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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 9:47:06 AM

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Hi Tweak,

Fucktoy and you both seem to believe that some people "need" religion and some people don't. But not everyone is religious because they "need" religion. They are religious because religion offers them a way of understanding their experiences.

Science can tell us whether or not our beliefs about physical reality are consonant with its laws. But there are things that science can't explain, experiences for which it can offer no accounting, some of which it even denies are possible.

Your own OOBEs, for example. Science will tell you they are hallucinations, just the brain playing tricks on you, and that you can't really be actually out of your body. Do you only believe they are real because you "need" to believe in them?

In my opinion, all of the problems caused by religion stem from dogmatic and literalistic belief in some book, not in a universal divine reality in which or in whom we are all united. And frankly, I question the validity of even calling the former religion.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/10/2014 10:23:20 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 9:55:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Yes. I suspect that you are correct and that there will always be those who need religion, and that many of the religiously minded citizens of our various countries will always put their religious beliefs ahead of their social obligations.

Social obligation as in feeding the hungry and giving aid and shelter to those who need it? Because if I am not mistaken religious groups already do that, yet your post seems to imply they don't. If memory serves me correctly they majority of charity organizations are religious in some way. So why do you hate on them and try to imply they don't care about anyone.

hate is such a strong word and suggests an emotion you are reading into someone else's post.

As for religious charities feeding the hungry and giving aid and shelter I think we should bear in mind that some explicitly and most implicitly do the work not only because they are decent and dedicated folk but also because it is a form of evangelicalism. Additionally, let's not forget that this charitable work is subsidized by tax sheltering against earned income and so the cost is spread around to all of the taxed population, not just the religious. I have no complaint with that. It is a functional process with some success. I just wish to see that credit is given to the tax codes and the largess of big government.

Yup, you are right. Some of the charities like to spread the word that Jesus loves everyone while helping out with food, clothing and shelter. They like to show others how they have been moved to reach out and help those less fortunate and they do so by going out and helping others. So what is the problem with that? Does it somehow taint the food or make the roof over their head less reliable? When you start a group to go out and replace these evil ones I will say you have room to talk. But until then what is your solution, let them starve? And while I am sure there are some who do it to get tax breaks, I doubt that it the reason most do it. And I am almost positive that the people receiving the aid are not sitting around bitching because the people who fed them might get a tax break, they are just happy they have food.

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 10:19:22 AM

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"You have to have religion and attend church regularly. That is where you meet your most influential clients." .... from a lecturer on law and the community. After he got into politics; he could never live that one down.

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 10:26:14 AM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Hi Tweak,

Fucktoy and you both seem to believe that some people "need" religion and some people don't. But not everyone is religious because they "need" religion. They are religious because religion offers them a way of understanding their experiences.

How is that NOT a need? Wanting to understand one's experiences IS a need that some people have (not everyone has this need). Some people feel ONLY religion can possibly fill that specific need that they have. Hence some people "need" religion. Because, as you describe it, without it, they lack a way to understand their experiences. For those people, religion will always be necessary, i.e., a need.

nec·es·sary adjective \ˈne-sə-ˌser-ē\
: so important that you must do it or have it : absolutely needed

need
nēd
verb
1.require (something) because it is essential or very important.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Kirata)

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 10:31:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Wanting to understand one's experiences IS a need that some people have (not everyone has this need).

If you say so.

K.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 10:33:40 AM

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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

How is that NOT a need? Wanting to understand one's experiences IS a need that some people have (not everyone has this need). Some people feel ONLY religion can possibly fill that specific need that they have. Hence some people "need" religion. Because, as you describe it, without it, they lack a way to understand their experiences. For those people, religion will always be necessary, i.e., a need.

That's one of the best attempts I've ever seen at trying to square a circle.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 10:54:20 AM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Yup, you are right. Some of the charities like to spread the word that Jesus loves everyone while helping out with food, clothing and shelter. They like to show others how they have been moved to reach out and help those less fortunate and they do so by going out and helping others. So what is the problem with that? Does it somehow taint the food or make the roof over their head less reliable? When you start a group to go out and replace these evil ones I will say you have room to talk. But until then what is your solution, let them starve? And while I am sure there are some who do it to get tax breaks, I doubt that it the reason most do it. And I am almost positive that the people receiving the aid are not sitting around bitching because the people who fed them might get a tax break, they are just happy they have food.

