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RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to death"?


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RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 4:03:04 PM   
Musicmystery


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Seems one way or the other, the guys holding the guns just aren't very good at it.

If they can't shoot to wound, they're not very skilled, and if they're shooting to kill, they're not getting the job done.

Seems like they're just shooting, to listen to you guys! Total Dick Cheney bird hunt approach.



Maybe we just need mandatory/better firearms training.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 4:08:31 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Someone (they oppose the use of firearms for self defense) in another thread argues that if self defense allows you to shoot and kill someone it allows you to (when unarmed) to continue beating a helpless attacker until the are dead. Does anyone else see hypocrisy in this.

You are a fucking liar.
I do not oppose using a weapon in defense of myself or others. I just find most of the cases that make the news to be crap. Shooting old men wandering around in the dark is not self defense.

But when it comes right down to it you insist on giving them first shot.
No I am not you are just too stupid to understand the ramifications of your "ideas"

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 4:09:08 PM   
igor2003


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


Oh hell an infected paper cut can kill.

That's not the point. But you've illustrated mine--the choice is to kill. I have to disagree with you on this. The "choice" is to stop someone from harming and possibly killing you or someone you are protecting. The death of the person you are shooting at is a very possible outcome, but NOT necessarily "the choice".

That it's not possible to incapacitate an attacker by wounding them is nonsense. Like saying you can't stop someone with a beating unless you kill them. It's a choice. Yes, it IS possible. But trying to hit a moving arm or leg is considerably more difficult than hitting center mass. Remember, the reason you start shooting anyway (or should be the reason) is to prevent death or serious bodily harm to yourself or someone you are protecting. Every time you try to shoot an arm or leg, and miss, is one more opportunity for that person you are shooting at to harm you...and if they have a gun, I'd be willing to bet that they aren't shooting to simply incapacitate.

And in the "right" circumstances, maybe even a good choice, or at least an understandable one made in a difficult situation. But a choice.



_____________________________

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(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 4:11:49 PM   
thompsonx


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And yet the vast majority of gunshot victims survive.

I can validate that.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 4:14:00 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Someone (they oppose the use of firearms for self defense) in another thread argues that if self defense allows you to shoot and kill someone it allows you to (when unarmed) to continue beating a helpless attacker until the are dead. Does anyone else see hypocrisy in this.

You are a fucking liar.
I do not oppose using a weapon in defense of myself or others. I just find most of the cases that make the news to be crap. Shooting old men wandering around in the dark is not self defense.

Like always you resort to profanity and insults when wrong let me remind you of something
You did not say he should have been disarmed.
You did not say he should have been subdued.
You did not say he should have been disabled.
You specifically said he should have been beaten to death.
Clearly you don't understand that most often people don't die from a gunshot wound.
I support shooting an attacker, not standing over him and firing into his body.


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 4:14:20 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: BamaD

But when it comes right down to it you insist on giving them first shot.

Would you have any validation for this idiotic, ignorant,unsubstantiated opinion? Where has anyone ,besides you ,spoken about giving the "boogy man" the first shot?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 4:16:06 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Someone (they oppose the use of firearms for self defense) in another thread argues that if self defense allows you to shoot and kill someone it allows you to (when unarmed) to continue beating a helpless attacker until the are dead. Does anyone else see hypocrisy in this.

You are a fucking liar.
I do not oppose using a weapon in defense of myself or others. I just find most of the cases that make the news to be crap. Shooting old men wandering around in the dark is not self defense.

You just love to loose don't you, repeatedly bringing back a case where the cops the DA and even the
widow said it was tragic but justified.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 4:28:16 PM   
thompsonx


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Yes, it IS possible. But trying to hit a moving arm or leg is considerably more difficult than hitting center mass.


Why is this so? Is this so because that is the only way this bloodthirsty sceene plays out?It seems that the sceene is always the same "one barely has time to get their roscoe out and in haste and pannic puts five out of five inthe center of body mass. That is the fucking movies. Situations do not happen like that in real life.


