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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 3:00:00 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

But don't you ever ask yourself why the UK is the only country in Europe that behaves like this at Christmas?



Actually, no. I'd always assumed that the rest of Europe was the same way. Presumably not, then?


No its nothing like the British Christmas.

Britain has become fairly famous for starting the grand preparation for Christmas from the end of October. Its like Black Friday for 2 months.

I can go out into the city now and do some shopping but the shops will be empty. They don't even have their xmas decorations up yet (miserable gits!!). Last week I was in the UK and a trip into town undoubtedly resulted in meeting frustrated and hyperactive angry shoppers. When I lived in England, by mid December I found myself just wanting Christmas to be over and done with.

Christmas is what numbs us from the realities. Its about spending money we don’t have and buying needless crap nobody really needs.

I recently read an article that said, the average British parent spends over £300 on each child and most children have a toy collection worth a whopping thousand quid and the really sad thing is, most of those parents are in debt… Why?!?

My mums got 15 grandchildren and she spends £50 on each of them even though most never bother to send a thank you card or call her to say they got their gift. I asked her why she sends so much and she said, 'well they can't buy anything for less than that can they?!!'

My niece started buying her baby daughter Christmas presents in the summer and she recently wrote on face book, ‘Santa already has 7 full sacks of presents for baby xxxxx…’ She’s a one parent family on benefits. She lives on the bread line. I fully intended sending the baby something but after reading that I thought, ‘what’s the point’? Maternal love makes us turn a blind eye to indulgent waste and this is indulgent waste on a grand scale.






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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 3:29:48 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

I can go out into the city now and do some shopping but the shops will be empty. They don't even have their xmas decorations up yet (miserable gits!!). Last week I was in the UK and a trip into town undoubtedly resulted in meeting frustrated and hyperactive angry shoppers. When I lived in England, by mid December I found myself just wanting Christmas to be over and done with.


I've just been reading stuff that has said Brits spend even more, on average, than Americans on Christmas. We may even be the biggest Christmas spenders in the world. (I'd love to see some comparative figures.) I do remember a while ago reading some article that said, basically, it's got to the stage where our entire retail sector depends upon the Christmas spending orgy. Given this, it's not surprising that the big retailers, with full support from all governments, will pump the 'empty your pockets!' message as much as they can.

Something I *have* found in passing: the divorce rate is highest in January of each year. This is put down to a combination of debt, enforced intimacy leading to family arguments and post-Christmas depression.

A friend of a friend once took himself, a radio and a rucksack full of booze and food to a cottage up in the Highlands. He stayed there from the 24th December to New Year's Day, on his own. I was astonished - how could he spend Christmas in complete solitude? But, reportedly, he loved it. I keep thinking of that idea and feel myself gradually warming to it.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 12/13/2013 3:30:04 AM >

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 3:48:40 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		According to this survey:http://freakonomics.com/2011/12/13/christmas-spending-by-country/ Britain comes in fourth after Switzerland. We should keep in mind though, that its normal for the Swiz to buy holidays in the mountains during Christmas and new skis are very expensive. If their Christmas present is a holiday and new ski equipment then they are going to come in high.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 3:49:55 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I've just been reading stuff that has said Brits spend even more, on average, than Americans on Christmas. We may even be the biggest Christmas spenders in the world. (I'd love to see some comparative figures.)






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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 3:51:43 AM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		Ah. Here are some figures:

http://business.time.com/2011/12/19/which-country-is-the-stingiest-with-christmas-gifts-whos-the-most-generous/

The average Luxembourgian spends the most. However, Luxembourgians are generally wealthy people. According to this page, the average American spends more as a proportion of his/her wealth.

I guess what hits me the most, though, is that all the websites I've looked at speak of high Christmas spending as a 'good thing'. It's 'good for our economy' - apparently. But, presumably, by 'our economy' this refers to those who are being paid the money for the goods, not those who are spending it. Well, natch.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 3:53:04 AM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		Cheers FD - crossed posts - but those figures do seem to mesh with mine.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 3:58:25 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Status: offline 		What amazes me is that the Irish spend more than us but their country has only just come out of the austerity doldrums (this week) after the big EU loan they had a few years back.

How the fuck could they afford it??? 

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 4:46:00 AM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		Christmas that wonderful time of year when people go into debt to buy stuff to prove to people how much they love them, go to parties, get drunk, attempt to drive home, and get in an accident, probably kill someone.

Commercialized, politicized, and turned into a "what do I get" holiday.

I have my great great grand father's journal.

Granted, he was a tobacco farmer in the mountains of Western North Carolina, but the Christmas of 1878, he talked about how happy he was that his son's family came all the way from Asheville (about 60 miles away) for Christmas.

The Christmas of 1944 was special for the family because my grandfather came home for leave after flying 25 missions in a B17 over Europe, before being assigned as an instructor pilot to train others to fly B17's.

