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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/17/2014 3:08:40 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

So, my question goes to if genetics is at the root of gay sexual orientation should we not consider all the varieties of sexual orientation as inborn? I seriously don't think so.

That sounds more like a debate tactic than a scientific question. To me, it makes far more sense to evaluate evidence for/against a genetic link to homosexuality on its own merits, rather than by analogy to other sexual identities.


quote:

To your second question: it might seem so if you accept the definition that a fetish is a normal variation of human sexuality.

With a definition that broad, is there any sexual activity that isn't a fetish?


quote:

In any case we are still left with the probably unsolvable question of what combination of heredity and nurture lead to the development of sexual preference.

I agree that exactly what causes homosexulaity is far from settled.


quote:

I suspect that the notion that homosexuality is inbred was a political development, wisely adopted to put an end to abusive prejudice.

That seems a bit too calculated to me. Admittedly, I haven't been hugely active in LGBT politics, but I've never participated in or read about a strategy meeting where folks said, "Yeah, let's tell them we were born this way. That's the ticket!" My hypothesis, rooted in my experience and that of queer folks I know, is that people were struck by the involuntary nature of their erotic focus and the absence of any experience of choosing that orientation.


quote:

We are probably all of us bouncing about on a spectrum of sexual preferences and identities.

By "we," do you mean individuals or the species? I'd agree with the latter.

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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/17/2014 4:53:34 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

I am not an atheist, but I agree with some of their claims. I agree that according to objective measures religion performs poorly.


BM....Christianity is a great thing....Christians.....questionable.

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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/17/2014 5:03:36 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
Carnal knowledge is wicked.


And there's one of the big harms of your religion. Convincing members of a species for whom sex is an important part of being healthy and well adjusted to feel guilt and shame about their natural human instincts and behaviors has caused incalculable harm.

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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/17/2014 5:16:54 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
To answer your first question: cross dressing seems to be an erotic orientation. The same can be said for sexual sadism and masochism. People identify themselves by their behavior in these categories just as gay people identify themselves in their category. So, my question goes to if genetics is at the root of gay sexual orientation should we not consider all the varieties of sexual orientation as inborn? I seriously don't think so.


I think you're conflating two different things. At least my sexuality and my fetishes aren't remotely the same thing.


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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/17/2014 5:20:18 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
A built in convenience that the survivors have passed along, I think.


What else would instincts be?

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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/18/2014 2:16:48 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

That sounds more like a debate tactic than a scientific question. To me, it makes far more sense to evaluate evidence for/against a genetic link to homosexuality on its own merits, rather than by analogy to other sexual identities.

Biological models are commonly used for comparison in research. Not a debate tactic at all.

quote:

With a definition that broad, is there any sexual activity that isn't a fetish?

For the sake of argument let's suppose not, okay? Should we not then consider homosexual activity on a par with transvestitism? And give cross-dressers the same political equality that gays seek?

btw: Psychologists and medical practitioners regard fetishism as normal variations of human sexuality[citation needed]. Even those orientations that are potential forms of fetishism are usually considered unobjectionable as long as all people involved feel comfortable. Only if the diagnostic criteria presented in detail below are met is the medical diagnosis of fetishism justified. The leading criterion is that a fetishist is ill only if he or she suffers from the condition, not simply because of the condition itself.

SOURCE

quote:

That seems a bit too calculated to me. Admittedly, I haven't been hugely active in LGBT politics, but I've never participated in or read about a strategy meeting where folks said, "Yeah, let's tell them we were born this way. That's the ticket!"


A committee meeting is unnecessary for the formation of a political viewpoint:

The search for ‘gay genes’ goes back to 1993, when a US team led by Dr Dean Hamer described a region of DNA located on the X chromosome called Xq28. The region also goes by another name: GAY-1, a genetic marker linked to male homosexuality.

The discovery caused Hamer to be attacked from all sides. “Conservative, right-wing people hated it because they felt that it was saying that being gay is like being black, that it was in-born, that it would somehow ‘excuse’ gay people or give them more rights,” says Hamer. “On the other hand, gay people hated it too because, at that time, there were fears that the discovery would be misused to abort gay babies and wipe gay people off the face of the Earth.”

