What good is morality anyway? (Full Version)

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BenevolentM -> What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 8:25:57 PM)

What is morality and what good is it?




Rawni -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 8:34:17 PM)

I don't know... I never claimed to be moral. That was the one thing I always left out, on purpose. Because if I said I was, I would be lying and that would be unethical. [;)]




BenevolentM -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 8:36:32 PM)

There does appear to be a relationship between morality and violence.




Rawni -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 8:38:10 PM)

Now... I am not violent, but if I was I would be moral about it... I mean ethical. They would totally deserve it.




BenevolentM -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 8:48:27 PM)

As I pointed out in

Take Responsibility
http://www.collarchat.com/m_4653153/tm.htm
Post #8

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

If the goal is to kill us, suffering is an inefficient means to kill someone.


This is why social darwinism does not work. If the problem stems from the expression of defective genes, causing those who have the defective genes to suffer will not result in an extinction.


Those who pretend to be morally upright often become violent and justify violence against those they deem immoral. The problem is as I pointed out that unless you are willing to condone genocide little is accomplished. If an angry mob is running after you, you might be inclined to believe that their intention is to kill you. So we have something of a conundrum here. You have a desire to kill that achieves nothing.




BenevolentM -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 8:51:59 PM)

In post #17 I write

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Could it be that what people think is social darwinism, survival of the fitness, has little to do with genocide, death as a common side effect, but not the principle effect. It is instead an attempt to encourage useful behaviors; thus, it has nothing to do with survival of the fittest.


This makes some sense of it, but I am left unsatisfied.




ZGWHopeful -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 9:02:45 PM)

Morality and ethics are what separate us from the animals. Do away with them and, at the risk of hyperbole, it's not a huge leap of logic to "My neighbor has a better <thing> than I. I should stab them and take it."




BenevolentM -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 9:12:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZGWHopeful

Morality and ethics are what separate us from the animals. Do away with them and, at the risk of hyperbole, it's not a huge leap of logic to "My neighbor has a better <thing> than I. I should stab them and take it."


I do not believe this to be entirely accurate.




Rawni -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 9:13:07 PM)

I kind of thought that this thread had a point and it might be being made elsewhere. Damn, and I was just starting to have a good time. Guess not. Denied! [:(]

Why did it take a few posts to bring out the truth or the point? I feel tricked and involved. That wasn't nice.




BenevolentM -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 9:34:34 PM)

When people are acting on a righteous impulse, the word impulse is revealing.




Rawni -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 9:37:59 PM)

Would righteous impulse then be considered moral and possibly violent?




BenevolentM -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 9:40:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rawni

Would righteous impulse then be considered moral and possibly violent?


A righteous impulse is usually regarded as moral and is often violent.




BenevolentM -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 9:46:01 PM)

Much that is thought of as righteous can be traced back to animal behaviors such defense of a territory.




Rawni -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 9:49:10 PM)

Ahh... so then, self imposed righteous impulse is a bad thing.

Okay... I promise to try not to impulsively mark my territory and pee on everything.




BenevolentM -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 9:52:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rawni

Ahh... so then, self imposed righteous impulse is a bad thing.

Okay... I promise to try not to impulsively mark my territory and pee on everything.


You used the word self-imposed. I did not. Nor did I say that righteous impulse is necessarily a bad thing. So what is this territory of yours that you will voluntarily refrain from peeing on?




BenevolentM -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 10:07:08 PM)

What is righteous, ethical, or moral appears to be chiefly governed by our instincts.




BenevolentM -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 10:09:16 PM)

Don't look crossed eyed or else.




Rawni -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 10:11:29 PM)

How can someone impose righteous impulse? Thus.. my self-imposed.





RemoteUser -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 10:12:27 PM)

Morality defines the personal intrinsic value an action possesses to an individual. Shared values create the illusion of common morality, although there is no practical way to view it as an absolute with the inherent factors to consider. That's why an individual who attempts to adhere to a moral code or practice may not be able to relate to all of its finer points.

That value is usually filtered in the most basic terms as "good" or "bad", and often results in the assignment of a reaction that is weighed at some level (conscious or unconscious) and found as possessing merit relating to the action in question.

The reaction does not have to be violent, any more than the value must be viewed as wrong.

The point, if you will, of morality is to allow definition of the self in relation to the perceived actions and behaviours of everyone else. You don't judge another human being as being bad because you need to define them; you do it to define how you wish to react to the person you are judging. Call it inverted introspection, if the simplification helps.

Viewed this way, in direct relation to violence, the process must be viewed backwards. A reaction of violence came from the perceived measurement of the victim by the aggressor. To give an example couched in personalized terms (although this is mere hyperbole):

I hit someone because I reacted to a negative feeling.
That negative feeling came from a negative perception of the person I hit.
That negative perception came from my translation of the other person's behaviour.

This aggressive result is a defense mechanism built in to handle a perceived threat. It is not the ideal result, nor is it the only one that could be available. Take the example to the next stage, with more details - say the aggressor is a policeman who shoots a criminal threatening the life of a third individual. From the viewpoint of the policeman:

- they shot someone
- they did it because they felt it was the right response to the threat that the criminal posed to the third person
- the threat made by the criminal to the third party was perceived as wrong
- the criminal was wrong because he was challenging the moral code the policeman has chosen to enforce

The perceived threat here is made by the criminal against the policeman's chosen code of morality. While the third party is the intended victim, the criminal has also challenged the policeman by threatening to act in a way that goes against the moral code being presented.

This process can also be a positive one. Consider marriage with the same hyperbole template.

I married someone.
I married them because the act of marriage feels right to me.
It feels right to marry this person because they make me feel loved and happy.
It is good and right to be loved and happy, and this person makes me feel this way.

Sorry if I oversimplified the process here, I just like to keep things simple when providing definition and explanation.




BenevolentM -> RE: What good is morality anyway? (3/8/2014 11:49:45 PM)

Where is mnottertail when you need him?




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