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RE: The war on christmas - 12/14/2013 12:24:09 PM

graceadieu

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Hmm, let's see what the dictionary has to say....

quote:

pa·gan
noun \ˈpā-gən\
Definition of PAGAN
1: heathen 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2: one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
3: neo-pagan
— pagan adjective
— pa·gan·ish adjective

Examples of PAGAN
<the Spanish conquistadores regarded the native peoples of the lands that they conquered as pagans who were uncivilized and inherently inferior>

Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary

So, yes.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/14/2013 12:35:26 PM

EdBowie

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Do you really think nobody understands what 'especially' means in the context of a dictionary? That nobody is capable of looking up the word 'heathen' and seeing that it has the same intent as the etymological dictionary's description of 'pagan'?

'Pagan' can be used in many ways, one of those ways is to refer to certain groups that were pantheistic. It is the fallacy of the excluded middle to claim that all pantheistic groups (say for example, Hindus) must be referred to as pagans.

Do you have some valid point?

quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

Hmm, let's see what the dictionary has to say....

quote:

pa·gan
noun \ˈpā-gən\
Definition of PAGAN
1: heathen 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2: one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
3: neo-pagan
— pagan adjective
— pa·gan·ish adjective

Examples of PAGAN
<the Spanish conquistadores regarded the native peoples of the lands that they conquered as pagans who were uncivilized and inherently inferior>

Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary

So, yes.

< Message edited by EdBowie -- 12/14/2013 12:38:51 PM >

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/14/2013 1:15:07 PM

jlf1961

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Look, the day we celebrate Christmas was a high feast day for Sol Evictus, the roman sun god.

The yule log and Christmas tree comes from pre christian Germanic tribal traditions.

Saint Nicholas is the patron saint of sailors, merchants, archers, thieves, children, pawnbrokers, students and prostitutes.

Sinterklaas, the other source for the Santa story has roots in the Norse religion, with parallels in the story of Odin.

While there are no references to the celebration of the birth of Christ in early christian writings, the recent winter storm in Israel provides more than enough proof that there were no shepherds in the fields in December tending flocks of sheep.

The closest parallel to a western holiday, is the pre christian feast at the winter solstice. In point of fact, in many parts of medieval Europe, Christmas was more of a feast to celebrate mid winter than the giving of gifts, Jesus was thrown in thanks to Constantine.

There is as much historic accuracy for Christmas traditions and the birth of Christ as there is in the Festivus for the rest of us.

Call it what it is, a reason for people to through parties in offices, homes and other places so folks can exchange gifts with people they wouldnt give the time of day to, or piss on if they were on fire the rest of the year, drive drunk and kill some pregnant woman.

Followed of course by New Years eve, where people celebrate the new year by getting drunk, driving and getting involved in an accident.

There is nothing Christian oriented about the 25th of December.

Listen to the historians, astronomers and read the Chinese records, at the time associated with the birth of christ the only celestial event that could have been the star of Bethlehem occurred over a period from late spring to mid summer. Which is when shepherds would have been in the fields at night tending sheep.

I started this thread to show how stupid it is to argue over a holiday that has really no basis in the reality of history.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/14/2013 2:01:49 PM

MariaB

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So Jif, are you trying to tell me that when I played Mary in the school nativity, it was all a hoax ?

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/14/2013 2:52:14 PM

jlf1961

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

So Jif, are you trying to tell me that when I played Mary in the school nativity, it was all a hoax ?

No I am saying it was not in December. I am also saying that every tradition that moves away from the celebration of the birth of Jesus was no more than a way for the Catholic Church to make it easier to convert people to the Christian church.

Christmas as it is celebrated today has as much to do with the birth of Jesus Christ as taking a dump in a porta potty and pouring holy water in after it. It is a holiday of excess, commercialized and politicized.

Hell I had to go to Lowe's on black Friday to get the stuff to fix a busted pipe. I was bumped, damn near knocked down, shoved, and cursed at for not moving fast enough. And I was in the fucking plumbing department. There were black Friday specials all over the damn store. On tools, designer fixtures, riding lawn mowers, chain saws, yard care items, you name they had a damn special tag on it. If I had not actually had to go to town that day, I wouldnt have.