Although these fears remain, in recent years the search for ‘gay genes’ has become more accepted by the gay community, in no small part because a biological explanation would undermine arguments that being gay is a social or lifestyle choice. Conservative attitudes remain unchanged, however. “They continue to be vehemently opposed to any notion that homosexuality is something natural,” says Hamer.


SOURCE

You will find some research that supports biological factors in the article cited above.

quote:

My hypothesis, rooted in my experience and that of queer folks I know, is that people were struck by the involuntary nature of their erotic focus and the absence of any experience of choosing that orientation.

Don't you suppose dominants, submissives, panty sniffers and shoe lickers have had similar experience? But no one is posing a basis for the origin of their orientations. Which brings me to pedophiles and other topics forbidden here. I do not suggest a comparison to gays. I only suggest that maybe they cannot help being who they are either.

quote:



quote:

We are probably all of us bouncing about on a spectrum of sexual preferences and identities.

By "we," do you mean individuals or the species? I'd agree with the latter.

I mean variation within the species.

I hope my reply has come across in the friendly and uncritical manner I intended.

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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/18/2014 2:20:10 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
A built in convenience that the survivors have passed along, I think.


What else would instincts be?


Suckling motions by a newborn infant would seem more likely inborn rather than sexual preference for example, which develop later as a rule.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/18/2014 2:22:53 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
Carnal knowledge is wicked.


And there's one of the big harms of your religion. Convincing members of a species for whom sex is an important part of being healthy and well adjusted to feel guilt and shame about their natural human instincts and behaviors has caused incalculable harm.

Now we not only know what atheists get right, we know what Christians get wrong.

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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/18/2014 3:47:15 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Suckling motions by a newborn infant would seem more likely inborn rather than sexual preference for example, which develop later as a rule.

Couldn't the suckling motions by a newborn constitute a built in convenience that the survivors have passed along?

P.S. I can remember my sexual orientation from as far back as I can remember. On the other hand I got into girls on leashes because Princess Leia looked hot on a leash. If my sexual orientation had been for Han Solo I'm convinced that I wouldn't be kinky.

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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/18/2014 4:38:42 PM   
BenevolentM


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Today it occurred to me that atheism is a pain reliever. Love of God is painful in a fashion similar to the sort of pain one feels to be apart from a loved one. There are a number of things one can do to help alleviate this pain. For example, going to Church no doubt helps alleviate this pain. If a person ceases to believe in God, there is a reward; they will no longer feel the separation anxiety associated with feelings of love.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

BM....Christianity is a great thing....Christians.....questionable.


Jesus Christ was aware of how the religious can behave most hypocritically in a manner that cannot be justified and warned against this. It is one thing to be in love with someone and another to do right by them. Love is desire, but a desire is not a fulfillment. Love can be and often is impure.

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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/19/2014 5:01:17 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
BM....Christianity is a great thing....Christians.....questionable.


I'd say just the opposite. The Christians I've known personally by and far I think were god people. Even the parents I was talking about who were horrible to their daughter, even then I think they were trying to be good people, they were just so fucked up on kool-aid that they got utterly convinced that wrong was right.

Now before someone gets the wrong idea I'm not claiming that all forms of Christianity teach that homosexuals should be oppressed, some denominations have gotten over it just like the aforementioned parents.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has elected it's first openly gay bishop. The Church of England is struggling with the issue and hopefully will become more accepting in the near future, they might soon have their first openly married gay clergy. Here's Father Andrew Cain and his fiance:






Attachment (1)

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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/19/2014 5:06:46 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Today it occurred to me that atheism is a pain reliever.


And yet Marx appears to have had it the other way around.



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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/19/2014 7:52:51 AM   
chatterbox24


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Au contraire! This slightly wiccan christian has to agree with the cocky catholic. It is just like an excellent parent but with better benefits.
(I say slightly wiccan because I do respect the earth, garden and recycle and stuff)
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
As I pointed out earlier things of God are not fully within our grasp. To God we are foolish children in need of parenting.


God's not doing any parenting. If there was such a being who was actually acting as a parent there would be no need to come up with rationalizations like this.


