What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (Full Version)

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celticfirelite -> What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/1/2006 8:59:37 PM)

Greetings Masters,
Greeings Mistresses,
Greetings slaves,
This one may get flamed for this but this one wanted to know what others thought. this one has  had a disscussion with a Master friend about this..
This girl  thinks a Master is a Master because he is a leader,dominant,into control,and has lots of experience in being a Dom first.  A  "old Guard' Master once told me that the title of Master just can't be claimed until a Dom has EARNED the right to be called Master.
This is similar to karate. one is not called Sensei until he has "paid his dues' by earning each belt and working his way up.The Master of anything denotes skill and experience in any given area.( it means to be highly skilled at something to the degree of being the best.)
Calling ones self or declairing oneself a Master, is coming from online playing,chat rooms ,forums and such.Many are Doms and consider themselves now Masters as they think they are. even if they are not that experienced..

Disclaimer:  This one may get flamed for saying this ,but this was TOLD to this one by an OLD GUARD Master this statement is NOT mine but his, but this one can agree as to his point of view.
Slaves:
Making a slave or sub is a natural process. This one believes there is a predisposition for it deep within our psychie. Many people in positions of power really long for the giving up of control to another as a release. This one feels it has always been there..inside her. This coupled with environmental ,and family factors ,has brought about this ones needs for surrender to her "higher authority " This one was raised that men are the leaders and were deferred to in the home.Men were obeyed in mariage and had the last word on issues,and were catered to, in this ones family.
This one ,like many other nillas, turned to God and religion for "this fix"of total surrender. Now that this one has  "discovered this lifestyle" is an actuality, (not just a figment of her imagination) she has been able to find and surrender to her real true Master. What a joy! This one feels a deep sense of relief to know she can finally live the life she has wanted.
Be well Masters                                                                                                 Be well Mistresses,                                                                                             Be well slaves,
melinda {MH}                                                                                             Property of Hassan                                                                     

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a mans slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." John Norman - Magicians of Gor





LuckyAlbatross -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/1/2006 9:06:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticfirelite
This girl  thinks a Master is a Master because he is a leader,dominant,into control,and has lots of experience in being a Dom first.  

Except that vanillas, subs, slaves and switches are all of those things also- except perhaps the lots of experience being a dom thing.

quote:

This one may get flamed for saying this ,but this was TOLD to this one by an OLD GUARD Master this statement is NOT mine but his, but this one can agree as to his point of view.

Well unless this person was a gay male and very much older than you are...then whatever they call themselves isn't "true old guard" either.

quote:

This one was raised that men are the leaders and were deferred to in the home.Men were obeyed in mariage and had the last word on issues,and were catered to, in this ones family.

So we're coupling small limited box definitions for subs and doms AS WELL as combining sexual stereotypes and limitations.  If you're gonna go, go all the way!

quote:

This one ,like many other nillas, turned to God and religion for "this fix"of total surrender. Now that this one has  "discovered this lifestyle" is an actuality, (not just a figment of her imagination) she has been able to find and surrender to her real true Master. What a joy! This one feels a deep sense of relief to know she can finally live the life she has wanted.

Congrats, and do enjoy.
quote:

Be well Masters                                                                                                 Be well Mistresses,                                                                                             Be well slaves,
melinda {MH}                                                                                             Property of Hassan              

But not switches?  Hmph.

Sure, people believe "true doms" are this and "true subs" are that.  The problem is that whatever definition you can come up with, I can show you a dozen people who break out of that completely.  You can either tell them that they aren't who they claim to be, or that your definition isn't quite as solid as you like.

I can definitely tell you that "Old Guard" was around a heck of a lot longer before Gor and goreans wouldn't be very welcome in the atmosphere- they'd have to be ok with men submitting to men to start with.




Caretakr -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/1/2006 10:30:25 PM)

A Master simply has the ability to control and maintain a slave. We do this consensually now,-since it is illegal to keep individuals in servitude against thier wills. So the supplicant for the slave postion must have a desire to serve, and a thourough understanding of what prefferences and lifestyle the Master has-to be able to make an informed decision to commit to being enslaved.

"Other" titles refer to abilities in various bdsm play,etc.......so you may have a Master of sadism, bondage yadda, yadda, that are recognized as such by a community. This waters down the real Meaning of Mastery to truly ridiculous levels.