Most donations (80+%) to religious organizations get spent on maintaining the organization itself (personnel, building expenses, debt maintenance, etc.) Only a small percentage of it goes to actual charity. What do you think keeps all of those churches/mosques/temples etc. in working condition? Who pays for all the staff? Once you eliminate those expenses there isn't that much that goes to actual charity. For example:

https://www.eccu.org/resources/advisorypanel/2013/surveyreports20

If one wants to donate to actual charities that help actual people without religious strings attached, there are many charities that can be recommended where less than 5% of their budget is spent on administrative costs. For example:

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=topten.detail&listid=113#.Ux35sFxcZRx

If you want your charitable dollars to go farther in terms of helping actual people one is much better off donating somewhere other than your local religious institution. This is an absolute fact.

And anyone who thinks religious charities do not have strings attached when they operate in places like India or Africa are absolutely wrong about that.

Everyone can do what they want with their money, but absolutely do not preach to us about how giving to your local church/mosque/temple is actually helping so many people when only about 5-20 cents on the dollar is even remotely associated with true charity. If you want to support your local church/mosque/temple go ahead. Just don't claim how charitable and socially conscientious one is when most of the money is going to support the actual church/mosque/temple.

There are definitely better ways to spend one's charitable dollars if one actually is interested in having those dollars reach actual people in need.

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 10:58:11 AM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Wanting to understand one's experiences IS a need that some people have (not everyone has this need).

If you say so.

K.

A lot of experiences I engage in require no "explanation" at all. For example, how I feel when I see a beautiful sunset. I don't have the need to have it explained, and if I sought an explanation it certainly would NOT be a religious one.

_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 11:15:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

A lot of experiences I engage in require no "explanation" at all. For example, how I feel when I see a beautiful sunset. I don't have the need to have it explained, and if I sought an explanation it certainly would NOT be a religious one.

Okay, fair enough. But taken in context, I would have thought it clear that ordinary experiences weren't what I was talking about.

K.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 11:24:04 AM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

A lot of experiences I engage in require no "explanation" at all. For example, how I feel when I see a beautiful sunset. I don't have the need to have it explained, and if I sought an explanation it certainly would NOT be a religious one.

Okay, fair enough. But taken in context, I would have thought it clear that ordinary experiences weren't what I was talking about.

K.

I don't require an explanation for my experiences of love or sex either. And by the way, I wouldn't describe what someone feels when they see a beautiful sunset as "ordinary". FAR from ordinary is the experience of a beautiful sunset.

Perhaps religion is what people need when they don't experience regular living as an amazing thing. In which case I would have to categorize the need for religion as a definite deficiency. But I don't see it that way. Certainly a "need" not necessarily a "deficiency". But to see it as anything less than a need is to assume that people invest time and energy in things they don't need in their lives. That seems a weird operative assumption to me. Why would people surround themselves with needlessness???

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(in reply to Kirata)

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 11:27:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Most donations (80+%) to religious organizations get spent on maintaining the organization itself (personnel, building expenses, debt maintenance, etc.) Only a small percentage of it goes to actual charity.

Yeah, and so what? People support religious organizations. I'm assuming you are pointing to churches, mosques, etc. Charity is not their primary purpose.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 11:32:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
"Religion will become as unacceptable as racism"
'No, religion is ruining the world, you need to stop!'

I used to think like this.

Then I slowly realized it was just an opinionated man with a narrow focus complaining about opinionated people with a narrow focus.

The world got rosier the day I finally figured that out.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 11:36:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Perhaps religion is what people need when they don't experience regular living as an amazing thing.

Why is it an amazing thing? Like experiencing a sunset? It's only the functions of a highly developed primordial goo brain. Personally, I find some sunsets to be beautiful quite regularly, but hardly amazing.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 11:49:52 AM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Most donations (80+%) to religious organizations get spent on maintaining the organization itself (personnel, building expenses, debt maintenance, etc.) Only a small percentage of it goes to actual charity.

Yeah, and so what? People support religious organizations. I'm assuming you are pointing to churches, mosques, etc. Charity is not their primary purpose.

Yachtie, read the thread. This was in response to a specific thing. And I agree with you that religious organizations do NOT have charity as their primary purpose. That was my point.

_____________________________

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 11:56:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
"Religion will become as unacceptable as racism"
'No, religion is ruining the world, you need to stop!'

I used to think like this.

Then I slowly realized it was just an opinionated man with a narrow focus complaining about opinionated people with a narrow focus.

The world got rosier the day I finally figured that out.

Once again, MM nails it!

Bravo and thanks for rejoining us here on CM. We missed you.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 12:20:08 PM

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I wouldn't describe what someone feels when they see a beautiful sunset as "ordinary".

Ordinary ordinarily means customary, commonplace, usual; and hearing people babble about "beautiful sunsets" is nothing if not yawningly ordinary.

In fact, here on the Suncoast, beautiful sunsets themselves are commonplace.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Perhaps religion is what people need when they don't experience regular living as an amazing thing.

