EnglishDomNW
Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: herfacechair
EnglishDomNW: Exactly
There is no “exactly” to it. What you stated:
“If you steal someone's land, and they object to it, did they start the conflict or did you?” -EnglishDonNW:
To which I responded:
“And what part of the statement, “Keep in mind that both Jews and Arabs lived in Palestine and considered themselves Palestinians,” is hard to grasp?” herfacechair
The point being that the Israelis DID NOT steal what also belonged to them. This is a counterpoint to your insinuation that the Israelis “stole” what “did not” belong to them in the first place.
As I also stated, they had the opportunity to have a larger area, but blew it.
Exactly. In your own words, "they considered themselves Palestinians"
Are you on a mission to defeat your own arguments throughout this entire thread?
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EnglishDomNW: You seem to be arguing against your own point here
No I am not. What you quoted rebuts YOUR point, and supports MY point. Israel did not steal land as you insinuated with your response.
No, YOU'RE wrong (as Lil pointed out, "again") and I'm RIGHT.
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EnglishDomNW: I'm sure if a family dies from a hail of rockets in the North of Israel, you will (correctly) denounce that act, the same as any right-thinking individual would. It's a savage act.
I don’t know if I would write 400 pages denouncing it, or complain on the streets, but I would see it as an act of savagery, especially given that Hezbollah’s modus operandi with their attacks is to strike terror. They are deliberately attacking civilians as part of their tactics.
Isn't that awful? Everyone condemns that tactic, don't they. Let's see how far you can keep this argument up
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EnglishDomNW: Yet your instant reaction is to defend Israel launching a rocket attack on a clearly marked ambulance ferrying injured civilians to the hospital and describe that as "legitimate military action".
The Israeli combat pilots and the Israeli SPEC OPS troops that painted the ambulance WERE at the scene. You were NOT at the scene. Hence I will trust the judgements of the combat pilots responsible and the SPEC OPS troops who painted the ambulance as a target over anybody’s insinuation that the ambulance “was just carrying injured civilians”.
You are never at the scene when a rocket falls in Northern Israel but you know it happens. How? You watch the news.
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This is not a similar act as the terror attacks perpetrated by Hezbollah, who do go out of their way to attack the civilian populations.
How do you know, are you at the scene when they do it? Or do you watch the news? 
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Your deliberately ignoring - or refusing to acknowledge the fact that Israel’s enemies will use hospitals, mosques, ambulances, and other protected landmarks for military purposes, does not change the fact that these people will abuse protected equipment and buildings for their own purposes.
Not much point for the Geneva Convention really, since you're giving Israel full reign to attack anything it likes (including UN buildings - clearly marked) because anything on the planet "might" be harbouring hidden missiles, mightn't it?
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One of the tactics that Hezbollah is using is to draw fire into civilian areas.
How do you know, did you ask them in your official Mustang role? It must be either that or "you get your information from news sources" which you've already criticised yourself as holding back information. Which is it, herfacechair?
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The Israelis warned them not to do this, and that if they do engage in this, they will still fire.
How do you know, did you ask them in your official Mustang role? It must be either that or "you get your information from news sources" which you've already criticised yourself as holding back information. Which is it, herfacechair?
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Now, if the Israelis initiate an investigation over the ambulance bombing, and the investigation finds that the Israelis were in fact in the wrong, THEN I will come out and do the following three things: (1) Lambast the Israelis that are at fault, (2) Praise the Israeli Government for holding them accountable, and (3) Lambast Hezbollah for doing - as normal SOP - what the Israelis don’t approve of.
Well, good for you. Have an apple
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EnglishDomNW: Trust me on this
Trust your opinions? You have not given me enough justification to do so.
Haven't you noticed how I'm always right? How much justification do you need?
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EnglishDomNW: - somewhere in the world right now, someone is declaring Hezbollah's deeds as "legitimate military action".
Terrorists see that as a “legitimate military action”.
How do you know, did you ask them in your official Mustang role? It must be either that or "you get your information from news sources" which you've already criticised yourself as holding back information. Which is it, herfacechair?
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So do their enablers. But that does not make it a “legitimate military action”. This is like members of the Man Boy Association claiming that sexual relationships between men and boys are “legitimate”.
Jesus, where the HELL did you go now??
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Just because another terrorist sees Hezbollah’s deeds as “legitimate military action” does not make it a legitimate military action.
Exactly. And just because someone on the internet, a "Mustang Officer" (lol) says it's "legitimate military action" doesn't make it so either. Or anyone from the "Man Boy Association. (lol x 2)
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EnglishDomNW: And in the middle of your ludicrously biased opinion and theirs are the civilians on both sides.
“Ludicrously biased” opinion? ROTFLMFAO!