But at  the heart of it, I think of Master as being synonymous with "Owner". Rather than the watered down "give myself a fancy moniker" way it is done now. Some Owners are self taught, others are mentored to be so.

The defining thing being,they can, and will, manage and keep a servant.

I agree with your personal  description of a slave entity-but they need an Owner to express thier natures fully.




SirDarkside357 -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 12:18:14 AM)

What exactly was the question?

Darkside




CreoleCook -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 1:02:54 PM)

Simple terms for complex questions... in the simplest terms, perceptions are where people get these terms.  I know many a man who call themselves Master, but are not proficient enough to teach.  I know women who call themselves Dominatrix, who believe all male submissives deserve pain, and suffering.  I c an tell you how this term means this, and that term means that, but its all bullshit.  How I perceive the Lifestyle is bound to be different from the way you perceive it.  If anything, the hard part is just finding someone you share common interests with.

My nickel.
Christian




litleone8620 -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 1:26:57 PM)

My reply button isn't working so i have to use fast reply:

You shouldn't try to define what makes a dominant or submissive, the answers are too complex.

I can't answer the Master question since i am obviously not one.

I don't yet know how i feel about making a slave is a natural process. Some say they were born submissive. Some say they learned to love it.

BTW, LA has sound advice, and i couldn't have said better




TolerableCruelty -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 1:36:17 PM)

quote:

I can definitely tell you that "Old Guard" was around a heck of a lot longer before Gor and goreans wouldn't be very welcome in the atmosphere- they'd have to be ok with men submitting to men to start with.

Old Guard was around a bit before the mid-60's I'm sure.... though I don't know why Goreans wouldn't be welcome. Old Guard was a very highly structured and protocol oriented enviroment, from what I've heard.... same as Gorean settings. Of course, I've not talked to any of the old time Leathermen from the OG... so this is just basically third hand gossip, as far as I'm concerned.
However, Goreans aren't homophobes as you'd like to believe. There are in fact male slaves in Gor... one or two that post on the Gorean boards here, as a matter of fact. Not to mention I know of a well respected Gorean that happens to be looking to add a kajirus to His home. A slave is a slave... no matter the gender.

And to the OP... in My opinion...

what makes a Master... accountability for their actions and the actions of those under them.
what makes a slave.... obedience.


well wishes,
T.R.




celticfirelite -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 6:03:55 PM)

Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings slaves,
Thank you All who have posted thus far. With so many people telling this one all sorts of things (as this one is still learning) This one wanted  to get a better understanding of these definitions. This one was Not trying to exclude any switches,but was more intersted in getting to the real truth of what defines a Master in Your words.
This one got into a conversation on a chat about this and wanted put this out for opinions.
Yes this was an older man in his late 60's but not gay. ( the old guard Master) This one certainly doesn't want to "pigeon hole anyone" but is learning about others opinions,definitions and ways of doing things. This one doesn't take any offence in this learning process at all, but welcomes the opinions of others who have been here longer and know more . The only way to know about misinterpretation is to ask. Thank you All.
Be well Masters,
Be well Mistresses,
Be well slaves,

melinda {MH}
Property of Master Hassan.
House of Hassan




CrappyDom -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 6:31:23 PM)

REAL old guard leatherman would kick any gorians ass I have ever seen and would never put up with their pansy ass bullshit.  Heck, your average drag queen in high heels could kick the ass of every gorian I have ever met.

Ironbear being an exception of course, but there is ALWAYS an exception.

As for the rest, I am proudly a fake dom because of "real" doms...




TolerableCruelty -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 6:33:22 PM)

you've obviously not met the same Goreans that I have.

well wishes,
T.R.




Caretakr -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 6:43:38 PM)

Grins...Most of the Gorean Men that I know have real swords-and they know how to use them.




CrappyDom -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 6:55:08 PM)

Starts peeing in the snow...

My sword was hand forged by Jim Hrisoulas and if you don't know who he is, you don't know enough to even unsheath one against me.  Despite having a boring amount of guns, it has always been the only weapon I keep at my bedside. 

My money is still on the drag queen though, especially if a gorian says she looks fat in that dress.




CrappyDom -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 6:56:27 PM)

Bottom line, most people who whine about others calling themselves masters without earning it are full of shit at best and are shit at worst.




gooddogbenji -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 6:56:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Starts peeing in the snow...