Somehow the holiday went from celebrating Christ's birth and being with family to measuring happiness by the gifts people receive.

But then I am a cynic.


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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 4:56:50 AM   
PeonForHer


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Oh, and somewhere in my searching I came across the figure that the average Briton puts on 0.8 of a kilo over Christmas. About two pounds.

Right, I'm off to the gym. I already feel like a fat git.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 5:33:09 AM   
Zonie63


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Status: offline 		I suppose I got suckered into Christmas as a kid. When they tell you, "If you're good, Santa will give you presents on Christmas," what else can you say? "Wow, sounds good to me." It wasn't until I reached a later age that I realized how much I had been hornswaggled.

I have nothing against Christmas, although it really doesn't have much meaning for me. I have friends and family members for whom Christmas holds a great deal of meaning, and for them, it seems to be the most important day of the year. Even as a religious holiday, Good Friday and Easter are actually far more important, yet all we do is hide eggs on Easter - there's no big "Easter Shopping Season" as there is with Christmas.

I can understand the opposition to the commercialization of Christmas and the general insanity which seems to pervade society at this time of year. Some people talk about the "true meaning of Christmas," which might be about giving, love, peace, and good will towards all (but only during Christmastime, apparently).


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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 6:49:59 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

What amazes me is that the Irish spend more than us but their country has only just come out of the austerity doldrums (this week) after the big EU loan they had a few years back.

How the fuck could they afford it??? 



The Irish have much bigger families. My great grandmother had 18 children and my grandmother had 9. My family on my maternal side is absolutely huge.

I think the scale is on an average over a capital city. The French spend nothing like the English, not the wider part of France anyway. Parisians are known to be big spenders

If I ask a French friend what they got for Christmas, they will say something like, I got some flowers or I got a box of chocolates and if you ask a French kid they will tell you about small gifts or a big gift that was bought by the entire family.


< Message edited by MariaB -- 12/13/2013 6:54:23 AM >

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 7:21:45 AM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

What amazes me is that the Irish spend more than us but their country has only just come out of the austerity doldrums (this week) after the big EU loan they had a few years back.

How the fuck could they afford it??? 



The Irish have much bigger families. My great grandmother had 18 children and my grandmother had 9. My family on my maternal side is absolutely huge.

I think the scale is on an average over a capital city. The French spend nothing like the English, not the wider part of France anyway. Parisians are known to be big spenders

If I ask a French friend what they got for Christmas, they will say something like, I got some flowers or I got a box of chocolates and if you ask a French kid they will tell you about small gifts or a big gift that was bought by the entire family.




My mom's family was Pennsylvania dutch, My grandmother had 14 kids that lived, 17 total. One died of pneumonia, one of small pox and one died of measles.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 8:24:58 PM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

JLF, schools are already seperated from religion yet allow muslims to pray in school!


Sure, just like they allow Christians, Jews, Hindus, and all other faiths to pray in school.

quote:

I highly doubt that someone who says "Merry Christmas" or sings a Christmas song is....attempting to "establish" a religion.


If you're forcing your students to sing songs celebrating the birth of your chief religious figure, then yeah, you are attempting to establish a religion in your classroom.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 8:28:40 PM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
quote:


They worshipped idols of animals and the stars - Pagans don't and never have.

Really? are you sure about that. I think you need to do a bit more Pagan research.

And you are trying to preach this to a practising Pagan???
Perhaps your definition of Paganism is different to us Pagans.
Methinks you need to do more legitimate research and not believe most of what is written in the press.


The word "pagan" literally means someone that believes in polytheism. Neo-pagans have a lot of additional beliefs that have a lot to do with (what little we know about) druidic traditions, Celtic legends, etc.... but there also were, or still are, other kinds of pagans in Rome, Greece, Africa, South America, China, Southeast Asia, Australia, etc.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 8:41:58 PM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

oh and this lil snippet from fox s megyn kelly
Megyn Kelly Really Wants The Kids To Know Santa And Jesus Are White
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/12/megyn-kelly-santa-white-jesus_n_4431613.html

She does raise an interesting question though: how do you change Santa's skin color now? Too well established, don't you think?


"Santa is magical and can change what he looks like." Maybe tell your kids something like "You know how Santa can read letters from kids all over the world, no matter what language they speak? He can also make himself look like people from that country."

When I was a kid, my dad's work always had a Christmas party, and the guy they had play Santa was black, at least some years. I don't remember it being an issue.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/13/2013 9:11:14 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		Alright, I have it on good authority that the guy is a jolly old elf, (read The night before Christmas) who has a sleigh pulled by eight tiny reindeer.

I have seen him portrayed as a cowboy, soldier, and even on a surf board.

The Brits call him father Christmas, and thus is portrayed as a joyful heavy set man with a beard and red robes.

