Mxybunny
Posts: 17
Joined: 3/30/2012
Status: offline
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Jetonly,
Thanks for your response. I'm actually quite fascinated by the psychology of sexuality and routinely research things like this to better understand them. Yes, sometimes it can be difficult or a little disenchanting to break it down to a simple formula, but when you are thoroughly imprinted with a fetish - believe me, there's no escaping it. It always comes back. Understanding it, however, can be a fascinating journey of self-discovery. I just wish there weren't so many people who look down on these things just because they don't (or have no desire to) understand them.
Becomingv, "why not dress up as a weak male".
Well how does a weak male dress? For that matter, have you never seen male subs before? There is no lack of them, believe me. The crossdressing fetish contains elements of trans-fluidity. I am combining a humiliation fetish with a mild transsexual inkling. In that respect, it's absolutely no different from non-fetishistic crossdressers who also don't completely identify as female. It's the exact same thing, I just happen to also have a humiliation fetish. You say it's fine to dress up a woman as a "slut", what if I WANT to be that WOMAN? Suddenly it's sexist because I was born a male? Now who's being prejudice?
Why do we have to assign so many unnecessary restrictions and baggage to what other people can enjoy?
I'll direct my the rest of reply to Sylvere, but first a note to the talking heads all making the same response to my "escaping the burdens of manhood", line. Again, this is communication 101. Every car is a vehicle, not every vehicle is a car. If you can't tell the difference between me saying "escaping the burdens of MY gender is liberating" and my saying "YOUR gender has no burdens" - then you're an idiot. This is not a complicated sentence. You shouldn't be having this much difficulty inferring basic meaning.
Does a sissy, when dressing up, automatically inherit the entire mantel of "woman"? Of course not. The idea is absurd. What they are doing is stepping into a controlled role. I'm not saying I would have no burdens if I were a woman, because I am NOT a woman. I am relinquishing the burdens of manhood by abandoning, temporarily, that gender. My stepping into the feminine role, however, is little more than a surface change. If I were an actor, and I play a business man - do I suddenly have an actual business to worry about? Again, this shouldn't be so hard to comprehend. Why assume that my claim that I like the liberation from male responsibilities is automatically a suggestion that females have none? Are you really that insecure?
It's positively staggering that so many people made this same response. Really? Did none of you think it through at all?
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ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
Don't you just love it when people assume someone posting about a topic has no experience with it, with gender identity issues, with feminist history, or with gender studies in general?
Ah, so it's okay for you to tell me what's going on in my head, but if I do the same to you suddenly that's an imposition. I see how it works now. Are there any other rules you get to invent about how talking works, or should I just wing it?
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LOL, clearly you are not one of the people who is not talking out of his ass as you have already demonstrated. But sure, have a go.
I do so love jousting with a double negative. Nice touch with the condescending laugh, by the way. Now I feel all intimidated, and boy did you bolster your credibility!
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Apparently, you don't understand how internalized misogyny works in a cultural context. Even women can and do feel the effects of internalized misogyny. The beauty, fashion, and weight-loss industries are fueled by it. It's what drives slut-shaming, body policing, and a culture that teaches women "don't get raped" instead of teaching men "don't rape," blames rape survivors for what they were wearing or how much they drank, and silences men who are raped, forcing them not to report their assaults unless they want to be ridiculed for a lack of masculinity.
I understand every single one of those concepts you mentioned. None of them have anything to do with the topic we are talking about. I remind you again. What you are doing is is effectively telling me why I get off on what I get off to and then telling me I'm wrong when I correct you. I would normally, at this point, conjure some kind of example to illustrate how this feels by making a presumption about you, but you already overreacted so severely to the simple act of me telling you that you don't understand this fetish that clearly you have an exposed nerve when it comes to that. So really, you should know better.
I say it again, this fetish has *NOTHING* to do with misogyny, internalized or not. We do not look down on women even subconsciously, we idolize them to the point of emulation. This is the furthest from misogyny you can get. But you can't get past the fact that it involves humiliation, even when it's spelled out to you that it isn't BEING FEMALE that is humiliating, it is LOSING MASCULINITY. Gender may be binary to some people, but this is not a binary issue. Not being positive isn't the same as being negative - there is always a neutral option.
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It does involve some degree of gender typecasting, I'll grant you that. But only in so much as one needs to be able to define a male from a female.
Thanks for making my point for me.