*Sings the Canadian National Anthem*

"Peeing in the snow, looking down the whole, that's the only thing to me that looks like spring"

Yours,


benji




TolerableCruelty -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 7:30:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Bottom line, most people who whine about others calling themselves masters without earning it are full of shit at best and are shit at worst.


Then its kind of ironic that you keep incessantly whining about how the Goreans aren't really Masters, isn't it ?

Regards,
T.R.




MasterCurios -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 8:05:52 PM)

the title Master is earned either by your slave or your peers in R/T....you are correct many flagrantly use the title to boost their stature.i have earned the title from both but donot flaunt it..although i have the title i never demand /instruct others to call me as such they do it because i have earned it   many call me Master ////tons call me Sir/////tons call me Curios all suit me fine....




CrappyDom -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 8:33:02 PM)

T.R.

Perhaps reading comprehension is another trait you lack.  While I think most gorians are idiots, I have never complained about what they call themselves.  Well not quite true, I have never whined about whatever BDSM titles they choose to cling too but I do laugh when they thump their chests about being warriors.




candleTC -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 8:40:22 PM)

While Master and i were just online friends, i would always refer to Him as Master TolerableCruelty, or Master TC.. out of the pure and utmost respect i had for Him, even then.  However, when we finally met,  it was literally instantanious that i dropped the TolerableCruelty and just called Him, "Master".  Even when i was only here to be nothing more than a room mate in the beginning.  i understand that when i began calling Him " Master" that i was implying that He was *my* Master, and in hindsight... maybe that's how i felt.. It was just a very natural thing to do for me...  and scary at the same time, since i had never really refered to any of my other "masters" ( using that term loosely at this point ) as such.  I didn't feel that type of connection with them.  I can honestly say, that the only time i have called Him by His given name is when i am referring to Him when talking to my grandmother.  Every other time, no matter with whom or where i am speaking ... it is always.. "Master".... ( well, except the occasional times at work, when i *do* call Him ... " my sexy hunk of man meat" .. merely for the reactions i get when i say it.. hahah..( but gawd, look at Him.. it's true.. heh. ) )

Just my thoughts and personal opinion.. Yes, calling One Master is an earned thing for the most part, however, i believe that when One is capable of "taking" one's submission... that Title has been earned... Out of respect, i will still refer to One as Master so and so... such as MasterCrappyDom... Has He earned the title of Master... Eh.. i don't know.. not really in my eyes, however, when talking to Him, the respect will still be shown... ( if that makes sense.. and i really was only using Him as an example.... )

happy fourth..

~beth

~edited to only add, i take back that example.... can i drop the "dom" too??? ~ ( bats my eyelashes... and smiles sweetly )




LadyHugs -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 9:16:56 PM)

Dear celticfirelite, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
Those who wish to 'master' anything, must go through a process or journey to reach their goal as to be seen as a master.  This is true with many skills, such as "master electrician" and or master swordsmith, to whom must learn the art of taking raw materials, folding the iron, hammering and molding, shaping, polishing, etching and installing the furniture of the end product--the sword.  What is learned from the teachers is then what becomes first hand knowledge to the student.  In our community, people master the skills of the tools which are an extention of our bodies.  Our behavior, attitude and "intent" is mastered through time and recognized by peers and or the community.
 
Indeed, the times of "Old Guard" has many myths and or legend sorts.
Since there were no support or education groups, the education and skills were exchanged within a group of people.  When shared with others, the inspiration spread.  Originally, the Old Guard is associated with an organized group of Gay men within a motorcycle group, to which much of the leather attire had real purpose in riding motorcycles and the military surplus from World War II and spoils of war brought home by those who served and or related to such.  Of course groups branched, changed, modified, grew and is alive.
 
As with any organized group, there will be protocols.  When they work, they are kept.  Leaders were elected and or bestowed.  Those who had dominant qualities were gifted with leather.  Some groups adopted more civilian protocols but, for many the military protocols were well known and did not need to be retaught.  Most were veterans of World War II, Korea and other conflicts.  A lot of 'leather history' can be accessed with the Leather Library and Vi Johnson.
 
