quote:

ORIGINAL: altoonamaster

look at the houses these people live in/then ask where does your money go

quote:

ORIGINAL: altoonamaster

for instance dr mike murdock/2 private jets/6 sports cars ans 300 suits now where did all this money come from

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Hi Tweak,

Fucktoy and you both seem to believe that some people "need" religion and some people don't. But not everyone is religious because they "need" religion. They are religious because religion offers them a way of understanding their experiences.

Science can tell us whether or not our beliefs about physical reality are consonant with its laws. But there are things that science can't explain, experiences for which it can offer no accounting, some of which it even denies are possible.

Your own OOBEs, for example. Science will tell you they are hallucinations, just the brain playing tricks on you, and that you can't really be actually out of your body. Do you only believe they are real because you "need" to believe in them?

K.

quote:

In my opinion, all of the problems caused by religion stem from dogmatic and literalistic belief in some book, not in a universal divine reality in which or in whom we are all united. And frankly, I question the validity of even calling the former religion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

TO me a need is something, its all about the very simplest of things, if we don't have it we die. We exist no more. Nobody NEEDS a new car, or NEEDS steak vs. bologna, or NEEDS sex for that matter. ITs a choice to get a new car, eat steak, or have sex. No one is going to die. The want might be so great, it feels like a need but it isn't a need. That's semantics of one word.
Sunsets are quite beautiful, and if I starting thinking about the colors, and how the sun goes down, and the clouds float, and the temperature changes, it simply isn't just beautiful, its amazing too.
I could decide tomorrow I don't want to be a Christian, decide I don't NEED it, because it is a choice. I don't want to do that, because it is the driving force in my life and inspiration. But if I do that, I am sure I would follow into my old footsteps of caring about myself more then anyone else, develop the same habits of practicing things the longer you practice them the more you accept its ok, type thing. I would also lose the knowing I have been developing. Everytime I get it I think "is this self motivated?" SOmetimes I really have to think about it for awhile too. THe knowing is like a an internal pinch from a good mother or father, that says ah ah ah, is that a good choice? What is your motivation of doing that? WIll someone be hurt when you do that, either physically or mentally? It is about patience, love, care, loyalty, understanding, knowledge, openness, and evolving. Yes for me it is the answer of understanding life experiences and having faith.
The intolerance I am finding, is the ones who cry wolf the loudest, and have many choice words about Christians, calling them insane, weak, mental cases, extremists, intolerant, bigots, and the list goes on and on. Its not weak to turn the other cheek, in fact it takes a lot more self discipline and control to do that, then to get angry. I can get quite fired up, I have a history of it. Being a Christian works for me, stiff intolerant laws not so much, but some things just are wrong, and although people shouldn't be judged for it by us, doesn't mean we agree it is right. Religion practiced in its best form is like a beautiful sunset, always changing but having the same elements at the same time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

TO me a need is something, its all about the very simplest of things, if we don't have it we die. We exist no more. Nobody NEEDS a new car, or NEEDS steak vs. bologna, or NEEDS sex for that matter. ITs a choice to get a new car, eat steak, or have sex. No one is going to die. The want might be so great, it feels like a need but it isn't a need. That's semantics of one word.
Sunsets are quite beautiful, and if I starting thinking about the colors, and how the sun goes down, and the clouds float, and the temperature changes, it simply isn't just beautiful, its amazing too.
I could decide tomorrow I don't want to be a Christian, decide I don't NEED it, because it is a choice. I don't want to do that, because it is the driving force in my life and inspiration. But if I do that, I am sure I would follow into my old footsteps of caring about myself more then anyone else, develop the same habits of practicing things the longer you practice them the more you accept its ok, type thing. I would also lose the knowing I have been developing. Everytime I get it I think "is this self motivated?" SOmetimes I really have to think about it for awhile too. THe knowing is like a an internal pinch from a good mother or father, that says ah ah ah, is that a good choice? What is your motivation of doing that? WIll someone be hurt when you do that, either physically or mentally? It is about patience, love, care, loyalty, understanding, knowledge, openness, and evolving. Yes for me it is the answer of understanding life experiences and having faith.
The intolerance I am finding, is the ones who cry wolf the loudest, and have many choice words about Christians, calling them insane, weak, mental cases, extremists, intolerant, bigots, and the list goes on and on. Its not weak to turn the other cheek, in fact it takes a lot more self discipline and control to do that, then to get angry. I can get quite fired up, I have a history of it. Being a Christian works for me, stiff intolerant laws not so much, but some things just are wrong, and although people shouldn't be judged for it by us, doesn't mean we agree it is right. Religion practiced in its best form is like a beautiful sunset, always changing but having the same elements at the same time.