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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/19/2014 9:46:25 AM   
Zonie63


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If God is supposed to be "parenting," then it seems that He has left us with a set of cruel babysitters for the past few thousand years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Au contraire! This slightly wiccan christian has to agree with the cocky catholic. It is just like an excellent parent but with better benefits.
(I say slightly wiccan because I do respect the earth, garden and recycle and stuff)
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
As I pointed out earlier things of God are not fully within our grasp. To God we are foolish children in need of parenting.


God's not doing any parenting. If there was such a being who was actually acting as a parent there would be no need to come up with rationalizations like this.




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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/19/2014 10:43:24 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Today it occurred to me that atheism is a pain reliever.


And yet Marx appears to have had it the other way around.

Grocho figured humor was the best pain reliever where as karl felt religion was the pain that needed to be relieved




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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/19/2014 12:27:00 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Suckling motions by a newborn infant would seem more likely inborn rather than sexual preference for example, which develop later as a rule.

Couldn't the suckling motions by a newborn constitute a built in convenience that the survivors have passed along?

P.S. I can remember my sexual orientation from as far back as I can remember. On the other hand I got into girls on leashes because Princess Leia looked hot on a leash. If my sexual orientation had been for Han Solo I'm convinced that I wouldn't be kinky.

Well then I guess we could say breathing is a built in convenience that the survivors passed along and we would have drained the word 'instinct' of any significant meaning. Doncha think?

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/21/2014 8:12:18 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Well then I guess we could say breathing is a built in convenience that the survivors passed along and we would have drained the word 'instinct' of any significant meaning. Doncha think?


Sure your phrase is vague enough to also encompasse reflexes but unless you plan to claim that sexual orientation is a reflex it doesn't seem like that should be relevant

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 5/21/2014 8:13:33 PM >

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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/21/2014 8:24:50 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
Au contraire! This slightly wiccan christian has to agree with the cocky catholic. It is just like an excellent parent but with better benefits.
(I say slightly wiccan because I do respect the earth, garden and recycle and stuff)


Do you're kids constantly tell each other that they need to have faith that you actually exist?

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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/22/2014 2:20:53 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Do you're kids constantly tell each other that they need to have faith that you actually exist?

Well I would guess that depends. It's probably habit by now, for them. But on the other hand, when I read some people's posts I find it difficult to convince myself that anyone like that could actually exist. I take it on faith, of course. But I still have my doubts.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/22/2014 2:31:48 AM >

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RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/22/2014 5:07:36 AM   
chatterbox24


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What a wonderful question!
I imagine everyday they wonder how they were gifted such a marvelous mother such as myself. They say "am I imagining this or does my mother actually exist?" on other days when I lay down the law, they say " oh how I wish this woman did not exist" and probably wish it so. Deep down they have the faith the rules exist for a reason and the benefits far outweigh the temporary discomfort. Although at the time I am certain they feel they will just die from the injustice of it all!
I also was an oversexed ding bat at one time. Sex the center of my very narrow universe. Was it inborn instinct? I barely think so, no one dies from lack of sex nor lack of excitement, due to their inability to be creative with one partner. as far as you know might have a regular circus de soleil going on at my house.
How did I arrive at the level of faith I have? Maybe it was upbringing? (Which I resented most of my life), or maybe it is the way my brain is wired, or maybe it happened as a process overtime were I was allowed to live on because graciously I cheated death twice. Ever since the last circumstance, I was one of the very very fortunate who does not have to rely on faith alone, I absolutely know God exists.
In off topics I saw where dcnovice wrote 13 things grateful for, do you think it is just a good attitude that allows a person such strength and positive energy in such circumstances?
If you think that is it then lil man you are a complete fool.
I have such a way with words, don't you think? I mean a t-to taller sweetheart I am.
Ah haha.
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
Au contraire! This slightly wiccan christian has to agree with the cocky catholic. It is just like an excellent parent but with better benefits.
(I say slightly wiccan because I do respect the earth, garden and recycle and stuff)


Do you're kids constantly tell each other that they need to have faith that you actually exist?



(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 360
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