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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 8:04:57 AM   
Kirata


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You're not thinking this through. I don't know where he might come in. I can't be everywhere at once, and I don't want a gunfight in the house. Situational awareness is too limited. My vision is blocked in every direction by walls, and interior walls will not stop a bullet. Few things are more dangerous than a gunfight in a house. Even the police don't risk it without an armed team. If I slip outside quietly, away from where I last saw him, I have the advantage. I know he's there, but he doesn't know I'm there.

K.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 361
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 8:12:38 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I have the advantage.



Yeah, it's who's controlling the situation. Proactive versus reactive. The upper hand is the stronger position.

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“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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Profile   Post #: 362
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 8:18:08 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


You're not thinking this through. I don't know where he might come in. I can't be everywhere at once, and I don't want a gunfight in the house. Situational awareness is too limited. My vision is blocked in every direction by walls, and interior walls will not stop a bullet. Few things are more dangerous than a gunfight in a house. Even the police don't risk it without an armed team. If I slip outside quietly, away from where I last saw him, I have the advantage. I know he's there, but he doesn't know I'm there.

K.



Yes, the cowards way is to go hunt someone down in the dark without knowing enough facts to ascertain if the person is currently a threat. How is someone a threat to you "If I slip outside quietly, away from where I last saw him, I have the advantage. I know he's there, but he doesn't know I'm there." Seems to throw self-defense out the window at that point. What you are describing doesn't even sound like manslaughter, it sounds like FIRST-DEGREE MURDER. Slinking out in the dark to shoot him when he can't see you. WOW HOW BRAVE OF YOU!!!!!! Perhaps Hendrix should be awarded a medal for being so incredibly BRAVE.

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 8:19:50 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I have the advantage.



Yeah, it's who's controlling the situation. Proactive versus reactive. The upper hand is the stronger position.


If you have the upper hand it is NOT SELF DEFENSE. By definition.

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Profile   Post #: 364
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 8:28:06 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I have the advantage.



Yeah, it's who's controlling the situation. Proactive versus reactive. The upper hand is the stronger position.


If you have the upper hand it is NOT SELF DEFENSE. By definition.


Sure it is. You conflate one's position with the reason for having that position. Self-defense is the reason, one's position is the response.



_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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Profile   Post #: 365
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 11:13:21 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
LadyPact... I am doing fine... I am getting younger and better looking what else could I ask for in my imagination.

I think a way for you to look at this is... what would you do... Would you leave the safety of your home knowing the police were minutes away to confront an unknown in the dark?

Butch

Butch, that's good to hear. I need to have that kind of imagination for Myself in My own case. LOL.

I honestly might try the outside route. House layout might even play a part in it. What kind of front and back doors I had probably would, too. I can't say I'm real big on knowing the police are minutes away, either. Without knowing certain variables, I can't promise I would have stayed inside.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
My point was at the time that Hendrix went outside, Westbrook was NOT on the porch. So why does Hendrix need to go outside at the point. If he could have waited 5 minutes, Westbrook probably would have just wandered off. I really feel some patience would have resulted in one less senseless death.

There were already eleven minutes where he didn't wander off, so I'm not willing to bank on that, either. I'm also considering that Westbrook had been on the porch, not once, but twice.





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Profile   Post #: 366
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 2:54:24 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


You're not thinking this through. I don't know where he might come in. I can't be everywhere at once, and I don't want a gunfight in the house. Situational awareness is too limited. My vision is blocked in every direction by walls, and interior walls will not stop a bullet. Few things are more dangerous than a gunfight in a house. Even the police don't risk it without an armed team. If I slip outside quietly, away from where I last saw him, I have the advantage. I know he's there, but he doesn't know I'm there.

So, if you don't know where he might come in your house how do you know where he is outside to go confront him? While you are out back looking for him might he not come in the front?

The fact is this guy knew where the victim was the whole time. All he had to do was turn on a light and act like a human being and this would have been nothing.

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Profile   Post #: 367
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 3:41:09 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
No. You interpreted what you saw. You were not under stress and did not have to make any snap judgments. Now try and catch that cat in a hurry.

And I'll remind you again this is not just my opinion this is the opinion of every special forces operator on the planet.