This may just be a semantic difference, but if I described something as "driving force in my life and inspiration" that sounds like a need to me. If you look at the definition of "need" and the way "need" is used in the English language it is not restricted to food/water/air. The word "need" is defined in a way to include what you are describing - something which is a driving force for someone. It is also defined as something "deemed" necessary, i.e., something that someone decides is important to them. I am NOT using need in a negative way here. You and others seem to think I am. When I say I need sex, I absolutely do NOT mean something negative by that statement. I don't consider myself insane, weak, mental case, extremist, intolerant or a bigot because I "need" sex. So I guess I don't quite understand why you are so opposed to this word. What is it about the word (based on actual definition and English usage) that you feel is negative? Because you are reading something into the word "need" that isn't there. Your use of the word "need" is very narrow but why should I be constrained when I write to use "need" in such a narrow way?

I need sex. I disagree with you that someone cannot describe their relationship with sex in that way. But my needing sex does not mean that someone else does or that they cannot make a different choice. Obviously someone choosing celibacy does not find sex a need. If this discussion were about sex, I would emphatically say that some people need sex and others don't. Plain and simple. This, in and of itself, does not make one group better than the other. The group that doesn't need sex is not necessarily "superior" to the group that does, and vice versa. I don't see why this is different from saying some people need religion in their lives and some people don't.

My issue with religion is NOT that some people will always need religion in their lives. In and of itself there is NOTHING wrong with that. My issues with religion are in the way that one or some religion(s) are used in society and politically to undermine the religious and secular beliefs of others. My point about religion being a need is that it could never disappear from the Earth because some people will always seek it out, and will always prefer to have it in their lives and it is their prerogative to do so. Again, what is negative about that? NOTHING. It only becomes negative if they then insist on imposing their belief system on others. I have NEVER once said that people are not entitled to freedom of religion.

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
If people's beliefs are UN-necessary, then why persist in them?? Truly.

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

FR

To no one in particular.

Let me turn this on its head for a moment. If religion is NOT a need, then why don't we just legislate it away like other things in society that we deem unnecessary?

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

FR

To no one in particular.

Let me turn this on its head for a moment. If religion is NOT a need, then why don't we just legislate it away like other things in society that we deem unnecessary? Because it is either necessary or it is unnecessary. If religion is not fundamental why protect it as a fundamental right in the Constitution? If it's just something people like, like the color blue, why does this need Constitutional protection?

I really don't understand why religious people would ever want to make it sound like religion is an entirely optional thing for them personally. Because that implies they could just as easily live without it. Is that really the take away that people would like me to have from this discussion. That all of you insist on persisting in something that causes a lot of societal strife and discord in a pluralistic society when you could just as easily live without it. Why should something like that need Constitutional protection at all then?

I say it IS a need for some; therefore it needs a certain protection. It is a need; therefore it will ALWAYS be with us as long as humankind is on this planet.

We have to work together to minimize the negative impact that any one religion can have on others (other religions, other people, etc.) by creating a fair society that does NOT run on the religious principles of one or another religion. And this will ALWAYS be necessary, because religion, in my mind, will never die (despite the optimism expressed in the original post of this thread).

If people's beliefs are UN-necessary, then why persist in them?? Truly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Here is the DEFINITION OF NECESSARY:

nec·es·sary adjective \ˈne-sə-ˌser-ē\ : so important that you must do it or have it

This implies that you can determine IF IT IS IMPORTANT OR NOT.

Well no, it doesn't imply that. It means what it says.

The extent to which a connotation of compulsion attaches to the word "need" varies with context. If you need a new car, not so much. But in saying that people "need" religion, the context is psychological and the implication attaches that they are driven into religion by their insecurities and fears. So you can thump your dictionary and claim whatever you like, but when you find that it gets a bad reaction remember I told you so.

K.

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ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Really, with all the religion this, religion that ... why do people hate religion so much? Hell, which is more dangerous in actuality, practicing religious beliefs or consuming alcohol? Never heard of anyone dying driving while religious.

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ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

May I see a show of hands of people who know someone who died of not having sex? All sarcasm welcome.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
It seems to me that a certain proportion of believers in any ideological or belief system maintain their beliefs/ideologies because doing so satisfies an emotional need those people have.

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

i never heardof anyone dying from lack of religion either
unless someone killed them for it

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Religion kills. History has shown that time and time again.

Because extreme intolerance results in killing people simply because they believe in something else.