ARE YOU SERIOUSLY SUGGESTING YOUR OPINIONS ARE UNBIASED? ROOOOOOOOOOFLMFAO!!!!!!!
Come ON, not even you can possibly believe that!!
My “opinion” is an assessment based on my military experience, as well as on extensive research and reading done on these types of people done over the past five years.
Oh yes, I forgot. You're a "Mustang Officer" on his way to a secret location. Damn, I keep forgetting that, sorry. Sir.
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You are trying to put on equal footing two things that are not even close to each other. Here, let me demonstrate. That would be like trying to justify sexual relationships between a man and a boy
What is your obsession with this Man/Boy love thing and what could it possibly have to do with Israel or the Dixie Chicks? YOU ARE SCARING ME!
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because two consenting adults are allowed to have sexual relationships. Then turning around and trying to put that into perspective by “seeing” things from the eyes of a man that believes that men and boys should have a sexual relationship. (As in accusing the general public of having a “ludicrously” biased opinion because they rightfully condemn such arrangements.)
I think you're seriously close to the edge.
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But the reality is that any attempt to compare the two would miss the point about what is really going on. The Israelis are going out of their way to target Hezbollah and their hideouts.
Thank the sweet Lord you got off THAT subject
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They have an excellent INTEL program that they are using to target, attack, destroy, neutralize, etc their enemy. They have warned Hezbollah that they will fire at them even if they position themselves and their equipment among the civilian population.
That made it incumbent on Hezbollah to NOT use neutral equipment for their purposes, to NOT hide out in neutral landmarks, etc.
Hezbollah can go a long way to reducing Lebanese civilian deaths by redeploying their forces away from urban areas and by stopping their use of vehicles and equipment that would normally not be targeted.
The civilians of Lebanon can't win can they? If they're in a terrorist stronghold, bang. If they're in a civilian house, under your rules that's a legitimate target because Hezbollah use civilian dwellings to hide their forces.
So, in your "unbiased" (lol) world, Israel can flatten the entire country because there "might" be terrorists hiding out there.
How unbiased.
I suppose they also flattened the clearly marked UN building just in case, right?
I mean, why take chances?
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Unlike Hezbollah, the Israelis WILL investigate incidents where there appears to be a deliberate move by one of their troops to take on civilian targets when they were not being used for military purposes.
How do you know Hezbollah don't, have you infiltrated them as well as the entire planets news services, the Israeli Defence Force and the Man Boy Love association? You Mustang Officers certainly keep yourselves busy .
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EnglishDomNW: you are so determined to prove that one side is wholly good and the other is wholly evil
First, this is not about proving one side good and the other side wholly evil. The Israelis are in the right on this one.
And now, back to our unbiased news reporter on the scene, in his rubber militarywear, Sergeant Herfacechair
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Hezbollah has been harassing Israel MONTHS prior to this current fiasco. They have been attempting to kidnap Israeli soldiers at least since the beginning of this year. The Israelis have finally put their foot down.
Second, Hezbollah is specifically going out of its way to target civilian populations, while the Israelis are going out of their way to target enemy combatants. If civilians get killed in the process of an Israeli attacks, it was because Hezbollah knowingly positioned themselves among the civilian population. The purpose? Just as with Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and the insurgents in Iraq, they know that by hiding among the civilian population, they increase the chances of causing civilian casualties - and drawing world opinion in their favor.
Presumably you at least lay the blame for the killing of the UN operatives solely at the hands of the Israelis and not because Hezbollah might be hiding in there. Surely, your "unbiased" news reporting allows you to do that, right?
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EnglishDomNW: that you render your own opinions as meaningless.
No, my “opinions” are not rendered meaningless. But my assessments do punch holes in the opinions expressed by the post that I am addressing.
LOL - yes, that Man/Boy line punched the hell out of everyone else's opinions.
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EnglishDomNW: But it wasn't. It was carrying civilians that had already been wounded to the hospital. And anyone but an extreme zealot would be condemning it.
You DON’T know that for a “fact”. The news may have claimed that this was the case, but the news, especially the likes of BBC and CNN, tend to hold allot of information out. Unlike either you or the journalists, the combat pilots and the SPEC OPS forces on the ground who were painting the ambulance saw something that the media either did not catch or refuses to inform the public.
So let me get this straight. If the news "holds a lot of information out", where are you getting your information from? Are you in direct link with the IDF and Hezbollah? Or do you have military friends at the scene sending you the information.
I'm curious to know.
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EnglishDomNW: I think the reason I question your status is possibly because of your posts, not despite them.
You do realize that the majority of the military/military vets/government employees share either the same or similar views to the one that I expressed here, do you?
When did you interview them? Give me dates, times, and response figures.
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Heck, my views are “lenient” compared to that of other service members and vets that I have talked to.