And there are many more.

Personally, I consider him a threat to national security, a home invader, peeping tom and you really have to wonder about a guy that only dresses in red and hangs around reindeer and elves for 364 days a year.

I mean I enjoy kink, but elves? Reindeer? Dude that is going into areas that just are wrong.

And it dont matter how good you are, he does not always bring you what you ask for. I mean during my stoner years, I asked for 50 pounds of Kona Gold pot, and never got squat.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/14/2013 3:40:33 AM   
MariaB


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ORIGINAL: graceadieu

The word "pagan" literally means someone that believes in polytheism. Neo-pagans have a lot of additional beliefs that have a lot to do with (what little we know about) druidic traditions, Celtic legends, etc.... but there also were, or still are, other kinds of pagans in Rome, Greece, Africa, South America, China, Southeast Asia, Australia, etc.


Thank you grace.


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RE: The war on christmas - 12/14/2013 7:48:47 AM   
EdBowie


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Status: offline 		pagan (n.) ...late 14c., from Late Latin paganus "pagan," in classical Latin "villager, rustic; civilian, non-combatant" noun use of adjective meaning "of the country, of a village," from pagus "country people; province, rural district," originally "district limited by markers," thus related to pangere "to fix, fasten," from PIE root *pag- "to fix" (see pact). As an adjective from early 15c.

Religious sense is often said to derive from conservative rural adherence to the old gods after the Christianization of Roman towns and cities; but the word in this sense predates that period in Church history, and it is more likely derived from the use of paganus in Roman military jargon for "civilian, incompetent soldier," which Christians (Tertullian, c.202; Augustine) picked up with the military imagery of the early Church (e.g. milites "soldier of Christ," etc.). Applied to modern pantheists and nature-worshippers from 1908.

http://etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=pagan&searchmode=none

In a word, 'No'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

The word "pagan" literally means someone that believes in polytheism. Neo-pagans have a lot of additional beliefs that have a lot to do with (what little we know about) druidic traditions, Celtic legends, etc.... but there also were, or still are, other kinds of pagans in Rome, Greece, Africa, South America, China, Southeast Asia, Australia, etc.



< Message edited by EdBowie -- 12/14/2013 7:50:00 AM >

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/14/2013 11:07:17 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		Western Pagans tend to follow the Celtic line and even then, most don’t know what ancient Celts did because there is actually nowhere to look for accurate information. Modern Paganism is partly based on ancient myths and late medieval folk practices but Indian Chakras are not Celtic and neither are Egyptian Gods. Like it or not, Paganism reaches far and wide. Some modern Pagans are as stubborn as the Roman Catholic church and just like the RC, will throw shit on any concepts and theories they aren't familiar with.

Why not research and understand the ancient Pagans from around the world ?

http://library.thinkquest.org/28111/newpage1.htm

The ancient Roman religion is one of the most well known pagan religions. It was worshipped not only by the Romans, but by the various communities which were absorbed into the Roman empire. These communities added to the state religion with their own specific beliefs until it was a truly diverse and all encompassing religion. Throughout the modern world, the ancient roman religion is known as one of the world’s first and most famous pagan religions. It is the Roman and the Greek religions which are the basic from modern pagans take their beliefs.

Pagan religions believed in many gods and generally worshipped the earth, sea, sun, sky and various other elements of nature. The Romans were polytheistic and much of their lives were spent in a fervent effort to please their gods. The ancient Roman religion is one of the better known pagan religions.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/14/2013 11:49:57 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Status: offline 		I think the problem is the definition of the word "Pagan" itself.
It is derived from 14th century Latin and coined by the catholics.

It's akin to all the Evangelists, Catholics, Protestants, Jews et al, all being lumped into a singular definition of "Christian".
So when somebody spouts RC doctrine under the umbrella name of 'Christian', the other Christian faiths are going to take exception to it and say "we are...{whatever} but don't tar us with the RC doctrine crap" and quite rightly so.
The same is for Pagans. Whether Neo Pagan, Wiccan, Celtic, or other strain of Paganism, to spout the doctrines and bad behaviour of one particular sub-group and label it as 'Pagan' is a misnomer.
As a Pagan, more Celtic than Neo, I do not consider the Romans as being Pagan of any sort even though they coined the word - I don't accept their definition of what a Pagan is.
In just the same way that a Protestant, Evangelist and Catholic are all 'Christians', to any and each of those, they would not want to be associated with the other because the umbrella name is far too wide-reaching and they consider themselves to be more specific than the word defines.

ETA: I'm struggling to find the right word and phrases to explain why it irks me so much.
It's like the Catholics and Protestants fighting in Northern Ireland. They're all 'Christians' so why can't they get along?
Same with the Sunni and Shea; both Islamic but bitter enemies.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 12/14/2013 11:58:30 AM >

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