RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 5:38:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I can't be bothered to get into an argument about whether or not it's somehow better in the USA because everyone has this freedom to kill and I sure as *hell* have no interest in entertaining the bleating and whining from certain Americans here about how we Europeans look down on them...

..."but I'm not gonna hesitate to use this tragedy to make sure Americans understand how much I think they suck."

Up yours.

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"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 6:54:15 PM

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Judging by the outcome the punk just wasn't cut out for a life of crime. Perhaps the little shit should have considered a less criminal way to spend his evening.

This was a crime that appears to have been planned in advance by several wannabe criminals. The criminal activity is popular enough that they even have a name for it. The punks that were fortunate enough to not get shot should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for the initial crime. If an of them are over 18 theyshould be prosecuted for the death of their co-conspirator as well.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

-SD-

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To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 7:13:33 PM

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Would this thread have been better called: Senseless Apologists for Gun Violence enable Gun Violence?

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 7:54:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

If I was that kids dad, I might seriously be thinking of going out there myself round about now.

Because God forbid you should have taught him it is wrong to steal?

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 8:05:48 PM

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But it's okay to kill I guess.............sorry, my brain is a bit muddled today and I didn't realise

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 8:05:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave
The punks that were fortunate enough to not get shot should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for the initial crime. If an of them are over 18 theyshould be prosecuted for the death of their co-conspirator as well.

-SD-

Felony murder? That one might be tough. I'm not up to speed on Wyoming law, but manslaughter would seem the better charge, in theory - they were being stupid, and got someone even stupider killed.

I'm thinking it was a language barrier thing. If the kid had spoken better American, he'd have understood that metal clacking noise meant, "run like hell, right fucking now!"

Darwin Award.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 5/8/2014 8:06:44 PM >

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 8:11:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoneStaBlues

That exchange student who broke into someone's home could have as easily been a doped up thief who would have killed anyone without any remorse.

Yes he could have. But shooting into a dark garage is irresponsible no matter how you spin it and I hope they lock him up.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 8:13:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

But it's okay to kill I guess.............sorry, my brain is a bit muddled today and I didn't realise

The first stupid choice made in the situation was the kid going into another person's premises with criminal intent. I realize it may not be what some are accustomed to, but yeah, that is a damn good way to get yourself shot in the US of A.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 8:14:21 PM

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Gods peon, you give your age away talking about prefabs *smile*..............I remember the brewery well and I remember those beautiful horses too. I also worked in the City for a while............in Leadenhall Market, next to the Lamb (The pub used in the first Harry Potter movie).
It (The East End) was a hard and violent district but I honestly don't remember too many guns being used there, even on the most violent of nights (and there were plenty). Even knives and razors weren't all that common. Maybe we were just a bunch of woosies back then ?

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 8:24:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Yes he could have. But shooting into a dark garage is irresponsible no matter how you spin it and I hope they lock him up.

The drug aspect might see him charged, Boi, and there might even be some State Dept. pressure to give the Germans a sympathy nuzzle, but the lawful resident gets pretty broad legal latitude on picking his tactics.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 8:49:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Yes he could have. But shooting into a dark garage is irresponsible no matter how you spin it and I hope they lock him up.

Bullshit.

I think you'll find that the vast majority of homeowners have a pretty good idea of who and what should be in their garages. Just about everyone I know can give extremely detailed instructions on where most things in their garage are. Furthemore shooting into a garage is pretty safe for your neighbors. The odds of collateral damage to innocent people is pretty well minimalized when you shoot into an enclosed space. Shooting out of a garage on the other hand would be irresponsible.

-SD-

_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 8:57:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

It's a different world, Igor. It really is. People over here in Europe do silly things occasionally, like they probably do everywhere. But we older adults don't feel the need to inspire terror in them for being berks that they are because berks here so rarely get killed for being berks. That's *your* world, Igor. I can't be bothered to get into an argument about whether or not it's somehow better in the USA because everyone has this freedom to kill and I sure as *hell* have no interest in entertaining the bleating and whining from certain Americans here about how we Europeans look down on them. All I can say is that I want no part of that sort of world, ever, because I find it disgusting.

