RE: Poverty hard limits? (Full Version)

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Blonderfluff -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 9:10:13 AM)

It has nothing to do with being materialistic. It has to do with COMPATIBILITY.

I have found that those who claim moral high ground because they are poor, fall into the category of "Thou dost protest too much".

Just because there are those of us that would NOT be comfortable living at the poverty level, it does not mean we are materialistic or judgmental. ( you seem to be the one judging )

It means we have a standard of living that we are comfortable accepting.




Rasciallymisty -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 9:55:16 AM)

[sm=agree.gif][sm=goodpost.gif][sm=agree.gif]



BecomingV -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 10:28:18 AM)

Hard limits aren't criteria for friendship, are they? For instance, I would say diapers are a hard limit for me, but that has nothing to do with how I would relate to a friend whom enjoys or needs diapers.

Same with financial matters. I befriend those of varying economic statuses. However, if I decide to collar/marry a partner whom I plan to grow old with, I'm not going to choose anyone poverty-stricken.

But, this is individual and relative. If I had to choose between a partner whom loved diapers and a partner whom was impoverished, I'd go with poverty every time! (and I love and respect our diaper-loving friends) I get to honor my own preferences, needs and joys.

I also think that sex and age and cultural norms may influence the answer to the OP, too. Older people may care more about security ($) and men may still de-value women's role as provider.

After all is said and done, it does seem like cliches fit:

Water seeks its own level.
Birds of a feather, flock together.
The cream rises to the top. (for those whom believe the D must prove financial mastery in the world)

Like every other hard limit - seeking those whom can respect them and choosing partners whom fit the proverbial YOU, is what matters.



eulero83 -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 10:30:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blonderfluff

It has nothing to do with being materialistic. It has to do with COMPATIBILITY.

I have found that those who claim moral high ground because they are poor, fall into the category of "Thou dost protest too much".

Just because there are those of us that would NOT be comfortable living at the poverty level, it does not mean we are materialistic or judgmental. ( you seem to be the one judging )

It means we have a standard of living that we are comfortable accepting.




I'm not claiming higher moral ground because someone is poor, but I never turned down a someone because had less than me and I found out I was compatible with some of them!
So if your spouse loose his job and can't find another in this economy, or suddenly needs expensive medical cares, is it for you a good reason to divorce?



eulero83 -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 10:34:19 AM)

OP if that's your problem just date an undergraduate girl and introduce her to bdsm.



Greta75 -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 10:34:48 AM)

quote:

By the way from what you wrote I assume you do not have a fast food job, but from your profile it looks like you are naturally submissive, I can perfectly relate with that, just give other people the benefit of not being defined just by what they do for a living.

I never worked in a fast food restaurant, but I thoroughly enjoy waitressing and serving people. I've turned down promotion in my career, and opportunities to be top dog, because I do not want to lead. I wanted to assist a leader and follow, but I did not want to lead. People in my vanilla life never understood why I turn down great career opportunities. I thought about being the sole decision maker in that position and I dread it. I have no problems making decisions that impact my own life but I really hate to be position to make decisions that impact other people's life or a company's direction.




Greta75 -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 10:42:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
Bold ^^^ is mine.

That's something else - not submission. Dependence and fear are NOT submission.

This is kinda the argument about humane submission or unethical forced submission. But regardless method used to make a person submit, if they submit, it's submission.



BecomingV -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 10:45:33 AM)

Just wanted to throw this in the mix - Dommes can tell you that it is the wealthy/powerful man whom craves submission most. The fast food worker is more likely to crave a place to express dominance.

For that reason, I'd clarify that I care about wealth, not career. I do care that my partner take action in some area of passion (art, music, business, science, etc...). I prefer those whom do not work for others because I enjoy the freedom.

So, another hard limit for me would be a super-wealthy person whom is either selling their soul for the money or harming others for the money. This includes anyone whom hates their own job and isn't working actively on changing it.



