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RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/23/2013 6:33:41 PM

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Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AaNiMaLl

This question is like asking, how do I find out who I am?

In any relationship the single most defining factor is going to be communication with your Master. You cannot find submission on your own.

And you find out who you are through self introspection.

You discover that you are submission through self introspection. It isn't something you're given by another person.

In fact doing it for someone else when it isn't authentic is a set up for failure.

You certainly can find submission on your own. And you should.

As far as choosing who merits your submission, you do that by taking long, hard looks at the other person and deciding if they deserve it or not.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to AaNiMaLl)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/23/2013 7:08:00 PM

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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Yes I have experience with strong-willed women and it takes a paradigm shift on your part. If your Master is experienced and familiar with this, he can provide the education, but you are the one that has to learn to change your perspectives. This book should be helpful:

The Surrendered Wife : A Practical Guide to Finding Intimacy, Passion, and Peace with Your Man
by Laura Doyle
Surrendering is coming to terms with reality--that YOU are the only one YOU can change. Doyle gives practical tips and tools for replacing critical, controlling, or nagging behaviors with respect, trust and gratitude. A surrendered wife bravely and courageously commits to making a loving, nurturing marriage the most important goal of all -- and she will receive that and so much more. This book is easy to read, practical, and best of all it WORKS!

There are many other books about submission and sLavecraft that are also very good. Take a look at the -=BDSM Book List=- link in my sig.

Seriously? We're recommending sexism now? I love submission, but I'd rather never submit again than follow the advice of anti-feminist claptrap like Ms Doyle. Just sayin'

Regardless of gender, that is what the OP requested . . . how to submit. The fact to book uses her own experience from her gender perspective does not devalue the education and relationship tools she has to offer. To deny her validity just because she is woman writing from a woman's perspective is your sexism, not mine or hers.

I believe in BDSM, M/s and D/s style relationships where authority and power exchange deny the equality of power for men or women, lesbians, gay, bisexual, transgender and hetro. It's not sexism or anti-feminism if it has nothing to do with gender but everything to do with believing Dominants should dominate and submissives should submit regardless of gender.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/23/2013 7:29:32 PM

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Joined: 4/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

I was in a 24/7 relationship, and while it took about 6 months for me to get used to "letting him have his way", it wasn't training that allowed me to submit, it was realizing that if I wanted this relationship to work, I had to do it his way, wheither I wanted to or not. He wasn't about to cave to me.

There is too much armchair philosophy in many of the responses, even though they are well intentioned, but I think you are quite spot on. The reality of doing someone's bidding is fun for play, but a pretty big challenge to maintain on a longer term basis. It's important for the dominant to be firm, even if it means that it will end the D/s based relationship. Otherwise it can't function anyway if it only exists as long as the sub is controlling the interaction. That can work in a play session, but not in a relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12
You know, submission isn't an act, its a state of mind. If you have that state of mind, then you'll do fine. As for deepening your submission, perhaps you need to step back and think about what that really means to you. I really don't think there are any techniques that can MAKE you more submissive. As for running around in a collar and leash, that doesn't make you submissive - it hopefully is something that you and your partner enjoy.

Enjoyment of both sides is important - that's why it's best if both dom and sub are compatible in terms of BDSM activities they like. If they enjoy the same things then it doesn't feel like pushing a rock up a mountain (there's more armchair philosophy for you).

(in reply to kiwisub12)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/24/2013 4:31:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Yes I have experience with strong-willed women and it takes a paradigm shift on your part. If your Master is experienced and familiar with this, he can provide the education, but you are the one that has to learn to change your perspectives. This book should be helpful:

The Surrendered Wife : A Practical Guide to Finding Intimacy, Passion, and Peace with Your Man
by Laura Doyle
Surrendering is coming to terms with reality--that YOU are the only one YOU can change. Doyle gives practical tips and tools for replacing critical, controlling, or nagging behaviors with respect, trust and gratitude. A surrendered wife bravely and courageously commits to making a loving, nurturing marriage the most important goal of all -- and she will receive that and so much more. This book is easy to read, practical, and best of all it WORKS!