One thing that runs consistantly through, is those who wish to lead must first learn to follow.  This can be seen through global history and global military history, to which elements of domination and submission are evident.  Knowing one's craft creates a master.  And, those who acknowledge an individual as a master, are indeed empowered to bestow the title of Master.  Some titles of Master or Mistress are associated by a task to which they are in charge; e.g. Mistress of the Robes, Master of Ceremonies, Master at Arms, etc.
 
What has happened via the Internet, chat rooms and the like, is that people who have craved to be accepted have often used other people's experiences, writings, opinions, comments and such, as well as identifying themselves as "Old Guard."  Some heterosexual men often threw this up in chat rooms as to gain some foot hold into the group and accepted in a very clique and judgmental groups.  It manifests here on CM as well.  Unfortunately, it is everywhere.  Since "Old Guard" has been unmasked, the latest 'fad' to gain acceptance has been "European Trained."  Sadly, people seemingly have to use such falsehoods at times as to just gain a bit of respect by those who profess such but, do not proffer it.  Although I do not agree with the behavior, I do realize why it does happen.
 
What might be worth considering, is when Old Guard/Old School is offered in communications back and forth, is more of a fond feeling of what was a behavior and or attitude that fostered competency in their skills, knowledge, behavior, attitude and responsibilities/duties of being either a Master and or slave.  Each generation of individuals might be considered "guards."  When we reach our aged days, we may be indeed considered "old" as we pass the torch to a new generation; thus can be accurately be considered "old guard."
 
Like with anything dear lass, titles and the accustomed respect, status and such is subjected to abuse and misuse; much like anything else in life.  The best that can be done, is to not give such 'power.'  With the ability to reach into the Internet and be well read; it behooves us to keep in mind, that every book, every article, every post and every demonstration, presentation and or taught and or spoken on the subject of M/s, D/s, S&M, BDSM are just that person's (persons') opinions, experiences, observations and the like.  So, it is wise to not live through books and such but use books and such to create the tools to make one's life.
 
As far as the predisposition of women to be enslaved by men, does not sit agreeably with me.  Several cultures promote matriarchael power. History has demonstrated that female monarchy regimes have been extremely powerful and have heavy impact in history and made history.  Warrior-queen-druidess Boudica, to whom lead her people to defeat the Roman Legions, totally outnumbered.  Queen Elizabeth I, a might in her own right, Queen Victoria, Queen Mary, Queen Mary -Queen of Scots.  Czarina Elizabeth who succeeded Czar Peter the Great and Czarina Catherine the Great; Hatshepsut the first female King and or Pharaoh of Egypt around 1479 BC; Joan of Arc, also known as Jeanne d'Arc or The Maid of Orleans and or Jeanne la Pucelle.  The youngest current queen is Queen Rania of Jordan (b. August 31, 1970). She is married to the head of state, King Abdullah Bin Al-Hussein.  One of the best known is HRH Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of England.
 
In modern times, to be enslaved would not be the pleasure if it was entrenched into the past measures of what slavery was throughout history.  In today's enviorment, there are many liberties; to which women of the past were subjected to by a patriarchal system when entrenches themselves into civilization, society, military, religious and or Imperial status/station, were denied.  What is interesting to me, that Kings and Queens have come and gone throughout civilization yet, some of the most profound and enduring philosophies are from two slaves.  Aristotle and Socrates--two male slaves.
 
What is most important of all lass, is that you found your joy.  It matters little to me how you achieved it and or my personal beliefs.
The fact that you have discovered and found your happiness is all that matters to me as a member of the human race.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 
 
 
 
 
 




LadyHugs -> RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of a sub/slave? (7/2/2006 9:32:20 PM)

Dear CrappyDom, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
May I proffer for consideration, that perhaps the gentlemen who identify themselves as "warriors" and identify with the style of their practice of D/s and or M/s; may have indeed seen active military service currently and or perhaps are veteran of past military services.
 
Many a veteran of the branches of military organizations, e.g. Navy, Marines, Army, Air Force, Coast Guard and Merchant Marines identify as 'once a [insert branch of service] always a [insert branch of service].
 
I am very aware of several warriors both male and female, who have served and or currently serve; being members of the community at large.  These individuals have also taken from the experience, as to apply it to their lives and towards the future and or relationships.
 
Since the term 'warrior' identifies one who fights; perhaps all of us (us in a most general of terms and manners) can be deemed a warrior, when there is something passionate to fight for, such as a 'just' cause.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 
 
 




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