Are you under the impression that I made some kind of slip-up there? What a bizarre reaction. I made myself very clear. Yes it does involve loaded imagery, the ability to distinguish male from female, at least in terms of gender, not necessarily sex. You find this offensive? Think about that. You're saying that the mere presence of gender is inherently sexist. Every crossdresser, by your reasoning, including the non-fetishistic ones are being sexist because they are somehow propagating a stereotype by identifying gender characteristics they want to express. Do you also judge every woman who wants to look like a woman? You judge men who want to look like men? You've found a way to be so trigger-happy that both cis and trans people are all ubiquitously offensive. My word. Where does this phantom prejudice of yours end? Are you the only one on the planet who got it right? We have much to learn from you!
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If you're going to call that sexist then you might as well call everyone who calls you "ma'am" or "miss" as sexist for *presuming* upon your high and mighty gender based on their own preconceptions.
Actually, yes, to presume my gender identity is a very cissexist thing to do.
And that's where your problem lies. Yes, gender is fluid, but it is no more fair for you to run around telling everyone else to abandon all concept of gender and talk in neutral pronouns and genderless language on the off-chance that some overly-sensitive feminazi get unduly offended. Here's how gender works. If you appear as a female, people will generally regard you as a female. If you appear as a male, people will generally regard you as a male. If you are trans, people will (or at least should) generally regard you by the gender you are obviously emulating. Where is the problem here? You want the entire world to change the way they act for your sake? You're the only one with the problem, if it bothers you that badly, you're the one who needs to change.
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It's not about hating women - it's about LOSING masculinity. What gets us off is not that we love humiliation and women are the ultimate form of humiliation, but rather, we love humiliation, and losing our sexual (gender) identity itself is the ultimate form of that.
And that is internalized misogyny. Congratulations on making my point for me, once again.
You obviously didn't actually read that properly before responding. That or you're being deliberately disingenuous, so take your pick. This is the problem. People like you read into things what you already expect to see. I tell you that losing MY gender is humiliating, all you hear is "that means MY gender is bad". I couldn't have made it any clearer that I was saying the EXACT OPPOSITE to how you chose to take it unless I branded it into your forehead.
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If you woke up tomorrow with a five-o'clock shadow, hairy legs and a nutsack wouldn't you feel humiliated?
Nope. Why would I? For one thing, men have greater social privilege than women. But more than that, it would be fun to see what it was like to live as a man. I've often wanted to switch bodies with a guy for a week just for the experience.
You're hearing the word humiliation in a harsher tone than it is being offered. I remind you, humiliation is something those in my position get off on, so it's not inherently the "worst thing ever" kind of humiliation that you seem to be interpreting it as. Call it embarrassment, or discomfort, whatever you want. We're talking about the fact that you're suddenly outside of your preferred or most natural paradigm. This is demonstrated even more clearly by your next remark, which I'm guessing was you fishing about in your holster for something that would put me in my place:
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Since I'm cisgender female, it would only be a problem if I couldn't change back, because then I'd have to suffer the indignity of transmisogyny on top my gender dysphoria. I know how traumatic that can be because my girlfriend is a trans* woman and I have several trans* friends. I would not wish that conflict on my worst enemy.
Oh I see. So you're saying that your trans woman girlfriend thinks being a man is terrible? She finds men repulsive? How sexist!
See how obnoxious that attitude is? That's how you've made yourself look, to me, in this conversation. Yet, the truth is, you understand better than most (or should at least) just WHY someone might be uncomfortable outside of their true gender. Your mistake is you're not looking at it from the right viewpoint. You're seeing this: "My girlfriend was a man, is now a woman, this person is a man also (kind of) becoming a woman, and finds it humiliating - therefore he thinks it should be humiliating to be my girlfriend!"
What you SHOULD be seeing is this: "My girlfriend IS a woman, was trapped in the body of a man and found that to be wrong. This person gets off, for whatever reason, on that sensation of wrongness, and is forcing themselves into that same situation, being trapped in the wrong gender." Understand the distinction. SHE identifies as a woman, I identify as a male. We are not directly equatable.
The perspective shift focuses on not thinking of me as a proxy for a trans person, but rather on thinking of a trans person as being true gender and a proxy for me, also as my true gender, both existing in the opposite gender role. She IS a woman, but was born with a birth defect that stranded her with the visage of a male. I can sympathize with that. But when I say I would feel just as uncomfortable trapped in the body of a woman - YOU call ME misogynistic! Never mind the fact that I happen to get off on that sensation, that's besides the point. You're effectively calling me a scumbag for reacting the exact same way YOUR girlfriend is reacting to the... Same. Damn. Thing.