I ended up with a few bruises, high blood pressure, the overwhelming desire for a minigun and a million rounds of ammo, or as Jason used, a machete.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/14/2013 2:52:52 PM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

So Jif, are you trying to tell me that when I played Mary in the school nativity, it was all a hoax ?

Yep.
The whole story of Mary and the impossible conception is nothing more than an elaborate hoax

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/14/2013 3:02:18 PM

graceadieu

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Do you really think nobody understands what 'especially' means in the context of a dictionary? That nobody is capable of looking up the word 'heathen' and seeing that it has the same intent as the etymological dictionary's description of 'pagan'?

'Pagan' can be used in many ways, one of those ways is to refer to certain groups that were pantheistic. It is the fallacy of the excluded middle to claim that all pantheistic groups (say for example, Hindus) must be referred to as pagans.

Do you have some valid point?

My point is that the Celtic/Druidic tradition does not have a monopoly on paganism. That other pantheistic groups may also be referred to as pagans. From what you wrote here, it sounds like you agree with that, so I don't understand the hostility here.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/14/2013 5:44:13 PM

AmandaPeace

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There just isn't a war on Christmas. At all.

But Christians tend to feel pretty threatened when other religions and traditions are allowed to be practiced in public space and indeed, feel threatened when their religion isn't constantly validated by their government to the exclusion of all others.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/14/2013 6:34:21 PM

jlf1961

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AmandaPeace

There just isn't a war on Christmas. At all.

But Christians tend to feel pretty threatened when other religions and traditions are allowed to be practiced in public space and indeed, feel threatened when their religion isn't constantly validated by their government to the exclusion of all others.

Look, I am a Catholic living in a predominately Baptist, Southern Baptist, Church of Christ area. As such I hear that I am going to hell for being Catholic and not a true christian, I am a unrepentant sinner because I go to a couple of local nightspots with some friends to listen to music and dance (If I am away from the house I will not drink alcohol) and that I visit the local liquor stores to purchase various alcoholic beverages that are stronger than wine.

Oh and I am going to hell cause I aint been born again.

Mind telling me where the validation is for Catholicism?

Now there was a fuss raised when the local Jewish community built a new synagogue, to replace the structure built in 1890. You probably know the argument, Jews had Jesus killed etc.

Funny thing is that while I have never actually seen these anti drinking holier than though folks in a liquor store, I understand the package store on base sells more booze than can be accounted for with the military population. Now, unless the GI's are buying booze for drinking neighbors off base AND operating a bar in their garage (no basements in this part of Texas, go more than a couple of feet down, you hit this wonderful substance known as caliche. Makes putting in a basement rather expensive.

Back in during the summer, the married preacher of one of the local churches, was arrested for drunk driving pulling out of the parking lot of one of the local strip joints, he was also in the company of a woman of a questionable reputation. He was also charged with resisting arrest.

So the charges were felony DUI, solicitation (misdemeanor) and felony resisting arrest. At the time of his arrest, he tried to claim he was spreading the gospel to the sinners in the strip club.

Did I mention that the club in question is members only? In the small town it is located in, that is the only way they can serve alcohol.

While I am not trying to claim that this man is a fair representation of Baptists in the US, I can say that when the vote was taken for the city and eventually the county going wet, the Baptists were leading the crusade to prevent it. A local news crew spent a few weekends at the restaurants in a small town in the county that was wet. Many of the bible thumping crusaders against the legal sale of spirits, beer and wine in town were frequently seen in those establishments indulging in beer, wine and spirits.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/14/2013 6:51:42 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
While I am not trying to claim that this man is a fair representation of Baptists in the US, I can say that when the vote was taken for the city and eventually the county going wet, the Baptists were leading the crusade to prevent it. A local news crew spent a few weekends at the restaurants in a small town in the county that was wet. Many of the bible thumping crusaders against the legal sale of spirits, beer and wine in town were frequently seen in those establishments indulging in beer, wine and spirits.

DeKalb Alabama where many of my relatives live is a dry county. Kept that way by a vigorous campaign by several prominent Baptist ministers. Strangely a partnership that owns a chain of package stores just across the county line into wet counties on major roads shares a mailing address with the home of the leader of these ministers. I'm sure it is just a coincidence though. ;)

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/15/2013 11:35:01 AM

graceadieu

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AmandaPeace

There just isn't a war on Christmas. At all.