Greta75 -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 10:49:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
So if your spouse loose his job and can't find another in this economy, or suddenly needs expensive medical cares, is it for you a good reason to divorce?

When your spouse suddenly can't work and need expensive medical care, this is beyond your control, you have already chosen this man to stick with him through good and bad times, and you commit to it.

But when you are still having the choice, you will unlikely choose someone who can't find a job and needs expensive medical care.



BecomingV -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 10:50:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
Bold ^^^ is mine.

That's something else - not submission. Dependence and fear are NOT submission.

This is kinda the argument about humane submission or unethical forced submission. But regardless method used to make a person submit, if they submit, it's submission.


I'm thinking more along the lines of BDSM submission versus vanilla kinds of submission (military, police, judiciary, etc...).

BDSM submission is an informed, conscious decision about ways of relating, in which BOTH people are winners.

Submission, as a vanilla term, has to do with competition - someone wins and someone doesn't.




Greta75 -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 10:53:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

Just wanted to throw this in the mix - Dommes can tell you that it is the wealthy/powerful man whom craves submission most. The fast food worker is more likely to crave a place to express dominance.

Wealthy and powerful man may enjoy the kink of submission but I believe many also enjoy topping from bottom. And they like their pro-dommes.

Fast food worker can't dom in real life, trying to dom in private life. I don't know. I guess I really associate that with a role play dominant. And not a dominant at the core. There is a vanilla man whom isn't into bdsm at all that I am crazily attracted to, because he is just so dominant at core, I feel the power and the energy of his will in my interactions with him. And it's no surprise where he is in his career also, his a natural leader who inspires people to want to follow him. That's what I seek.





BecomingV -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 11:17:50 AM)

Take corporate America, for instance. A high-powered guy, type-A personality, always on overdrive. He needs relief from the pressure, the deadlines and the responsibility. He needs to express other parts of his personality, those traits which do not serve work or financial goals. For this, he turns to Her or to Him.

The fast food worker, having experienced a day full of bowing to the will of others, and no longer being paid to do so after leaving work, then seeks to be treated with reverence, value and respect.

That's the general landscape of Doms and subs. But, I also think that factors such as growing up impoverished, may make a powerful man never want to let go into submission. This would feel like regression to a scary place, rather than relief and expression.



OriginalRebel -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 1:36:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: submissionholly

I like free spirits, but free spirits tend to be broke.


That's a very strange assumption.

Poor people tend to believe that class is defined by the amount of money you have. Middle classes or those who consider themselves middle class are likely to think money has something to do with it, but also believe that good education and the sort of work you do is equally important. Those who we consider 'at the top', perceive that taste, values, ideas, style, and behaviour are indispensable criteria of class, regardless of money or occupation or education.

A comment was made on this thread earlier about being 'upper middle class' or brought up in an 'upper middle class family' and therefore would find it hard to comfortably mix with people of a lower class status. I have to wonder, if a bastard son of a pedlar made good in business and earned something similar to those who consider themselves 'upper middle class', would the upper middle class person still feel uncomfortable in his company? or would he now make a possible suitor ?

Eddited to add this by Greta

Wealthy and powerful man may enjoy the kink of submission but I believe many also enjoy topping from bottom. And they like their pro-dommes.

Fast food worker can't dom in real life, trying to dom in private life. I don't know. I guess I really associate that with a role play dominant. And not a dominant at the core. There is a vanilla man whom isn't into bdsm at all that I am crazily attracted to, because he is just so dominant at core, I feel the power and the energy of his will in my interactions with him. And it's no surprise where he is in his career also, his a natural leader who inspires people to want to follow him. That's what I seek.


Funny thing is Greta, I see people like you as money chasers disguised under the camouflage of submission. The way you think is frankly ridiculous.



eulero83 -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 2:45:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
So if your spouse loose his job and can't find another in this economy, or suddenly needs expensive medical cares, is it for you a good reason to divorce?

