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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/16/2014 6:45:53 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


So, without further ado, and without making a mess on other threads where this discussion is out of place, I would like to hear your thoughts on how all of the cultures can coincide?
[/color]


I don't think they can and any attempt is like beating a dead horse!

Talking of horses, its exactly the same in the equine world. If your an endurance rider you just don't take horse mastership seriously. If your a dressage rider your a ponce, a polo players merely a rich bitch and if your a happy hacker, well god forbid!! Its the same in rock climbing, in dog training and so on. Any place you find variables you find a divide. The thing is, if you are an polo player you stick with other polo players and very seldom interact with people of different disciplines. For the most part its the same in the fet world. We see them but tend to walk on by.

I personally don't see a big problem with fetishes that are unusual or different. We do get the odd prick who sarcastically berates those not into the same as them but its not a daily event. Are the Gorean forums full of vindictive trolls trying to upset the boards? do Goreans come into other forums to mock us and tell us we all have it wrong? Sure but not very often.

The divide is much more subtle. The divide from where I'm sitting is all to do with egos and competition. The dominants against the dominants, subs against subs and subs and dominants fighting amok!! There's a huge lack of self confidence on boards like this and people who feel they are in a less than superior position often berate others in an attempt to bolster their own self worth.

If your popular here you get your ego stroked. Its the same in the real world. If your not popular or if a popular member has had a go at you, then watch out, your for the dog house and its going to take some time and a lot of effort to get back on track.

Unlike other sites we know, this is a fairly small pond. If you have been around as long as I have then you know who most of the regulars are. You even know their alter-ego ego profiles, their troll profiles or when they leave and come back as someone else and claim they are new! You learn who not to converse with, who not to have a debate with and who not to disagree with because experience tells us what happens if we do!!

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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/16/2014 6:47:02 AM   
MariaB


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oops double posted!


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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/16/2014 11:52:39 AM   
ExiledTyrant


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LP, you know me pretty well, and know that I get along very well with FemDom's. We can be great friends and there is no hidden agenda, just great friends with similar interests. I highly respect anyone's right to be on either side of the kneel, as long as they stand/kneel responsibly, intelligently, and consensually.

Chest thumpers usually land their victims because the victim doesn't know the difference between dominant and dick head. However, once they discover the difference, their out of the lifestyle or, fate favoring the foolish, they've found a right and proper D. So when I see chest thumping, it gives me a chuckle to think how miserable that person must be behind their keyboard, and if they have a victim in their clutches, how much angst they must be suffering waiting to be discovered as the frauds they are.

Respect is a powerful tool, and reflects the character of the person giving it or offering disrespect. A prolifically disrespectful person, will disrespect those closest to them first and often.

As far as respecting others choices, it was hard for me to overcome all the "rural country minded" belligerent bigotry that I was raised with. Once I realized I was the only person responsible for my happy, and how precious that happy was to me, I broke free of the ignorance and stupidity I was raised with. It took me accepting one thing for what it was, for me to be able to accept anything.

It is, after all, my happiness and I keep, participate, and nurture the things that make me happy, and politely (as I can) keep all else at arms length. I am so hedro I'm a lesbo, I've never had an attraction nor homosexual thought of another man, but that does not give me the right or compulsion to disrespect homo/bi-sexuals. That's their happy, and I'm happy they're happy. Point of fact, I loved the movie Brokeback Mountain, I'm a sucker for love stories and that was a feckin awesome love story. A tragedy, but a good story.

YMMV

Exiled

Reposted because I got puce fan mail! I love color settings ;)


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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/16/2014 1:12:37 PM   
SoulAlloy


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To be honest I try and subscribe to the Beatles song in this Let It Be

On the scene there are sometimes clashes, but I find the biggest ones happen when people choose to judge eachothers kinks and lifestyles, and attempt to impose them. When I started out on the scene swingers and BDSMers were rivals and largely thought eachother disgusting, poly was frowned on, the gay and lesbian scenes were completely separate from the hetero scenes.

