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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 4:10:13 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
We talked last time about you're not going to change k's position and your justification for not blocking him was something along the lines of informing other people. How does this work toward achieving that goal? From where I'm standing it looks like these multiway flame wars muddy the water as opposed to illuminating anything.

So now I should block MM? I don't see the logic.


Please, please block K already. When he successfully baits you into trolling him back (which reliably happens just about every thread) it derails the thread which is just exactly what K wants.

I'm agreeing with MM that you are trolling at this point and you've also gotten MM trolling back at you, it just turns the thread into a giant shitshow. This whole process doesn't accomplish anything productive besides giving K troll-boner.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 4:37:20 AM   
Moderator7


Posts: 346
Status: offline 		Please be reminded that this section is moderated less so everyone can enjoy their discussions fully. Do think about what you type before typing them and take a pause if needed. Will be stopping by again to check on the this thread among others - enjoy the discussion.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 4:58:59 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

So the point is, we are dealing here with the usual anti-religious bigots whose cranky blame-religion chorus is nothing more or less than a clown act fueled by ignorance and bile.

Interestingly enough most of you who hate "the usual-anti religious bigots whose cranky blame-religion chorus is nothing more or nothing less (sic) than a clown act fueled by ignorance and bile" tend to do exactly that in regards to Islam.

Not to imply a trend or anything, but you can't even report correctly what people say when it's right in front of you.

K.




I think you will find that altering my post is against the rules. I clearly indicated what you had written using (sic) to highlight your error.



(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 5:09:55 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

So the point is, we are dealing here with the usual anti-religious bigots whose cranky blame-religion chorus is nothing more or less than a clown act fueled by ignorance and bile.

Interestingly enough most of you who hate "the usual-anti religious bigots whose cranky blame-religion chorus is nothing more or nothing less (sic) than a clown act fueled by ignorance and bile" tend to do exactly that in regards to Islam.

Not to imply a trend or anything, but you can't even report correctly what people say when it's right in front of you.

I think you will find that altering my post is against the rules. I clearly indicated what you had written using (sic) to highlight your error.

I think you will find that you're making shit up again.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/20/2014 5:14:07 AM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 5:14:29 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

So the point is, we are dealing here with the usual anti-religious bigots whose cranky blame-religion chorus is nothing more or less than a clown act fueled by ignorance and bile.

Interestingly enough most of you who hate "the usual-anti religious bigots whose cranky blame-religion chorus is nothing more or nothing less (sic) than a clown act fueled by ignorance and bile" tend to do exactly that in regards to Islam.

Not to imply a trend or anything, but you can't even report correctly what people say when it's right in front of you.

K.




I think you will find that altering my post is against the rules. I clearly indicated what you had written using (sic) to highlight your error.






this is your original post..


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Lmfao........ I always took you as patronising but never as completely stupid...until now.

You would benefit more from taking a look in the mirror.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Are you really suggesting your link At least in part now equates to you claim Underlying cause

The dynamics of repression and reaction formation have been observed in clinical settings for decades, and the available evidence confirms repressed homosexual arousal as the underlying cause of primary homophobia. It perhaps bears recalling that in the first study cited it was only the homophobes who responded with arousal to the homosexual stimuli.

A secondary form of homophobia can arise when children and youth internalize a fear and loathing of homosexuals communicated to them by significant caretakers and respected leaders. But while these internalized attitudes can be ameliorated through social pressure, as we are seeing today, ego-defenses tend to be refractive to influence.

In the final analysis, it is social pressure that produces both kinds of homophobes. But in the atheistic Soviet Union, the penal code required that "sexual relations between men" be punishable "by prison terms of up to five years,” whereas in the United States today the majority of mainline Protestants and Catholics are accepting of homosexuality.

So the point is, we are dealing here with the usual anti-religious bigots whose cranky blame-religion chorus is nothing more or less than a clown act fueled by ignorance and bile.

K.



No bruv....what we are dealing with here is your ongoing bullshit. Re-read my first post and then look at your post that I quoted.

Interestingly enough most of you who hate "the usual-anti religious bigots whose cranky blame-religion chorus is nothing more or nothing less (sic) than a clown act fueled by ignorance and bile" tend to do exactly that in regards to Islam.



Word for word, nothing altered. Now he didn't quote the whole post but since the mods keep telling us to trim them, that can't be the problem. So why lie and claim he did? It's not like we can't check and see you are lying.

