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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Well, I think the main points have been covered.

Yet, yet . . . in times of yore, when a woman's livelihood very often depended upon attracting a male enough for him to want to make her his wife. The alternative was serious economic and social hardship. Yet women still had to learn not to be pushovers because, for various reasons, it just didn't look good otherwise.

Is this what you're getting at, Akasha?

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A lot of people have said supply and demand or the numbers issue is a reason. Still, is that enough reason a man would be so desperate in his approach? Or, does that say that sub men are willing to "settle" readily and therefore cut corners on their selection process out of sheer desperation? That would be horrible.

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Others have said porn. Yes, to some degree, it's bad learning. But a lot of men still know better and have read, seen, heard, been told and still present themselves as a caricature of submission, or think that blatant acts of submission (over doing it in their posturing, demeanor) will turn femdom heads (toward them, not away with eyes rolling). And in most cases it's just not true.

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Femdoms state again and again -- they want a relationship first, the dynamic second - and even those that are into play only or topping/bottoming still seek connection before dynamic.

I think a problem is that some sub men get genuine pleasure in their posturing process even though it does not work. It's still gratifying to them on some level to present themselves as meek and available and ready to go - even if it fails. Or, in their mind, the woman they seek WOULD want that. So many people say it's a numbers game, but in reality men that posture so meekly or are "ready to give it up" are alienating more women than they are attracting.

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The women they do attract are probably predators -- in a sense of pros seeking clients, or manipulators seeking someone to use. I don't mean "predator" in a totally horrifically negative way - I should say "opportunists" - the women that know what these men want because they advertise it so blatantly. I hate to use a bad "virginity" example again, but I think subs that "give it up" so easily end up not keeping the interest of the women that DO take them up on it - because these women want what they want and the men are disposable, because there's another guy eager to "give it up" too.

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Sub men I think would do much better if they protected their willingness to submit and made it a mysterious onion to be peeled - and only for a woman that meant something to him.

Akasha

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ORIGINAL: MsLadySue

In my opinion and from experience, it seems many 'sub males' watch way too much BDSM porn. What they seek is the leather clad, spike heeled, breasts almost falling out of the corset Domme.

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ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

If you at some point would like to talk about why some "dominant" men often try to talk dominant women into being submissive...I have any answer for that too.

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Do not try to give me that tired old story about how guys dont try hard enough in the initial contact either.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I had a kind of epiphany about that, a while ago. A woman here on the forums said, 'Women are the gatekeepers for sex, men are the gatekeepers for relationships'. We men want to get into their pants, they want to get into our minds. Both sides are so frequently disappointed, in such different ways.

Men don't value mental and emotional connections the way women do (or so I've concluded). So they don't offer it. This is clear in their initial emails: the men who aren't up for connecting in that way will make it evident in various ways - by talking only about their fantasy, by doing some hideous 'I'm so totally a slave' act, by enumerating their kink interests, by writing an initial email like they're applying for a job. Anything, that is, other than *connect*, person to person, with the woman to whom they're writing.

I don't think it's that difficult, once you've got the knack. Despite the disparity in numbers.

Women find that so *cold*. I think a lot of men radically just don't get that.

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha


In general, sub men come across as "easy." They are ready to give up their "surrender" pretty quickly.

Hell, a lot of it offer it up at the introduction level (in person and in email) rather than look for a connection first and determining if the woman is someone "worth" submitting to.

Why don't more sub men "cherish" their surrender/submission like some women traditionally "cherish" and hold into their virginity - being selective about the process and making sure it means something?

I don't want this to turn into a debate about whether or not women cherish virginity and what that means for gender roles, OR how MEN also cherish their virginity.

I have found that if a man is somewhat protective and selective of his submission rather than "shopping it around," it makes that submission all the more intriguing and interesting. It also assures me he is SELECTIVE and I want a man to want to submit to ME, not just "a femdom who happens to say yes." It also shows that surrender isn't just something he wants asap to get his rocks off - that it is a process of value that takes connection.

The best connections I have ever made are with men that gave no hint of their actual submission/surrender (no posturing, no rituals) until we were firmly at a place of mutual interest and I initiated the process - and it meant I had to seduce him, for lack of a better word.

Most sub men are just too easy - they are ready/eager/willing/and sadly sometimes desperate to give it up - even before they know anything about me. And that means I know they are approaching other women the same way.

Akasha

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ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

I actually don't believe those sort of men want to be dominated. I believe they are trying to prove they are dominant, for the most part to themselves. In the same manner that a sub might try very hard to get someone they believe to be aggressive. They are trying to prove, if to no one other than themselves, that they are more submissive by putting up with someone who is more aggressive. I believe that the sort of dominant men who hit on dominant women do it because they believe they can some how turn them to their way of thinking. Consider it in same way you would if you decided to become a prize fighter. You would want to take on the best to prove you are actually the best. Or if it is simpler think of all those guys that ladies all know who believe they can make a lesbian love cock.....because they are just that good. It is all about proving a point and with men (sorry Jeff, not insulting I swear)they often need to a prove a point more than women do.