Fast forward six (seven in May) years and a large proportion of the people I meet now are bisexual or bicurious, experienced at swinging, openly polyamorous. The gay male scene is still largely separate, more lesbians are mixing in, even furries are on the increase in the BDSM scene. So far this year (yes in the meagre 16 days of it) I've seen a growing number into watersports and scat at munches and events.

So what changed? In some ways I suppose it's because the BDSM scene started to make more noise, particularly with the scare over the change in legislation over extreme porn, and (dare I mention it) 50 shades of grey and the whirlwind that arose from it. Other factors are obviously the growing acceptance of LBG rights, and to an extent the increasing sexualisation of media (films/tv especially) making alternative sexualities more acceptable. More and more people started to realise that 'hell, these people are just like us'.

So where does this leave the integration of Goreans. I know a couple in real life and they don't push their ideologies, just as I don't push mine onto them. I'm curious and ask about it sometimes, but at the end of the day they're not harming anyone. Contrarily you get online idiots who do more harm than good, and this is true for all kinks. One bad egg does not mean all eggs are bad

So I guess along with the Beatles, the other key element (as you mentioned) is from Aretha Franklin - Respect

In time kink will be more and more commonplace :)

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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/16/2014 1:17:12 PM   
orgasmdenial12


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I don't respect nor disrespect Gor. It's not my thing and TBH I don't think it really fits within the BDSM world. Same with furries.


Well, it's IN the BDSM world, so to say it doesn't 'fit' seems a lot like saying it 'shouldn't' be in the BDSM world. And that's kind of disrespectful and not very welcoming.

As regards furries - Fur has been associated with s&m since Leopold von Sacher Masoch (venus in furs - it's kind of in the name...) If furries don't belong here, then who does?


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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/16/2014 2:48:58 PM   
NiceButMeanGirl


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At the same time I try to be nice to everyone, unless they give me a really good reason to not be, there are some things I just don't understand and I will never pretend to understand or like, either one. Goreanism and it's male superiority for instance...then there is female superiority/worthless male worm......diaper-wearing adults....scat....etc etc. But, YKINMK and that's okay. I just don't want anyone forcing their kink onto me just as I won't force mine onto them. I also get tired of guys "slamming their dicks on the table because females answer." Anyone is allowed to answer anywhere they want to and it's okay according to forum guidelines. Also, although an OP can ask for a certain segment to answer his/her question, again, anyone is allowed to answer anywhere. Sometimes I think people take themselves too seriously, we're all just pixels on a screen, for crying out loud.

NBMG

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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/16/2014 2:58:30 PM   
sunshinemiss


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Sunny
Quote of the Day
goes to
DarkSteven
for
while I try to be open minded about practices,
I am NOT open minded about character.




http://www.collarchat.com/m_4620078/mpage_1/tm.htm

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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/16/2014 5:33:39 PM   
littlewonder


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I admit I don't find all fetishes ok and I'm not about to sit here and say that I respect their kink when I don't. Yeah, I tolerate them, but respect them? Nope. There are just some things I can never respect. Besides for me, respect is not something I give easily. I can count on one hand, those who have that from me. Everyone else gets common courtesy.


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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/16/2014 5:39:49 PM   
StrictlyADomina


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Culture is the characteristics of a particular group of people, so it might seem that some of the bravado and posturing of the "twue" D/s'ers might be hard to breech. Being polite and respectful generally goes a long way to building bridges between people. Of course we all know that occasionally you are just going to run up against an asshat, whether he/she is found in church, work or gym. These people I generally ignore, sometimes actively shun or if I'm in the right mood and what they said just hits me the right way, verbally take them apart.

Mostly I've found reason only works with reasonable people and arguing with an idiot just makes you look bad.

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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/17/2014 1:43:59 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NiceButMeanGirl
Sometimes I think people take themselves too seriously.