There are many other books about submission and sLavecraft that are also very good. Take a look at the -=BDSM Book List=- link in my sig.

Seriously? We're recommending sexism now? I love submission, but I'd rather never submit again than follow the advice of anti-feminist claptrap like Ms Doyle. Just sayin'

Regardless of gender, that is what the OP requested . . . how to submit. The fact to book uses her own experience from her gender perspective does not devalue the education and relationship tools she has to offer. To deny her validity just because she is woman writing from a woman's perspective is your sexism, not mine or hers.

I believe in BDSM, M/s and D/s style relationships where authority and power exchange deny the equality of power for men or women, lesbians, gay, bisexual, transgender and hetro. It's not sexism or anti-feminism if it has nothing to do with gender but everything to do with believing Dominants should dominate and submissives should submit regardless of gender.

Sure, and as soon as she writes 'The Surrendered Husband', I'll be all for it.

The beauty of BDSM is that power is based on D or s, not male or female. In Doyle's world of biological essentialism, that kind of neautrality can only be dreamed of. It'd be like recommending a 19th century slave manual for a mixed race couple - bigotry is bigotry no matter how many parallels it shares with BDSM.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/24/2013 5:01:29 AM

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I'm going to have to read this so I can discuss it effectively - anyone have it on Kindle and willing to do a Kindle loan?

While I personally like to submit, I find global statements like this offensive:

...The underlying principle of The Surrendered Wife is simple: The control women wield at work and with children must be left at the front door of any marriage.

According to Doyle, the wife who chooses to surrender must learn to take care of herself first, overcome the desire ...to have more power, and abandon the myth of equality.

ETA - re missing freeway exits:

While she fully acknowledges that a few bills will go unpaid and a few deadlines or freeway exits will occasionally be missed, she also insists that surrendered wives will encounter less worry and fear, more money, and better sex.

Ok, I do struggle with the freeway exits. If he knows where he's going, he doesn't like me to point out the exit. But occasionally, he won't be paying attention, and it's helpful for me to point it out. The trick is knowing whether or not he knows.

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 11/24/2013 5:29:53 AM >

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/24/2013 7:29:21 AM

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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Yes I have experience with strong-willed women and it takes a paradigm shift on your part. If your Master is experienced and familiar with this, he can provide the education, but you are the one that has to learn to change your perspectives. This book should be helpful:

The Surrendered Wife : A Practical Guide to Finding Intimacy, Passion, and Peace with Your Man
by Laura Doyle
Surrendering is coming to terms with reality--that YOU are the only one YOU can change. Doyle gives practical tips and tools for replacing critical, controlling, or nagging behaviors with respect, trust and gratitude. A surrendered wife bravely and courageously commits to making a loving, nurturing marriage the most important goal of all -- and she will receive that and so much more. This book is easy to read, practical, and best of all it WORKS!

There are many other books about submission and sLavecraft that are also very good. Take a look at the -=BDSM Book List=- link in my sig.

Seriously? We're recommending sexism now? I love submission, but I'd rather never submit again than follow the advice of anti-feminist claptrap like Ms Doyle. Just sayin'

Regardless of gender, that is what the OP requested . . . how to submit. The fact to book uses her own experience from her gender perspective does not devalue the education and relationship tools she has to offer. To deny her validity just because she is woman writing from a woman's perspective is your sexism, not mine or hers.

I believe in BDSM, M/s and D/s style relationships where authority and power exchange deny the equality of power for men or women, lesbians, gay, bisexual, transgender and hetro. It's not sexism or anti-feminism if it has nothing to do with gender but everything to do with believing Dominants should dominate and submissives should submit regardless of gender.

Sure, and as soon as she writes 'The Surrendered Husband', I'll be all for it.

The beauty of BDSM is that power is based on D or s, not male or female. In Doyle's world of biological essentialism, that kind of neautrality can only be dreamed of. It'd be like recommending a 19th century slave manual for a mixed race couple - bigotry is bigotry no matter how many parallels it shares with BDSM.