< Message edited by thishereboi -- 6/20/2014 5:15:08 AM >

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 5:39:39 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

In the final analysis, it is social pressure that produces both kinds of homophobes. But in the atheistic Soviet Union, the penal code required that "sexual relations between men" be punishable "by prison terms of up to five years,” whereas in the United States today the majority of mainline Protestants and Catholics are accepting of homosexuality.

So the point is, we are dealing here with the usual anti-religious bigots whose cranky blame-religion chorus is nothing more or less than a clown act fueled by ignorance and bile.
[/font][/size]

If you wish to contest the observation that religion(s) lead the charge against marriage equality and promotes homophobia, I am afraid you will need far more persuasive evidence than the false dichotomy central to this flimsy piece of sophistry.

Can any one nominate one Western country where some significant Christian churches and individuals are not at the forefront of those forces denying equality to queers? I don't know of any. I rather suspect that no such country exists.

IOW through out the West, Christian churches and individuals are at the forefront of homophobic politics. For instance, that paragon of sexual morality and ethics, the Catholic Church is prominent in anti-marriage equality and promoting homophobia universally. Homophobia like all social neuroses feeds off precisely the "ignorance and bile" that you attribute to proponents of marriage and legal equality. "Ignorance and bile" are necessary pre-requisites to an aggressive homophobic stance, such as that of the Catholic Church. So, any "ignorance and bile" is on the homophobic side of the argument that you choose to adovcate.

It's a neat rhetorical trick to accuse your opponents of precisely the negative reactionary flaws inherent in your own position - a neat trick but nonethless, an epic fail.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/20/2014 5:48:10 AM >

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(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 5:47:02 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Huh?

Here there's a clear case of non-religious homophobia, and hence, religion, at the very least, is not the sole perpetrator.

There's nothing false or flimsy about that -- it's historical evidence of exactly this point.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 5:50:20 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Huh?

Here there's a clear case of non-religious homophobia, and hence, religion, at the very least, is not the sole perpetrator.

There's nothing false or flimsy about that -- it's historical evidence of exactly this point.

I didn't suggest religion had a monopoly on homophobia. My exact words were: "Christian churches and individuals are at the forefront of homophobic politics" in the West.

ETA: Nor am I convinced that it is valid to compare the Soviet penal code fashioned in the 1920s and 30s by Lenin, Stalin et al with the contemporary situation in the West almost a century later. Western penal codes of the 1920-30s period were equally punitive.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/20/2014 5:58:33 AM >

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(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 5:54:04 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		And I didn't say you didn't say that. I said that your dismissal of Kirata's evidence was ill-founded.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 6:12:17 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And I didn't say you didn't say that. I said that your dismissal of Kirata's evidence was ill-founded.

If you wish to assert that it's valid to compare 1920-30s Soviet Union penal codes and today's laws in the west, then you may have a point.
If however, you feel that this is an unfair comparison, then Kirata's supporting 'evidence' evaporates and his argument, in the absence of evidence, is indeed flimsy.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/20/2014 6:16:09 AM >

_____________________________



(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 6:16:08 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		That's not what I said either. Nor is it what Kirata said.

It's how you chose to spin it, period.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 6:26:29 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Here's exactly what Kirata said:
"But in the atheistic Soviet Union, the penal code required that "sexual relations between men" be punishable "by prison terms of up to five years,” whereas in the United States today the majority of mainline Protestants and Catholics are accepting of homosexuality."

To me that is comparing today's situation in the West today with the Soviet legal code created in the 1930s and 1930s, and that, to my mind is not a fair or valid comparision.

Mr K is also cherry picking to an extent. In the immediate post-revolutionary period and through to circa the mid-1920s (roughly the Lenin period), Russian laws were far more permissive than those that ended up being codified in the penal code. IIRC the penal code was largely the work of Stalin and his cronies.

I'm sure readers of this thread are capable of deciding for themselves whether the comparison is or isn't valid. The have all the evidence they need.



< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/20/2014 6:30:13 AM >

_____________________________



(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 6:30:14 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

In the final analysis, it is social pressure that produces both kinds of homophobes. But in the atheistic Soviet Union, the penal code required that "sexual relations between men" be punishable "by prison terms of up to five years,” whereas in the United States today the majority of mainline Protestants and Catholics are accepting of homosexuality.