Peon.. here in the USA, by the time young people reach the age of 23, 30% have already been convicted of a crime.. They take their law & order very seriously here.. I find that a startling stat, since once young people have that criminal record due to being a dumb kid or doing drugs, it means they are shut out in many respects of society and most likely will be doomed to low income jobs the rest of their lives.. What exactly does that mean for this country's economic health in the decades ahead?

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vfluc.txt

Blacks - that comprise 11% of the population commit 46% of the murders, 35% of rapists. 40$ of felony assaults.

Overall blacks comprised 55% of violent felons.

(in reply to tj444)

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 9:33:39 PM

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Yes, it was foolish to go into a garage to take something but there is no question in my mind that the kid is dead because of the culture of guns in America and it's shoot first and ask questions later mentality. I guess some of us haven't evolved passed that yet.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 9:38:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

There you go, FD. LoneStaBlues has provided a neat picture of the wavelength that people are on out there. The context of threat and danger that they're used to just isn't part of our experience here in Western Europe. Myself, if I were that kid's dad, I wouldn't have let my son go out there in the first place, frankly.

If I were that kid's dad I'd be wishing I had taken more time to teach my son that going, uninvited, into someone's home and committing a criminal act can have dire and unexpected consequences. BOTH people were stupid. Now, one is dead, the other facing charges. The kid is every bit as responsible as the guy that pulled the trigger. But in reading the responses so far it would seem that the anti-gun people want to ignore that fact. Just remember, the kid wouldn't be dead if he had not been breaking the law in the first place.

It's a different world, Igor. It really is. People over here in Europe do silly things occasionally, like they probably do everywhere. But we older adults don't feel the need to inspire terror in them for being berks that they are because berks here so rarely get killed for being berks. That's *your* world, Igor. I can't be bothered to get into an argument about whether or not it's somehow better in the USA because everyone has this freedom to kill and I sure as *hell* have no interest in entertaining the bleating and whining from certain Americans here about how we Europeans look down on them. All I can say is that I want no part of that sort of world, ever, because I find it disgusting.

So you see illegally going into someones home and committing a crime as a "silly thing"? And where do you get this "inspire terror" bullshit? Teaching our kids to respect other people's property has NOTHING to do with inspiring terror. And this "freedom to kill" is also total bullshit. I didn't defend the actions of the home owner, did I? I said BOTH people were at fault...something that you want to totally ignore in your quest to vilify those evil, gun toting Americans.

You "can't be bothered" to get into an argument...? LOL...You were right here in the middle of this thread, well before I was. You seem to think it's okay for you to spout your extremely biased point of view, but want to close your ears when someone has something to say that you don't like.

As far as what I actually said, can you deny it? Can you deny that the kid was breaking the law? Can you deny that he would still be alive if he had been behaving himself instead of committing crimes? If you can't deny it, then get down off your fucking high horse and admit that he is at least partially responsible for his own death.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 9:46:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Teenagers call it garage hopping. The goal was to sneak into an open garage, steal some beer or other items and slip away into the night. It was dumb and clearly illegal. It was not supposed to be deadly.

Inside the house, motion sensors alerted Markus Kaarma, 29, to an intruder’s presence.....

....he grabbed a shotgun from the dining room and rushed outside......

....He aimed into the garage and, according to court documents, fired four blasts into the dark.....

Mr. Dede’s (a 17-year-old exchange student from Germany named Diren Dede ) body crumpled to the floor.

---------

I can only shake my head in dismay......

It wasn't an open garage door inviting entry, it was only partially open, a not uncommon practice for ventilation, and likely would have been closed when the homeowner went to bed. Also omitted, the man and his family were already on edge from two recent burglaries at their home. In addition to his wife, there was a 10-month old child in the house. The couple had contacted police previously, but received little assistance.