Remember, the reason you start shooting anyway (or should be the reason) is to prevent death or serious bodily harm to yourself or someone you are protecting. Every time you try to shoot an arm or leg, and miss,



The person is within 10 feet of you and you cannot hit them in the foot but you can hit "center of mass"???why the fuck do you have a gun???
If one has a gun for self defense then it would make sense that one would practice and be able to hit what one aims at. Otherwise we just have some chairborn ranger dreaming of rambo.




is one more opportunity for that person you are shooting at to harm you


Only if you do not know how to shoot. If you do not know how to shoot why do you have a gun?


...and if they have a gun, I'd be willing to bet that they aren't shooting to simply incapacitate.


Why are their motives relevant?


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/21/2014 4:35:06 PM >

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 4:32:23 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: BamaD


You just love to loose don't you, repeatedly bringing back a case where the cops the DA and even the
widow said it was tragic but justified.


Of course the fact that the shooter was politically connected had nothing to do with it.
I don't recall the widow saying she thought it was a justified shooting...do you have a link to that?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 4:52:05 PM   
surelyujest71


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I just read this one page (p4) but I think I've got the gist of where the conversation started, and is now. First: No, it's not OK to beat someone to death, not even in self defense. If you have the ability to beat them that badly, then you can easily stop short of death. The question becomes "Can you control yourself in the heat of passion well enough to keep from killing a weaker opponent." A fight for your life is absolutely one in which every ounce of a person's passion will be brought up out of the depths, after all. Once you've managed to save your own life by incapacitating your attacker, you can either take control of yourself, or be nothing more than an animal as you continue beating the helpless creature before you into his grave. Personally, I believe that we're all capable of being more than animals - at that moment when you realize that your attacker has submitted, and is incapable of harming you is when you make your own choice - to be that feral animal, or to be a true Man, driven by your intellect rather than your passions. If you want to be sure that your attacker is never capable of repeating the incident, call the police. If he's attacked you with intent to kill, then you can be fairly certain that he's done other violent deeds in the past that will help to prove your story to the police.

For those who wish to bring a gun to this discussion, I have no disagreement. If I find myself attacked by someone who wishes to injure or kill me, I absolutely hope to be armed, and to be able to put a bullet into him. I won't fire the weapon with intent to kill, but if the bullet does fatal damage, I won't let that ruin my life - the choice to attack was his, and therefor he also chose to accept the consequences of that attack. I'd prefer that he survive the bullet and spend quite some time in prison, but what happens in the heat of the moment, and what I'm sure would be a semi-random aim (I've never had to fire a weapon at an attacking person, before), would be up to, shall we say, a higher power. If the first bullet kills, then I'll be sorry he died, but not so sorry as I'd be if he'd killed or seriously wounded me. If the first bullet doesn't kill, then he'll probably be on the ground, and I'd still be standing there ready to stop him from getting up. Firing a second bullet at an injured man on the ground would just be murder - just as it would be for someone who chooses to let the feral beast take over and take a man's life.

I'm sure someone out there will try saying "well, what if....." There are plenty of "what ifs" in life. It's how we choose to respond to them that differentiates us from the feral beasts. "What if the guy is hopped up on some crazy drugs and keeps coming?" At least he's slowed down, and you can shoot again, and hope you don't kill him... knowing that if you do, it was still self defense.

The moment your actions turn from self-defense and become an attack, you have already won. After that, it's a choice between tying them up for the police, and committing murder yourself.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 4:56:13 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
You are a fucking liar.
I do not oppose using a weapon in defense of myself or others. I just find most of the cases that make the news to be crap. Shooting old men wandering around in the dark is not self defense.


It's OK, Ken. Only a demented looney would believe you'd made the argument just as it was presented in the OP. Apparently most people here believe likewise.

Really what does the phrase
" they should have beaten him to death"
mean to you?
post 128 in the original thread.
It is the sort of thing only a demented loony would say

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 5:11:46 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Someone (they oppose the use of firearms for self defense) in another thread argues that if self defense allows you to shoot and kill someone it allows you to (when unarmed) to continue beating a helpless attacker until the are dead. Does anyone else see hypocrisy in this.