^This. People certainly do take themselves far too seriously and those 'too serious' people will argue its because they are life-stylers and not weekenders

quote:


we're all just pixels on a screen, for crying out loud.


Whilst we may be pixels on a screen, in reality we are all living breathing, hopefully emotional human beings behind that screen. When I see people getting upset, angry or offended over what someone's said on-line, I just see it as a perfectly normal human reaction.




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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/18/2014 8:27:00 AM   
Domnotlooking


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Are there actually enough Goreans walking around in real life to even fill up a school bus? 8 big lifestyle events have yielded up only a single (would be) Gorean for me to question.

Do I actually need a tolerance policy for sub-populations that number less than one eyed Albanians, or can I just wing it?

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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/18/2014 9:36:05 AM   
DomDolf


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Competition is fundamental to human nature and at the root of it all I believe that's what intolerance is - competition. Only if we are constantly policing ourselves would we stand a chance of creating a sustainable bridge of tolerance. It is simply against our nature, but many things we've accomplished in history were against some part of our nature and despite this, on the whole, we've done pretty well as a species in creating bridges there.

Of course, I have been known to lose my cool with those I believe to preach 'The One True Way' and an occasional annoying person has triggered an outright head smashing, take no prisoners, damn the torpedoes attitude too - 2008 was the last time I clearly remember, but I'm sure it's happened a time or two since. An engaged ego.... The good, the bad and the ugly of it - lol. So, I recognize that I have been guilty of defacing the bridge. That being said, I think the odds are slim, but that itty bitty part of me that indulges the more idealistic folks among us is always willing to do my best to help build and maintain any bridge of tolerance and consider my own intolerances unacceptable and below my standards. Not that this thread was a call to action, but I have a commitment to constantly raise my personal standards, which this thread has triggered. Thank you, LadyPact.

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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/18/2014 9:59:16 AM   
njlauren


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The answer is the same with any other type of thing, you end up with tribalism, with 'my tribe is superior to yours'. Someone said this is different that religion, but it isn't, religion comes in many forms, and yes, it is chosen (there is nothing in your DNA that says "I am Catholic" or "I am a Jew", it is often learned behavior from growing up in a family with the faith or around other people, or later on it catches your eye and you say "yeah, that really makes sense to me). In religion, even within the same faith, you see the same kind of parallels you do in BD/SM.....you have the fundamentalists, who have decided that the bible is a literal document, and they base everything on rigid reading of it, which could be a parallel to the Gorean view of things, where they literally act out the stuff that was in the book; you have the various leather protocol/families, who would be roughly equivalent to the Orthodox Catholic idea of things;then, the more progressive forms of Christianity, from Cafeteria Catholics to progressive Christians like the UCC, who see things as "I reserve the right to find my own beliefs".....and yeah, there is the equivalent of 'weird' BD/SM stuff, like adult babies, in religion, think of how people view scientology, Christian Scientists or Mormons, as some examples (or Pagans....)..........

The conflict happens when people's sense of self is not in themselves, but in the group they belong to. A Gorean who feels "this really works for me" will understand that someone who does this in the bedroom or a weekend is expressing themselves as well, whereas a Gorean who feels sense of pride of being Gorean as being the one true way to be a slave and take pride in being on the right path, will look down on others, as fundamentalist/evangelical Christians or Orthodox Catholics often look down on others. The 'old guard' leather types can get sense of self from the idea they are 'authentic' since their protocols and such were 'handed down', 'taught properly' and so forth, but rather than take pride in that this works for them, that there is this structure and history, they turn it into inside "I am really great, because I am on the true path", and then look down on others....if the pride is in finding something that works for you and you recognize it, you aren't as likely to take the attitude like everyone else is a fake. And as others have said, I don't have problems with Goreans or TPE'ers or Old Guard leather protocols or dyke separatist leather types, if that is what floats their boat I think it is great, I only have problems when they want to force everyone else to do as they do, or want to spread, not that they are really happy with what they so and try to share it, but like the douchebags who come to your door at 7am telling you you are going to hell if you dont believe as they do, they get the same response, a kick in the ass.

