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freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The war on christmas (12/11/2013 8:17:54 AM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MariaB
You have so utterly missed the point of my post because you have this knee-jerk reaction to me saying, 'Its neither Christian or Pagan event even if its origins were such.'
Let me explain. The Pagans were here before the Christians and when the Christians wanted to convert the Pagans, they related their Christianity to the Pagan calender.
If that were the true facts, then christmas would be on the Solstice (21st December), not the 25th.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MariaB
They were very much Pagans and any historian, religious scholar or Pagan for that matter, will tell you so. You can google it if you want. Theres loads of information on the Roman Pagans.
Yep. And like all the crazy schollars and fuckwits out there, anything not specifically Jewish, Islamic, Catholic or Christian is wrongly labelled as "Pagan".
Nothing could be further from the truth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MariaB
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They worshipped idols of animals and the stars - Pagans don't and never have.
Really? are you sure about that. I think you need to do a bit more Pagan research.
And you are trying to preach this to a practising Pagan???
Perhaps your definition of Paganism is different to us Pagans.
Methinks you need to do more legitimate research and not believe most of what is written in the press.
Unfortunately for us, Paganism does not have a bible or other religious text for people to read and draw conclusions from or to quote. So what happens is they make up bullshit (like Pagans sacraficing children etc and calling us 'satanists') and spread that amongst their own zealots to disuade their flock from following it. Much of the so-called 'schollars' and other religious leaders (including various media) like to diseminate this crap to bolster their own agenda and to further subjucate their followers.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MariaB
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Pagans worship Mother Earth and her two side-kicks (holly and oak kings) and the cycle of the seasons.
Pagans, like the New-Age "tree worshipers" would never think of harming a tree by cutting it down (or digging it up) and bringing it indoors for decorating as that is certain death for the tree.
You're talking about the modern day Pagan and yes, the modern day Pagans are tree loving bunny hugging people but it wasn't always like this. If anything I lean strongly towards Paganism but its the modern Paganism that attracts me, not the Paganism of old.
I am more traditional (druid) Pagan than the modern Neo-Pagans.
Even so, old and new Pagans (even Wiccans), would not harm a tree in this manner.
They would decorate it where the tree grew, they would never take it inside.
Maybe some fucked-up people thought it was a good idea but a decent Pagan would never do that.
Again, this is probably to do with wrongly labelled people as being 'Pagan' when they aren't.
From Wiki (of all places) -
"The custom of the Christmas tree developed in early modern Germany with predecessors that can be traced to the 16th and possibly the 15th century, in which 'devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes'".
The bringing of trees into the home was a late Christian tradition, never a Pagan one.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MariaB
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All of those who died as a result of religious wars, oppression, and zealots with their own agenda.
I agree but there is a very specific date on the Roman Pagan calender and that date is what we now call Christmas day.
From what I was taught as a boy nearly 5 decades ago, the Romans deliberately picked the 25th because it coincided with a Pagan feast/festival.
At harvest time (and before Samhain), some of the fruit from the harvest was dried for the Solstice festival. There was no sensible way to preserve fruit except to dry it or pickle it in some alcoholic brew.
When the Solstice came round, part of the ceremony was to bring the fruit 'back to life' by rehydrating it in alcohol where it was left for 3 days to reconstitute itself and to sacrifice the fatted calf (and almost certainly several wild boar at the same time) where it was left to hang for that time.
I believe (though I haven't seriously questioned it or researched it), the idea was that Mother Earth would transfer some of the life-energy of the sacrificed beasts into the fruit (ergo, a full life-cycle). After 3 days, when the sun went completely out of Solstice focus, the beef and boar were cooked (usually on an open spit-roast) and the reconstituted fruit was formed into a log-shaped cake.
When the beef was cooked, the beast(s) were divided up amongst the local community and together with local veg of the season, a feast ensued followed by the (intoxicating) log cake.
This is our Yuletide celebration (Yule).
Which is why my celebration is always hot beef on 25th (with log cake) followed by cold pork on 26th... and 27th, 28th.... etc.
The Romans just jumped on the bandwagon for that date because it was convenient for them in an effort to encapsulate them within their own festivities.
Unfortunately for them, no true Pagan would ever follow a deity or an idol for a 'god'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MariaB
I respect anyone who has a religion, though I'm not religious myself.
I don't mind any religion - as long as it isn't foisted upon me or fuckwits don't distort my own religious roots.
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