Doyle seems like a square vanilla Christian heterosexual housewife. I am pretty sure she also has religious beliefs I do not agree with. But that does not undermine what she wrote about learning to surrender any more than her lack of writing the antithesis book, The Conquering Husband or companion books The Surrendered Husband, The Surrendered Lesbian Husband, The Surrendered Transsexual Husband etc. Seems a shame to waste or discount a good resource due to prejudice against the vanilla source.

And "the beauty of BDSM" is not always androgynous, asexual, SSC or politically correct. That is your prejudice.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/24/2013 10:10:16 AM

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ever think that maybe you just are not submissive?
When I hear of men and women like you I think they have this fantasy in their head but in reality they just are not submissive. They may like bedroom play or bottoming but not full time submission.

To me if you were submissive you really wouldn't have these issues and he wouldn't have to constantly be on your case.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to zushi)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/24/2013 10:12:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Yes I have experience with strong-willed women and it takes a paradigm shift on your part. If your Master is experienced and familiar with this, he can provide the education, but you are the one that has to learn to change your perspectives. This book should be helpful:

The Surrendered Wife : A Practical Guide to Finding Intimacy, Passion, and Peace with Your Man
by Laura Doyle
Surrendering is coming to terms with reality--that YOU are the only one YOU can change. Doyle gives practical tips and tools for replacing critical, controlling, or nagging behaviors with respect, trust and gratitude. A surrendered wife bravely and courageously commits to making a loving, nurturing marriage the most important goal of all -- and she will receive that and so much more. This book is easy to read, practical, and best of all it WORKS!

There are many other books about submission and sLavecraft that are also very good. Take a look at the -=BDSM Book List=- link in my sig.

Love this book and always recommend this as a must read.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/24/2013 10:28:01 AM

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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

ever think that maybe you just are not submissive?
When I hear of men and women like you I think they have this fantasy in their head but in reality they just are not submissive. They may like bedroom play or bottoming but not full time submission.

To me if you were submissive you really wouldn't have these issues and he wouldn't have to constantly be on your case.

Would you say I'm not submissive?

Because I experienced the desire to submit conflicting with my self identity that I had constructed for myself up until that point. Submitting conflicted against the environmental red tapes I had been raised with, it conflicted with my ideas of equality, it conflicted with my ideas of identity.

It took a combination of figuring out where my resistance came from and facing how those issues fit into where I wanted to be, to get to a point of being able to be in a relationship that was more than D/s in the bedroom. Then it took him showing me that he was up to handling the responsibilities and trust that I had handed over to him.

It takes a unique man to get me to submit. Maybe she just hasn't found the right man to fit her needs.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to littlewonder)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/24/2013 10:31:36 AM

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But I doubt you were constantly fighting your Dom, always pushing against everything he said, always wanting to have your own way. I just can't see that coming from you.

I guess I just don't understand those who fight against their personality. I don't understand why one would. What's the purpose?

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to OsideGirl)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/24/2013 10:39:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
And "the beauty of BDSM" is not always androgynous, asexual, SSC or politically correct. That is your prejudice.

100% agree.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/24/2013 10:47:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

But I doubt you were constantly fighting your Dom, always pushing against everything he said, always wanting to have your own way. I just can't see that coming from you.

Always? No. But, I struggled a lot. We would get to something that hit one of those tender points and I would balk (and it wasn't always pretty). I was very lucky that I found someone who had a deep well of patience.

Even coming into my current relationship, I thought I was ready to be with someone in a 24/7 situation...and even then we still had moments of struggle. (Truly, some of the smallest, stupid stuff was the hardest to let go) It really took time, self evaluation, constancy and trust for me to finally feel that I could truly just hand things over to him.