The BD/SM community has changed a lot in my time in it, that stretches back now almost 30 years, with the last 15 or so within the lifestyle aspects, and interestingly, what I see is it becoming more like a lot of people's views of faith. If polls are right, the faster growing group of people within faith are people who kind of mix and match things, more and more people (maybe even a majority) who claim belief take from a wide variety of beliefs, they no longer believe what Padre Polenta (bonus points to anyone who knows where I got that name from) tells them is the only truth. In BD/SM, groups and events have become lot more mixed , I don't see the old seperatism that once existed, pan events and groups seem much much common, and there isn't the divide their once was between gay and straight and dyke, and with lifestyle BD/SM people I have seen and know, most of them love to share knowledge with others, they love the lifestyle, but they also don't preach the 'true faith', either, and most of them hate that type as much as I do.

The other thing to keep in mind is that internet forums also are not exactly great indicators of anything in real life, these kind of places, because it is cyber, allows people to vent as they wish, and also kind of allows people to have an alter ego that doesn't represent themselves IRL....and I think more than a few simply love to fight....

One word people come up with on here a lot is tolerate, and that is part of the problem. Tolerance in many ways, to quote Tom Paine, is as bad as intolerance, because both start with the fundamental idea that the person has the right to judge, the only difference is with the tolerant person, they decide not to do anything about it. You don't necessarily have to respect scat as a practice, for example, but you can respect the right of others to do it if it floats their boat.......and yeah, I am not saying I am exactly a harbinger of not 'tolerating' things, I try to limit judging based on when people try to force others or harm others, but it is also human to look at things you aren't into and 'judge' them:)

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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/18/2014 10:01:28 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domnotlooking

Are there actually enough Goreans walking around in real life to even fill up a school bus? 8 big lifestyle events have yielded up only a single (would be) Gorean for me to question.

Do I actually need a tolerance policy for sub-populations that number less than one eyed Albanians, or can I just wing it?

I don't think the OP was talking just about Goreans, they were an example of the cross group bickering, not the purpose of it. Goreans are few and far between IRL based on what I saw, a lot of it seems more to be about people claiming to be into it arguing about protocol online rather than living it, seems more like a cyber community than one based IRL for most people, but then again, same thing with BD/SM as a whole.

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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/18/2014 12:48:16 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
I don't see the old seperatism that once existed, pan events and groups seem much much common, and there isn't the divide their once was between gay and straight and dyke, and with lifestyle BD/SM people I have seen and know, most of them love to share knowledge with others, they love the lifestyle, but they also don't preach the 'true faith', either, and most of them hate that type as much as I do.


njiauren, your entire post was really good but I only quoted this bit because its the bit I wanted to reply to.

I'm glad your experience is more positive than mine but then we both come from different lands.

We go to a lot of fetish events. We love them because they always feel like a carnival of bizarre, whacky and wonderful. Its interesting that we see very few of the BDSM crowd at these events. BDSM friends tell us they hate fet clubs because there are so many people into so much weirdness. A regular fetish club we attend has two thousand people coming through the door on a Saturday night, the biggest BDSM club we attend has a couple of hundred at most. I've always wondered why the fetishsts don't come out and support the BDSM clubs and why there seems to be such a wide divide between the two. Truth is, most fetishsts don't get an introduction into what BDSM is and BDSM with its dark clothing and grungy music isn't exciting enough.

BDSM in the UK is breaking itself up into smaller and smaller groups. We have the under 30s parties, the Domme male sub parties, the Dom female sub parties, the over 40s parties, the hard core parties, the fluffy parties and so on. Its so diluted that clubs fight to survive because why pay to go to an event when you can go to a select private party at someone's house? From where I'm sitting, the whole broad social structure of BDSM doesn't exist any more.





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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/18/2014 3:23:09 PM   
StrongSpirit


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I blame the internet.