“Markus felt a high level of fear and anxiety for himself and his family due to the burglaries and lack of response from law enforcement,” he [Kaarma's attorney] said... Ryan said they watched in fear and terror” as the intruder entered the garage and headed toward the kitchen door. Kaarma, Ryan wrote, believed the intruder posed “an imminent threat” to himself and his family. ~Missoulian

Not knowing if the intruder was armed, and not wanting to risk him gaining entry to the house, Kaarma went outside while his wife called 911. After the shooting, Kaarma's wife administered "lifesaving procedures" and comforted the shot man. A second intruder was not injured, and fled the scene. My guess would be that he wasn't the one who approached the door into the house.

Prosecutors are making shit up wholesale. Presumably relying on their crystal balls, they're claiming that Kaarma baited the burglars by leaving the door open and placing a purse inside.

Ryan staunchly refutes that claim. “The family’s garage door was open for ventilation because Markus and Janelle smoke cigarettes in the garage and had done so minutes before this tragedy,” Ryan wrote. The purse, Ryan said, wasn’t in plain view, but was in the back of the garage.

Oh yeah, and they suspect Kaarma may have been smoking pot. Gawd momma, say it ain't so!

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/8/2014 10:06:37 PM >

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 9:47:34 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

That's one way to empty the jails and save the economy..................Kill everybody who commits a crime. Not trials; no reports to file.
Peon, I was brought up in a really nice, quiet area where there was no crime or violence..............I am sure you know the Whitechapel, Aldgate, Bethnal Green areas of London ??? I served in a rather noisy area of the military and since coming to Australia, have never picked up a weapon except to shoot (non-human) vermin. I see a gun as a beautifully made piece of machinery but like you, I am baffled by the idea that simply owning one gives you the right to take a life. Even coming from my background, that seems a little weird, to say the least. Fucked up WOULD be a much better way of putting it.

Whitechaple, home of Jack

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 10:04:15 PM

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No, Whitechapel is where Jack roamed.............He lived somewhere in the West End or possibly Mayfair it is rumoured.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 10:12:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

As far as what I actually said, can you deny it? Can you deny that the kid was breaking the law? Can you deny that he would still be alive if he had been behaving himself instead of committing crimes? If you can't deny it, then get down off your fucking high horse and admit that he is at least partially responsible for his own death.

No "partially" about it.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to igor2003)

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 10:26:02 PM

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What I find amazing from this whole thing is because the man used a gun to defend his home and family he is a bad man. If he waved around a katana like a madman and decapitated the kid there wouldn't be this big media shitstorm. You wouldn't see people wantig the registration of all bladed weapons. If the kid was doped up on meth there wouldn't be much of a shitstorm either.
<br>
Personally, it doesn't matter to me what he had in his garage. Would a Lamborghini count as bait? A BDSM dungeon full of expensive restraints and gear? Woodworking tools that a carpenter might use? Value is relative. One man's trash is another man's treasure. You just baited me into breaking into your house with fancy curtains or what I percieve to be a rare and endangered species of houseplant on the windowsill.
<br>
Regardless: http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/a/Montana-Gun-Laws.htm
<br>
Castle doctrine
45-3-103. Use of force in defense of occupied structure. (1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure.
(2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if:

(a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or

(b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure.
<br>
Not attacking your views Kirata, merely supporting them in my own way since I agree with what you've posted 100%.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 10:30:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

If I was that kids dad, I might seriously be thinking of going out there myself round about now.

Because God forbid you should have taught him it is wrong to steal?

I'm almost certain that the dead boy's parent's will have taught him that it is wrong to steal, but young people do some pretty fucking stupid things sometimes.

I'm not really sure that they should be executed without any kind of trial or hearing when they do though.

But hey.

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