I have been in half a dozen of those "stress" situations and have never resorted to a snap decision.
Not even when a fool made every mistake possible, creating a situation that even you with your oh no that can't really be
a gun and it must have been a car backfiring attitude would have believed you were about to die.
He was 1/2 second from the pearly gates when even in the midst of drawing my weapon I reevaluated.
He had by this time done enough stupid things that most people would have shot him and walked.
He was so dumb it was a virtual suicide.
I have faced down drug dealers, crack heads and one guy who made the mistake of trying to sneak up on me in the dark
Because he, like you assumed I couldn't do what I can do.
A woman threatening to kill a wedding party( who I faced down unarmed, she and the wedding party thought I was
) only made the wedding interesting for me, not stressful.
I may not be normal but I am the guy you want between you and danger.

Sure you have.

Do you know how people who have actually been in combat know people others who have been in combat? They'll do pretty much anything to avoid ever being back there again. You don't therefore you have never actually been there.

Who said I want to have another confrontation? Sur wasn't me.
Sounds a lot like you are calling me a liar.
None of the incidents I mentioned qualify as being in combat.


Perhaps you should re-read the definition of the word: Combat.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 368
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 3:48:36 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The fact is this guy knew where the victim was the whole time. All he had to do was turn on a light and act like a human being and this would have been nothing.


Yes, but he was *afraid*, Ken. You can't go around requiring that people act like humans, all reasonable and stuff, if they're *afraid*.



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Profile   Post #: 369
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 3:58:40 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
all he did was knock and ring the bell... you show me any account that says otherwise.

Show you an account? Do you want me to read it for you too, or can you manage that yourself?

Both of the links in the OP say Westbrook was trying to open the door.



Oh, so because the person rang the doorbell and jingled the handle a few times, that's total justification to shot them dead in a hail of bullets?

Careful Kirata, but your 'lunatic fantasies' are showing again....

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 370
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 4:10:42 PM   
joether


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Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
My point was at the time that Hendrix went outside, Westbrook was NOT on the porch. So why does Hendrix need to go outside at the point. If he could have waited 5 minutes, Westbrook probably would have just wandered off. I really feel some patience would have resulted in one less senseless death.

I don't entirely disagree with you, and I'd have stayed inside too under different circumstances, by which I mean if I was alone. But having my wife or child in the house changes the calculation. I don't know who this guy is, I don't know if he's armed, I don't know what his intentions are, but if something's going to happen I damn well want it to happen outside, not inside.


So you would foolishly leave the line of defenses you had, to confront a possible opponent, in the open, at night, without any clue if that opponent was hostile or not, nor if it was an ambush, when the police were minutes away?

There was no need for the gun owner to go outside in the first place. That's the whole point here. He made a really dumb mistake and now an innocent life is lost. That doesn't exactly help gun rights for citizens in this country!


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 371
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 4:45:13 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I have the advantage.

Yeah, it's who's controlling the situation. Proactive versus reactive. The upper hand is the stronger position.


Wow, both of you have no clue about what a combat advantage is defined. You go outside of your home is usually defined as 'lost of an advantage'. Going out in the open is usually defined as 'lost of an advantage'. Going into the night without a flashlight or some other light source is usually defined as 'lost of an advantage'. Not knowing if the intruder is alone before the other three sentences is ALSO a 'lost of an advantage'.

Now here's the part that for anyone else on this boards makes sense. But for you two characters, the concept is totally lost on you....

When you announce your presence by calling out to the intruder to identify themselves, you took another 'lost of an advantage'. Because element of surprise only works if the opponent is not aware of your presence.

You two fail at 'situational awareness 101' and 'self defense 101'. Neither of you would be controlling the situation, but the situation controlling your ego which is over-riding your good judgement. I would not want either one of you having control of a firearm in the same situation. You both clearly do not understand it. An when it comes to firearms, handling them is YOUR responsibility.

The proactive approach was already handled. There was no need to go outside and confront the person directly. Until that person attempts to gain entry, its not self defense. That guy took the law into his own hands and got someone killed. Last I checked, armed vigilantism is outlawed in most states if not all of them!

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Profile   Post #: 372
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 7:05:19 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		FR

Man, it's funny watching the "hide and pray" contingent putting themselves through the contortions on this thread.

The guy talking about "failing classes," while he can't even conjugate a verb is a crack-up.