I came to the understanding that feminism means that we should be comfortable where we choose to be, rather than society telling us that there is black and white, and you're either one or the other.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to littlewonder)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/24/2013 11:06:21 AM

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It seems to me that your Dom is going in the wrong direction if he thinks it is your responsibility to find a way to be more submissive/obedient. While there is plenty you can learn about what it means to be a submissive, the only way to your submission is by believing in your heart, mind and soul that your Dom is worthy of that submission. He should understand this.

Being a proud, intelligent, confident and strong-willed woman is in no way a block to being submissive. In my opinion, women with those traits make the best subs/slaves. They understand more than most what it is they are being asked to surrender. And they know rather instinctively whether the Dominant they are with has what it takes or not. Obviously I do not know you or him, and that is irrelevant. Only you know deep inside whether he is worthy of you.

Two suggestions:
You should take a serious look into yourself and wonder what is making this so difficult.
Once having done that, you should have a long talk with your man about what it is that is making this so difficult. D/s is a partnership, do not let anyone tell you otherwise.

The very act of talking together should give you both insight. If not, then you might have a communication problem on top of everything else.

If there is a solution, both of you will be required to allow it to happen. If there is a solution, communication, frank open and honest is your best tool.

(in reply to zushi)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/24/2013 1:53:56 PM

MalcolmNathaniel

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-FR- but I have read all the responses, but they seem to be missing a major point: you want to submit more.

This may or may not work for you: Put on your highest heels and your skimpiest underwear. Then beg, don't ask BEG, for your master to make you do something you aren't comfortable doing. That seems to me what you are asking for. He may just tell you to shut up and do what you are already doing. He may tell you that you are now an ashtray. Just do whatever you are told and you will feel submissive.

You may not like the results of this test.

(in reply to directiveerror)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/24/2013 6:39:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zushi

Thank you for the replies so far...

Yes, I enjoy this part of our life, because this is one area where I don't have to take the lead.
However, this doesn't mean, that I'm very good at it... That's why I have to search for techniques that help me.

Sometimes what we want is not what we need. Being strong willed is not an excuse for not being very good at being submissive. My three girls are very strong willed. They use this aspect of their character to be more successful in their submission to me. It's a strength of character and not a weakness or hindrance.

It would seem your strong will is being used to resist being submissive to your partner. I would suggest you understand why you are being resistant.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to zushi)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/24/2013 7:40:25 PM

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Submission is just one word, there are others and maybe one of them may resonate easier with you.

Surrender and yield both come to mind.

Think about what these words mean to you.

All you need is willingness.
It doesn't need to be perfect.
As long as you have willingness... submission is a process.

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(in reply to zushi)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/24/2013 8:12:41 PM

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I enjoy your wise words. I have contracts of "surrender" with my slaves because the word more accurately describes what they have done. They surrendered their life to me.

My slave is not yet of zen mind so she stands outside herself occasionally in self-judgement. She talks to me about this when it happens and I explain to her that she is a good slave, and she is good enough for me because she has willingness. I also believe that slavehood and/or submission is a process.

< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 11/24/2013 8:13:12 PM >

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to angelikaJ)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/25/2013 6:20:09 AM

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I find that adopting a Quaker mindset of "standing aside" tends to help me. If I don't have any serious reservations, then I am willing to make sure I don't block the decision making process. It is my responsibility to express any concerns I have and then be at peace with the process. Here is a website with info on it if it interest you.

best,
sunshine

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/25/2013 8:48:53 AM

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^ thanks for link. I will take a consensus to gather input, but it is not 'Consensus Decision Making' in my world. A friend loves to reiterate the old adage about governing committees . . . "all arms and legs without a head."

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

RE: submission training for a proud woman - 11/25/2013 9:06:47 AM

Moonlightmaddnes

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Oh I know what you are talking about. I am strong willed, stubborn and my husband is prior military. After the military he worked several jobs that kept him away for most of the day so I had to take care of everything. There are times that the hardest thing in the world is to let him be in control. I do it, but wow do I have some interesting internal conversations sometimes. We have been married long enough that he usually knows what I am thinking too. I can't even misbehave in my head and get away with it. :)

_____________________________

Submission is a gift that must be earned. It can be given, but never taken

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

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