When your spouse suddenly can't work and need expensive medical care, this is beyond your control, you have already chosen this man to stick with him through good and bad times, and you commit to it.

But when you are still having the choice, you will unlikely choose someone who can't find a job and needs expensive medical care.


Just let me understand you would stick with him because you commited but you would hate being with him or are there some other elements that would make you support a person you love?



BecomingV -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 3:25:05 PM)

FR - To question the commitment to a partner should their situation change is the same whether wealth, health or kink-ability is lost. People whom commit do just that... they commit.

Of those 3, loss of wealth is the easiest to avoid. Planning, sacrifice (saving) and determination to provide and to protect... these are dominant qualities.

I guess perspectives vary. IMO, Alpha males compete to win. It's all about what they can get, achieve and acquire. A Dominant is all about taking responsibility for the well-being of another.

When I read a "Dom" stating, "It's all about Me," I translate that to Alpha. Doms are a different breed.

I don't think a person need be wealthy to be an Alpha. A Dom, depending on various factors, may be wealthy, BUT, a Dom won't be impoverished. Even when fortunes are lost, comebacks are assured for Doms. Character dictates that a Dom keep his word, which is what accepting credit is all about... (promise to pay), so credit would be available and the sub would not know a loss had occurred. A Dom's commitment to accepting responsibility means that insurance or savings exist.

If a rich Dom became a poor Dom AND lost the ability to rebuild or reinvent that which had been lost, then I'd hope that Dom had prepared his sub to step in. Was her education and networking skillset achieved? Did he ensure that her decision-making muscles were practiced all along? (An Alpha would be too insecure and competitive to encourage "independence.") A Dom makes choices which support the safety and solidity of the relationship and is not confused by ego - like Alphas are.

I've seen more Alphas than Doms here. I think that like all things great, they are also rare.

Rather than ask how bossy (needy) a guy is, it's more clear to ask how responsible he lives. That includes money issues.



Culdron -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 3:32:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OriginalRebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: submissionholly

I like free spirits, but free spirits tend to be broke.


That's a very strange assumption.

Poor people tend to believe that class is defined by the amount of money you have. Middle classes or those who consider themselves middle class are likely to think money has something to do with it, but also believe that good education and the sort of work you do is equally important. Those who we consider 'at the top', perceive that taste, values, ideas, style, and behaviour are indispensable criteria of class, regardless of money or occupation or education.

A comment was made on this thread earlier about being 'upper middle class' or brought up in an 'upper middle class family' and therefore would find it hard to comfortably mix with people of a lower class status. I have to wonder, if a bastard son of a pedlar made good in business and earned something similar to those who consider themselves 'upper middle class', would the upper middle class person still feel uncomfortable in his company? or would he now make a possible suitor ?

Eddited to add this by Greta

Wealthy and powerful man may enjoy the kink of submission but I believe many also enjoy topping from bottom. And they like their pro-dommes.

Fast food worker can't dom in real life, trying to dom in private life. I don't know. I guess I really associate that with a role play dominant. And not a dominant at the core. There is a vanilla man whom isn't into bdsm at all that I am crazily attracted to, because he is just so dominant at core, I feel the power and the energy of his will in my interactions with him. And it's no surprise where he is in his career also, his a natural leader who inspires people to want to follow him. That's what I seek.


Funny thing is Greta, I see people like you as money chasers disguised under the camouflage of submission. The way you think is frankly ridiculous.



I was the one who commented on being raised middle class, and at the end of the day it's as much manners and values as it is dollars and cents. My exhusband, who made a fine living was raised poor. He joined the military, paid for college and took up hobbies and interests that helped him with how he conducted himself. My children's father was also raised poor, he putzed around got two college degrees and lot of debt. He has the grammar and manners of his origins. While I will say I will love him forever, you can't feed your kids on that. I said it before and I'll say it again, I don't care if you have $5000, $500, $50 or $5 left on the day before payday. As long as your bills are paid and you have food on the table, your in control of you finances enough to move on to other levels of compatibility. Because here's the thing, the more you make the more bills you have, so it doesn't matter rich or poor as much as stable.