Amazing means causing sudden wonder or surprise. For most people, I think, "regular living" is fairly predictable if they don't have six kids, three dogs, and a goat in the house.

And if it's not predictable, that soon ceases to be amazing and just becomes usual.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

to see it as anything less than a need is to assume that people invest time and energy in things they don't need in their lives

Well if time and energy are the measure of need, perhaps you have a "need" to avoid feeling curious about anything. I invest my time and energy in things I enjoy, and my curiosity is one of them.

Which reminds me, you mentioned your sex life.....

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/10/2014 12:32:47 PM >

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 12:49:51 PM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I wouldn't describe what someone feels when they see a beautiful sunset as "ordinary".

Ordinary ordinarily means customary, commonplace, usual; and hearing people babble about "beautiful sunsets" is nothing if not yawningly ordinary.

In fact, here on the Suncoast, beautiful sunsets themselves are commonplace.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Perhaps religion is what people need when they don't experience regular living as an amazing thing.

Amazing means causing sudden wonder or surprise. For most people, I think, "regular living" is fairly predictable if they don't have six kids, three dogs, and a goat in the house.

And if it's not predictable, that soon ceases to be amazing and just becomes usual.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

to see it as anything less than a need is to assume that people invest time and energy in things they don't need in their lives

Well if time and energy are the measure of need, perhaps you have a "need" to avoid feeling curious about anything. I invest my time and energy in things I enjoy, and my curiosity is one of them.

Which reminds me, you mentioned your sex life.....

K.

This still doesn't answer the question.

Here are the definitions of necessary and need. I'm using the definitions of these words as they are commonly used AND as I used them in my post.

nec·es·sary adjective \ˈne-sə-ˌser-ē\
: so important that you must do it or have it : absolutely needed

need
nēd
verb
1.require (something) because it is essential or very important.

So if religion is a need it means ONE, people find it essential or important AND TWO they require it in their lives, i.e. so important that they must have it.

How does this differ from your saying, "they are religious because religion offers them a way of understanding their experiences." Are you not saying that they find it essential/important and because of that they have it in their lives.

If we say religion is NOT a need it has to mean at least ONE of TWO things logically. EITHER religion is NOT important/essential OR people don't have to have it in their lives.

But that means that people who are religious spend time and energy on something they think is not important/essential or that they think they don't have to have in their lives. That makes religious people seem stupid. Surely that's not what you mean. I personally think saying a religious person NEEDS religion is a nicer explanation. i.e., they are religious because they find it important/essential and they have to have it in their lives. Honestly, I'm not sure what is so controversial about saying that people need religion. On the definitions of "need" and "necessary" this seems to be a perfectly accurate description.

Again, how many of us are fervent about something unimportant? Someone like that sounds CRAZY to me. Is that what you think religious people are? CRAZY? Because I'm not saying that. I'm saying they are religious because they find it important/essential and they have to have it in their lives.

I think you are operating on a weird definition of "need"……but why do that? I'm not really saying anything that controversial when I say that some people will always need religion. Some people will always find religions important/essential and some people will always have to have it in their lives. Does that help…..

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 2:05:46 PM

kdsub

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That new way of thinking is called tolerance....we could all use a little more of that.

Butch

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(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 2:21:27 PM

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

if religion is a need it means ONE, people find it essential or important AND TWO they require it in their lives

How does this differ from your saying, "they are religious because religion offers them a way of understanding their experiences." Are you not saying that they find it essential/important and because of that they have it in their lives.

Just as in my previous post, where I pointed out your idiosyncratic use of the words "ordinary" and "amazing," you seem to be using the word "need" in a rather idiosyncratic fashion too, as if unaware of its connotations.

Needs are driven. The driver may be biological (we need air to breathe), or the driver may be circumstantial (as when we need a doctor), or the driver may be psychological (as you imply when you speak of someone who needs religion). But in all cases, the need is driving. The individual is in the back seat. So when you talk about people needing religion, you are depersonalizing them; putting them in the position of being mere objects, driven by their need.

But I am saying that is not always the case, and probably seldom the case. People grow up. They choose to live a religious life, or they choose not to, and I am arguing there is a difference between choice and need.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/10/2014 3:13:34 PM >

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/10/2014 2:29:36 PM

Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

But I am saying that is not always the case, and probably less often than some might think. People grow up. They choose to live a religious life, or they choose not to, and I am arguing the difference between choice and need.

K.

No, Kirata! Hating/slamming a religion is a logical, thought-out choice.

Following a religion or being spiritual is because the poor sap is so weak/narrow-minded/gullible/insane/racist/anti-science (take your pick. We've seen a lot of bullshit phrases used on these boards).

When will you learn?

[/sarcasm]

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(in reply to Kirata)

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