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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 373
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 7:34:04 PM   
Aylee


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Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

Man, it's funny watching the "hide and pray" contingent putting themselves through the contortions on this thread.

The guy talking about "failing classes," while he can't even conjugate a verb is a crack-up.





It is because they believe that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

And just to add:

“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity” - Sigmund Freud

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Profile   Post #: 374
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 7:42:32 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Yes, the cowards way is to go hunt someone down in the dark...

You're just making shit up as you go along. It wasn't cowardly a minute ago, it was foolhardy and risky!

The safest place for Hendrix and for you would be TO STAY IN THE HOUSE... Why would I leave the safety and comfort of my home at 4 a.m. to confront someone who might be armed

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

What you are describing doesn't even sound like manslaughter, it sounds like FIRST-DEGREE MURDER. Slinking out in the dark to shoot him when he can't see you. WOW HOW BRAVE OF YOU!!!!!! Perhaps Hendrix should be awarded a medal for being so incredibly BRAVE.

I never said anything about shooting him when he can't see me, or even about shooting him at all. I think it would benefit you to consider the fact that the ugly crap you're ranting about here came from your mind, not mine. There's food for thought there, if you have enough integrity to digest it.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/7/2014 7:56:47 PM >

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 7:53:23 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Last I checked, armed vigilantism is outlawed in most states if not all of them!


Not any more, a number of states have effectively legalized 2nd degree murder.

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Profile   Post #: 376
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 7:56:37 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity” - Sigmund Freud


This is not a statement that appears in any translation of any of Freud's works. It is a paraphrase of a statement from the essay "Guns, Murders, and the Constitution" (February 1990) by Don B. Kates, Jr. where Kates summarizes his views of passages in Dreams in Folklore (1958) by Freud and David E. Oppenheim, while disputing statements by Emmanuel Tanay in "Neurotic Attachment to Guns" in a 1976 edition of The Fifty Minute Hour: A Collection of True Psychoanalytic Tales (1955) by Robert Mitchell Lindner:

Dr. Tanay is perhaps unaware of — in any event, he does not cite — other passages more relevant to his argument. In these other passages Freud associates retarded sexual and emotional development not with gun ownership, but with fear and loathing of weapons. The probative importance that ought to be attached to the views of Freud is, of course, a matter of opinion. The point here is only that those views provide no support for the penis theory of gun ownership.

Due to misreading of this essay and its citations, this paraphrase of an opinion about Freud's ideas has been wrongly attributed to Freud himself, and specifically to his 10th Lecture "Symbolism in Dreams" in General Introduction to Psychoanalysis on some internet forum pages: alt.quotations, uk.politics.guns, talk.politics.guns, can.talk.guns , etc.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud#Misattributed

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/7/2014 8:31:58 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud


Are you attempting to make a point that people who are pro gun control are afraid of weapons?

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 3/7/2014 8:33:00 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 378
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 12:24:04 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


You're not thinking this through. I don't know where he might come in. I can't be everywhere at once, and I don't want a gunfight in the house. Situational awareness is too limited. My vision is blocked in every direction by walls, and interior walls will not stop a bullet. Few things are more dangerous than a gunfight in a house. Even the police don't risk it without an armed team. If I slip outside quietly, away from where I last saw him, I have the advantage. I know he's there, but he doesn't know I'm there.

K.



Yes, the cowards way is to go hunt someone down in the dark without knowing enough facts to ascertain if the person is currently a threat. How is someone a threat to you "If I slip outside quietly, away from where I last saw him, I have the advantage. I know he's there, but he doesn't know I'm there." Seems to throw self-defense out the window at that point. What you are describing doesn't even sound like manslaughter, it sounds like FIRST-DEGREE MURDER. Slinking out in the dark to shoot him when he can't see you. WOW HOW BRAVE OF YOU!!!!!! Perhaps Hendrix should be awarded a medal for being so incredibly BRAVE.

No the coward hides in the closet and hopes for the best.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 379
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 12:25:27 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I have the advantage.



Yeah, it's who's controlling the situation. Proactive versus reactive. The upper hand is the stronger position.


If you have the upper hand it is NOT SELF DEFENSE. By definition.

So for it to be self defense you have to give the bad guy the advantage?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 380
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