It used to be that if you were a white Jewish man only interested in dominating a virgin Chinese christian female sub, between 5 and 6 years younger than you, you quickly realized it wasn't going to happen, grew up, and expanded your horizons.

Now you can go online and find a support group with a hundred people with the same kink. It has created a culture of excessive selectivity, along with prejudice against other cultures.

But luckily, this culture lessens quite a bit when you get offline and go to clubs, cons, etc. Personally, I wish it would vanish completely offline and lessen on line, but no such luck.

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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/18/2014 8:19:10 PM   
SoulAlloy


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From: Preston, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

BDSM in the UK is breaking itself up into smaller and smaller groups. We have the under 30s parties, the Domme male sub parties, the Dom female sub parties, the over 40s parties, the hard core parties, the fluffy parties and so on. Its so diluted that clubs fight to survive because why pay to go to an event when you can go to a select private party at someone's house? From where I'm sitting, the whole broad social structure of BDSM doesn't exist any more.



I actually have to disagree entirely, this has not been my experience of the UK scene over the last year at all - certainly in the NW the number of people attending has risen so dramatically that all these extra events are springing up simply because they can, and the more generic events are filling up to capacity so not everyone who wants to go can attend.

Munches have diversified, but the crossover between them is still very high, the same goes for events.

A few years ago there was something similar to what you described, a new venue sprang up, and rather than try to coexist with the existing events around it tried to become the only place for events and clashed with four other venues - due to the lack of common sense in this, it folded. Newer venues have sprung up, and they have recognised the simple fact that if you want to be a success you have to work with the existing structure, not attempt to force your own over it.

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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/18/2014 9:23:21 PM   
DesFIP


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My experience has been the opposite of lauren's. Here, although the group owner talks a good game about being open and accepting, the group is anything but. Anybody unattached, she tries to 'protect'. And although there is never anything saying that an event is high protocol, she and her buddies make anyone who isn't very uncomfortable.

Since I'm just a few hours north of her, obviously it isn't the US vs the UK. Just the individual group and the leader thereof that determines the group culture.

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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/18/2014 10:02:30 PM   
GoddessManko


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I'll be honest, I'm EXTREMELY happy being relatively unknown in the world of kink though I have secretly been a part of it for a decade and a half. I don't want to make friends within the lifestyle or for this to take over my vanilla life.
However I find engaging with people in the forums etc and hearing their experiences to be eye opening.
I definitely do not want to be embraced by any particular peer group, I have never been the type to try to "fit in" to feel comfortable with myself. But the fact that people are still open and welcoming of all different types and cultures is encouraging.
I come from an ultra conservative background and ultra conservative parents so how I ended up to be so far outside the norm in more ways than one can list, who knows.
I do know that I will probably never meet many people who I probably share more in common with than my vanilla friends not only for sake of discretion, but also personal comfort.
Never want it to accidentally slip that I am a Domme. Anyone I have told (maybe three total) has seen me differently, and they were absolutely shocked because suddenly I was FAR less sweet than before..
I like being the nice, sweet and "too nice" girl that my friends perceive me to be, and then with my sub only do I transform into my true self. Most of my friends probably went through s Tsundere process they no longer remember because it has been wiped out with eager hugs and broad smiles.
I think the balance that currently exists...is perfect.
I can't see myself having any desire to squeeze myself into munch or party anytime this decade.
I'm still able to get and retain my subs despite that so... :)

I think overall if any lifestyle is pretty accepting of ALL kinds of people, it's this one...humans and serpents alike :)


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RE: Respecting cultures within kink - 1/18/2014 10:08:30 PM   
GoddessManko


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To respond to Lauren, I have engaged directly with a Gorean, of course he was from Greece, he's pretty known in the community and makes gorgeous collars he gives away to people he takes a liking to. (Yes, I ended that sentence with a preposition). Very eccentric yet profound fellow. I found he had a really beautiful way of looking at the lifestyle, probably the closest aligned with my own in my experience.


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