But Christians tend to feel pretty threatened when other religions and traditions are allowed to be practiced in public space and indeed, feel threatened when their religion isn't constantly validated by their government to the exclusion of all others.

It's not all Christians - plenty are tolerant and accepting of others with different beliefs. But evangelical/fundamentalist Christians? You bet.

It's basically because they're insecure and afraid they can't live up to their own strict moral code. And that if they don't, they'll be tortured by god forever. So they need their faith to be constantly reaffirmed and validated by everyone around them, in order to make it easier for them to follow their path.

A secular society is very threatening to them, because it reminds them that there are other ways they could live and other beliefs they could have, and forces them on some level to question themselves. They feel that anyone that's trying to create a tolerant society welcoming to people of all beliefs is really trying to tempt them away from their path and must be evil. That's part of where some of this loony far-right rhetoric comes from, BTW.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/17/2013 8:00:37 AM

Lucylastic

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/18/2013 5:18:05 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I thought that was what communion was for. Ya know, that whole ritualistic eating of Jesus. "This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/18/2013 5:19:33 PM

Lucylastic

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Lots of people never take communion:)

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/18/2013 8:15:53 PM

Aylee

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So does this mean that Santa wants more people to take communion? We are not Christian, but I suppose we can do that. . . the young boy loves peanut butter cracker sandwiches. . . I can just substitute Eucharist for the crackers. Ya know that Eucharist is not too bad with peanut butter on it, I learned that in the Army.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/19/2013 8:17:37 AM

vincentML

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FR

This just in Fox news has already lost the war on Christmas due to changing age demographics.

A recent Pew poll bears out this point. In the survey, 51 percent of respondents say Christmas is "more of a religious holiday," while 32 percent say it is more so a cultural one. But among adults ages 18–29, only a 39 percent minority say they celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday; among those 65 and up, 66 percent say the same.

Get over it!!

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/19/2013 8:50:25 AM

Lucylastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

So does this mean that Santa wants more people to take communion? We are not Christian, but I suppose we can do that. . . the young boy loves peanut butter cracker sandwiches. . . I can just substitute Eucharist for the crackers. Ya know that Eucharist is not too bad with peanut butter on it, I learned that in the Army.

Father Christmas is quiet on the subject.... I hope your kids are doing well.... and have a merry christmas btw:) and you too

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/19/2013 10:05:39 AM

Greta75

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Fast reply

I am struggling to understand what's up with this PC crap?
In Singapore, if it's Christmas, we put up Merry Christmas everywhere. If it's Hari Raya, which is a Muslim thingy, we put up, Happy Hari Raya everywhere. If it's Deepavali, which is a Hindu thing, we put up, "Happy Deepavali" everywhere. We celebrate every race and religion special occasions.

I just find it so anti-freedom to prevent Christians from celebrating Christmas and just sharing their decoration and celebration with the country they live in.

And I'm an atheist so I don't even celebrate anything, but I like all the festivities. To me, like Christmas is like a Spaghetti Monster Day or something. I don't care if they celebrate with putting Spaghetti Monsters statues everywhere, like how Christmas will have baby Jesus in the Manger decoration everywhere or Deepavali, have their elephant Gods placed everywhere. As long as the decors look cool, and Deepavali decors are usually cooler than Christmas Decor in my country, just because Hindu Gods look cooler.

And even in public and private schools, they will put out the decor to suit that every special religious day, because we celebrate everything.

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/19/2013 10:08:34 AM

Apocalypso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
I just find it so anti-freedom to prevent Christians from celebrating Christmas and just sharing their decoration and celebration with the country they live in.

Who's preventing Christians from celebrating Christmas? Are there Christmas police going round smashing up nativity scenes?

(I apologise in advance if you're posting from North Korea).

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RE: The war on christmas - 12/19/2013 10:10:06 AM

Greta75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
Who's preventing Christians from celebrating Christmas? Are there Christmas police going round smashing up nativity scenes?

Well, when Merry Christmas is forbidden to be used in Decors, and they have to put up "Happy Holidays" decors instead, that is pretty NAZI runned!
I heard from my US and UK friends based here that some places in their countries, even some shopping malls aren't allowed to put up Christmas decorations anymore, as it's a Christian thing and not universal for all. That's PC gone mad!

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