EnglishDomNW: The Geneva Convention, articles 19 to 22 states that no medical service vehicle may be attacked UNLESS the vehicle is being used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy
Which is precisely what I described in laymen’s terms:
“Geneva Convention protection STOPS as soon something that is supposed to be serving 100% in a non combatant capacity ceases to be used only for non combatant purposes but also for combat support/combat ops purposes.” -herfacechair
Acts harmful to the enemy includes combat support and combat operations. If the ambulance is delivering a missile, that missile will eventually be used by the enemy. If you don’t believe that combat support - such as logistics - can prove harmful, then you need to talk to people on both sides about why they don’t have to worry about attacking supply lines.
EnglishDomNW: (it wasn't but regardless, the article continues)
And you “know” because you were “there”, right? Or is it because that’s what you heard on the news?
I "know" this because I believe the news over a fake military figure on an internet message board. What about you?
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Again, I will trust the judgements of the combat pilots and the SPEC OPS forces that were on the scene.
I didn't realise they'd personally called you with an explanation.
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I know that you are not saying that you were not there, but unless you were right there watching the whole thing unfold, unless you have seen what happened around the ambulance before and during the attack, you are not qualified to sit there and say that “it ‘wasn’t but regardless’”.
I'm as qualified as you are for saying the reverse.
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EnglishDomNW: Protection may, however, cease only after a due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded (none of which apparently took place).
WRONG.
LOL how can it be wrong for heaven's sake, it's PASTED DIRECTLY FROM THE TEXT OF THE GENEVA CONVENTION, or did you get the Man/Boy love association to rewrite it while i was making soup?
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The Israelis HAVE warned Hezbollah to NOT hide among the civilians, this includes both weapons and personnel. They have also warned Hezbollah that they will be fired upon if they try to use civilians, civilian use equipment and structures.
Now, unless the Israelis launch and investigation, and comes up with a finding that supports what the news said, I am not going to jump on the bandwagon and start accusing the Israelis of atrocities for shooting the ambulance.
Of course you're not, you're our "unbiased reporter", remember? LOL
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I am also willing to entertain the possibility that the ambulance got caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. This is war, crap happens. But until a thorough investigation proves otherwise, I am going to trust the judgement of the combat troops over that of a journalist.
That's a shock.
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EnglishDomNW: What's even worse is that on tonight's news, Israel killed four UN peacekeepers one from Canada, one from China, one from Finland and one from Austria. (Let me guess, "they could have been hiding missiles", right?) in an apparently deliberate attack. And on top of that, the rescue team that was sent in were also attacked as they cleared the rubble.
Then you need to contact the Israelis investigating that incident and save them some time by giving them your conclusions.
I don't need to. They've already started their own investigation. But I will point out to you that "on the news" which you distrust so much, the UN peacekeepers made as many as ten telephone calls to Israeli's and asked them to stop bombing near the UN building (clearly marked). Despite reassuring them that would happen, the Israeli's kept firing until a direct hit killed the people inside.
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Again, I am going to go by the judgement of the Israeli forces that were in the region rather than what the news withholds. This case involves that building being caught in a cross fire between the IDF and Hezbollah. When you are being shot at, you don’t have time to say, “crap, that is the UN building, we can’t shoot”, especially when all you see is OPFOR firing at you from or near a BUILDING.
Ummmm. The UN Building was shooting at nobody for goodness sake. When you see a building with a huge U.N.printed on its roof, you should at least take a wild guess what those letters stand for.
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Given that we are talking about Hezbollah, it would not surprise me in the least bit if they went near the U.N. building to draw Israeli fire. That was their tactic in other areas in Lebanon.
Of course it wouldn't. Because you're "unbiased", remember?
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EnglishDomNW: I don't think there's a person on this board that wouldn't condemn this act, possibly excluding you, who will invent some military reason why Israel had to do it.
I don’t need to “invent” a military reason to describe a military reality…
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/25/mideast.main/index.html
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Daniel Ayalon, Israel's ambassador to the United States, said that "UNIFIL obviously got caught in the middle" of a gunfight between Hezbollah guerillas and Israeli troops.
"We do not have yet confirmation what caused these deaths. It could be (Israel Defense Forces). It could be Hezbollah," he said.
The Israelis are investigating this. Even IF this was proved to be an error on the Israelis part, this STILL sets them apart from Hezbollah, who are killing civilians as a policy.
The UN post was hit by a precision guided missile, following as many as 10 calls from the representatives inside to Israeli forces asking them to stop. Despite reassurances that it would, a missile flattened the top floor of the building which collapsed onto the people inside.
Stick to Man/Boy Love analogies. I don't know what "Man/Boy Love" is, AND I DONT WANT TO. At least when you talk about that, you ARE unbiased
< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 7/26/2006 2:40:34 PM >
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(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
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