Spiritedsub2 -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 4:25:23 PM)

This reminded me of another thread in which someone cited a statistic demonstrating that men are far more likely to leave their spouse if that spouse becomes seriously ill than women do. People will leave each other because of all sorts of change: illness, financial or employment loss, mental health breakdown, weight gain, and even achievement and success. I know for me, the degree of change I'd accept without leaving someone would be directly proportional to the degree I loved him.

I liked reading your comments about the distinction between alphas and dominants; that is a distinction I had not thought of. I agree, alphas seem to abound and Doms, not so much.



lilcracker -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 5:14:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

Just wanted to throw this in the mix - Dommes can tell you that it is the wealthy/powerful man whom craves submission most. The fast food worker is more likely to crave a place to express dominance.

Wealthy and powerful man may enjoy the kink of submission but I believe many also enjoy topping from bottom. And they like their pro-dommes.

Fast food worker can't dom in real life, trying to dom in private life. I don't know. I guess I really associate that with a role play dominant. And not a dominant at the core. There is a vanilla man whom isn't into bdsm at all that I am crazily attracted to, because he is just so dominant at core, I feel the power and the energy of his will in my interactions with him. And it's no surprise where he is in his career also, his a natural leader who inspires people to want to follow him. That's what I seek.




Just a FYI...my partner is a 'fast food worker' and he is one of the most dominant partners I have met in almost 25 yrs of being involved in D/s and it's not a 'bedroom' or 'role play' type of thing. Also I make more than he does....I am totally capable of taking care of myself...and I am in no way relying on his income. I supported myself before him and could easily do it again. Before me he was able to support himself as well.

Also my partner was vanilla when I met him....and he had that dominant core. He IS on the management team where he works (again fast food) and I have often said...I would NEVER want to work under him because I'd probably be in tears before the end of the day.



pissdoll -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 6:36:24 PM)

i look at this topic as an issue of drive and determination. what do you DO with what you HAVE?

i know men who have advanced degrees that are lazy and not working up to potential.

i once dated a former drug addict with a high school diploma who was working in commercial real estate. he makes 500k-750k per year, depending on the market.

i have a good friend with a GED who owns a plumbing business and makes about 150k.

And another good friend of mine with a Master's in Chemistry is teaching high school science in one of the crappiest areas of Los Angeles, inspiring kids who have been given up on that just because they are poor minorities doesn't mean they can't be the brilliant minds of their generation. i think he makes about 60k. but what he GIVES is priceless.

so for the minimum wage worker, i would want to know the whats, the whys and the hows.
why are you there? what are your goals? how are you going to make those goals happen?

if he's working 25 hours a week at an entry level position and has no further ambition than where he is, he would never even be on my radar.
if he's working 25 hours a week because he's also working on a degree with a plan to better himself, then i would take notice.
if he's working full time in fast food but has entered a management fast track training program and in two years will be a district manager supervising 5 high volume stores, then he's a man definitely worth "investing" in.




Greta75 -> RE: Poverty hard limits? (5/9/2014 11:23:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OriginalRebel
Funny thing is Greta, I see people like you as money chasers disguised under the camouflage of submission. The way you think is frankly ridiculous.

You want to see money as a negative thing, and I notice people who come from countries with welfare often think this way, because they have safety nets.
But when you live in a country where you are 100% on your own with no safety nets if you can't make enough to survive. Money is very important. Without money, there is no medical care, no roof, no clothes, no food. It's as simple as that. Money keeps me alive. Without money, I can't feed myself, I will be dead. There are no food stamps, coupons, and the government isn't gonna feed me.



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