And yet if I call you a sufferer of "internalized misandry" for not wanting someone to be stuck as a male (including yourself, according to your own words), what would your reaction be?
By the way you want to talk about gender equality? Misogyny is recognized by my spellcheck - misandry isn't. When was the last time you saw people complaining about the negative stereotypes WE have to live with? At least you guys got an equal rights movement. The male stereotype is less forgiving because it calls for behavior that squashes emotional expression. This is another reason I find it liberating to abandon the male role. I get to become a woman, and that means I get to be openly honest about feelings like vulnerability and desire for affection.
But nooooo, that's not me idolizing feminine characteristics. How could it be?! I'm a misogynist!
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So much gender essentialist BS crammed into such a short space. Go educate yourself about gender identity issues and why the gender binary is complete crap. Start here: http://tranarchism.com/2010/11/26/not-your-moms-trans-101/
Yeah that's not patronizing at all. Hey here's an idea - how about you don't convince yourself that you know everything about gender identity just because you have a few trans friends? Are you a sissy? No, I didn't think so. How about YOU go educate yourself about what goes on in OUR heads. Now how could you do that... oh yeah, maybe you could talk to one and actually LISTEN to what they're telling you instead of just dismissing everything they say as uneducated? You think you have nothing new to learn just because you've sampled SOME of the gender fluidity that this world has to offer?
How disgustingly myopic.
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Do you seriously not see the problem with wanting to become a weak female caricature instead of simply embracing femininity in all its forms? This is a perfect demonstration of internalized misogyny.
Yeah I'm getting the sense that you're the sort of person who says that every time they get caught in the rain or step on a crack in the pavement. You're telling me there's a PROBLEM with what I WANT? What about you? How many fetishes do you NOT have, including mine? Let's again flip your obnoxious attitude back at you. Do YOU seriously not see the problem with only enjoying the fantasies that you do? Why not simply embrace ALL forms of sexuality? Why are you so limited?
This is like those asshats who call people who "like asians but not latinos" sexual racists. You can't tell people WHAT to get turned on by. Sexuality is not a fucking political statement. It's an imprinted erotic fixation. Something that brings joy and excitement to those who participate in it. Leave it to someone like you to twist that into a window for a rant against non-existent prejudices.
I DO celebrate all forms of femininity. But not all forms turn me on to emulate them. Why? Because my fetish is HUMILIATION. Why would emulating a STRONG woman archetype titillate that part of my brain? The part that responds to HUMILIATION. What about those cis-gendered males who like being subservient to a strong woman? Why don't you tell them that they are also doing it wrong? That they should celebrate all aspects of masculinity, and that if they aren't turned on by being tops as well as bottoms then they are in some way guilty of prejudice against men?
Your
position
is
utterly
nonsensical.
Like all of your ilk, this boils down to you nor sharing or understanding a particular fetish, and rather than accepting it, turning a judgmental gaze upon it. And you justify it with these paltry appeals to your own limited experience with something only tangentially connected in the manner of a racist saying "I have lots of black friends". I'm not the one with the problem with judging others here - you are. You're just too self-certain to even consider it.
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No, it's not. The fact that you want to separate them is what is disingenuous. What makes one type of woman weak and another one strong has nothing to do with the woman, it has to do with misogynistic stereotypes.
That's INSANE. That's like saying "I can't possibly crash a car, I drive carefully. If I ever hit someone it must be because THEY were trying to hit ME". Women can't be weak without it being my fault? Are you fucking kidding me? Misogyny must be like the monster under the bed to you. You seem to be paranoid about it lurking in every shadow like some kind of metaphorical boogy man. Of course women can be weak, you bloody pineapple. Anyone CAN be weak. There are weak WOMEN, there are weak MEN. There are stereotypes across the board. We roleplay them because we desire to step out of our own stereotype and into another. That's the basis of all fantasy play.
You really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and I'm starting to realize that continuing this conversation with you is like trying to argue a christian out of a church. This isn't going to go anywhere.
I hope you enjoy living in your sexually repressed wonderland where everybody only enjoys the things you think they should enjoy and nothing you don't fully understand can possibly exist. Good luck with that.
< Message edited by Mxybunny -- 11/25/2013 1:22:19 AM >
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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 
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