So the point is, we are dealing here with the usual anti-religious bigots whose cranky blame-religion chorus is nothing more or less than a clown act fueled by ignorance and bile.

If you wish to contest the observation that religion(s) lead the charge against marriage equality and promotes homophobia, I am afraid you will need far more persuasive evidence than the false dichotomy central to this flimsy piece of sophistry.

Can any one nominate one Western country where some significant Christian churches and individuals are not at the forefront of those forces denying equality to queers? I don't know of any. I rather suspect that no such country exists.

IOW through out the West, Christian churches and individuals are at the forefront of homophobic politics. For instance, that paragon of sexual morality and ethics, the Catholic Church is prominent in anti-marriage equality and promoting homophobia universally. Homophobia like all social neuroses feeds off precisely the "ignorance and bile" that you attribute to proponents of marriage and legal equality. "Ignorance and bile" are necessary pre-requisites to an aggressive homophobic stance, such as that of the Catholic Church. So, any "ignorance and bile" is on the homophobic side of the argument that you choose to adovcate.

It's a neat rhetorical trick to accuse your opponents of precisely the negative reactionary flaws inherent in your own position - a neat trick but nonethless, an epic fail.

When half of the religious are accepting of homosexuality and half are not, it is immediately obvious that religion per se cannot be the determining factor in the picture, yet you and others are clearly willing to leap at any pretense for a broad attack on religion as a whole. I don't know what kind of personal animus motivates such intellectual dishonesty, but no amount of self-righteous posturing will make anything good or noble out of it.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/20/2014 6:41:51 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 6:40:02 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


To me that is . . .


Here's exactly your difficulty. You think it's subjective.

I've already explained, and you simply ignore the explanation, offering no counterargument, simply repeating your claim. It's a pointless circle.

Find some time and reflect. My responses would be giving you the same answer over and over, so just pretend I did.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/20/2014 6:41:42 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 6:41:03 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

When half of the religious are accepting of homosexuality and half are not, it is immediately obvious that religion per se cannot be the determining factor in the picture, yet you and others are clearly willing to leap at any pretense for a broad attack on religion as a whole. I don't know what kind of personal animus motivates such intellectual dishonesty, but no amount of self-righteous posturing will make anything good or noble out of it.

K.



I didn't attack religion as a whole. There is no basis for this claim whatsoever in my text.

I specifically directed my comments at "some significant Christian churches and individuals", "religion(s)" and used the Catholic Church as example of these churches. I used of the plural form of religion(s) deliberately with the specific intention of eliminating the interpretation you are claiming.

Nor did I suggest that religion or religion(s) was the "determining factor" in the situation, as you claim. I did say, and the text will confirm that "Christian churches and individuals are at the forefront" of homophobic politics. (Music Mystery, are you listening? Nothing in my text at all about religion being a "sole perpetrator' of homophobia as you erroneously concluded in your first post)

I am perfectly aware that several Christian churches and many individuals are far more elightened in their attitudes towards queers than some of the more reactionary ones. It's sad that you have chosen to ignore what I wrote and invent a meaning that has no basis in my text. It seems to be a disease today for some reason.

If any one is in any doubt can I suggest a careful re-reading of my post?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/20/2014 7:07:31 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 6:49:11 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


To me that is . . .


Here's exactly your difficulty.

I've already explained, and you simply ignore the explanation, offering no counterargument, simply repeating your claim. It's a pointless circle.

Find some time and reflect. My responses would be giving you the same answer over and over, so just pretend I did.




Here's exactly your difficulty.

I've already explained, and you simply ignore the explanation, offering no counterargument, simply repeating your claim. It's a pointless circle.

I have taken the trouble to explain why Mr K's 'evidence is invalid, which you continue to pointedly ignore. You have offered nothing to the discussion other than your opinion that my position is "ill-founded".

Find some time and reflect. My responses would be giving you the same answer over and over, so just pretend I did.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/20/2014 6:50:33 AM >

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(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 6:54:56 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

Have fun then.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 7:01:53 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		You too

_____________________________



(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 7:06:57 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		So other than everyone else is wrong (have you met Ken?), and that you didn't say any of the things people perceived in your posts, what exactly ARE you claiming?

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 7:11:53 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		At the risk of repeating myself, my claim is some significant Christian churches and individuals are at the forefront of homophobic politics in the West today.

I am amazed that any one would contest this claim.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/20/2014 7:13:20 AM >

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(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 180
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