You are a fucking liar.
I do not oppose using a weapon in defense of myself or others. I just find most of the cases that make the news to be crap. Shooting old men wandering around in the dark is not self defense.

Did I say you were?
I guess the shoe fit so well you had to claim it.


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 5:16:51 PM   
surelyujest71


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The panicked idiot in the movies who pumps out all five of his shots is the guy who doesn't really know how to use his weapon properly - he's just a jerk who managed to get hold of a gun, and when the dangerous situation occurs, all he knows how to do is go "bang bang." If you have even a modicum of weapons training, you don't fire off all five shots straight out of the holster - one should be enough. Even if it misses, there are 4 more - and the attacker knows there are more shots, too. If you were the attacker, would you continue with the attack, or get the hell out of there? One way leads to safety - for both. The other way leads to possible death, and definite serious injury, for the attacker. Simply getting that first shot off, even if it's into the floor, will still shock the attacker into stillness for just a second, allowing the gun to be aimed more accurately - and looking down the wrong end of a loaded weapon means, again, the attacker will either try to get away, or get himself seriously injured or dead.

Not all gunshot wounds end in death. Most don't. Some people have even taken gunshots to the head, and survived quite well - the skull is one tough, thick chunk of bone armor, after all. Obviously most straight shots to the head do end in death, but there's a reason people are taught to shoot for center of mass, if they have any training at all: Center of mass doesn't move very much, compared to the flailing of arms, legs, and yes, even head. The center of mass is also less likely to result in a fast bleed-out. If you shoot someone in the leg - say the thigh - you stand a much higher chance of destroying the artery so badly that the injury bleeds out in seconds. A hit in the lung incapacitates, and requires attention within a short window of time. A shot to the abdomen stands a good chance of damaging some portion of the intestinal tract or another organ, but doesn't always; either way, the injury will require medical attention within the hour, most times. Other shots to "center of mass" may hit the shoulder, etc, possibly injuring badly enough to cause a person to bleed out, or not. The heart itself is somewhat above center of mass, and not a very big target - if hit, then chances are that it'll be a fatal wound. Even so: this is happening to the attacker, who we assume is trying to kill us.

Warning shots are intended to miss. Defensive shots are intended to hit, and you go for the big target, not the small ones. Pistols are also much less accurate than rifles - close range isn't a lot of help, as the target can pass across your field of vision in 1/16 of the time as he can at 20 or 30 feet, and most small firearms have too short of a barrel - we're talking maybe 1 inch, or even less, for a firearm that will fit into a purse or back pocket, compared to the 2 or 3 feet of rifled barrel on a rifle. That longer barrel can allow the person firing to hit a small target at 200 yards, whereas with a pistol it becomes difficult to hit the same stationary target at 20 feet.

You have to make your choice: will you be the victim, or the survivor? Victims are either dead, or end up in a state of mind that's the next best thing to it. Survivors are either well-scarred, or were able to stop the attacker. The ideal is to stop the attacker without killing him, but the primary goal is to save yourself, and anyone else in his path.

If it's some random guy who breaks into my house in the middle of the night? That's an attack, in and of itself, and I have the right to fill his hide full of buckshot - usually non-fatal, but absolutely stops anyone from trying anything more. I choose not to be a victim.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 6:11:15 PM   
thompsonx


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the choice to attack was his, and therefor he also chose to accept the consequences of that attack.

This is not necessarily true.We only know that we percieve danger.
One day(when I lived in the city) I was taking a shit when I heard a noise in my kitchen. I am the only one who lives here so I figured it may be the neighbors cat but the noise continued and no longer sounded like a cat but a human. I wiped my ass and pick up a pistol on my way through the bedroom to the kitchen. There, about 5' away stood a 6'2" 200#+ naked man with his hair all messed up and his eyes kinda "wild looking" and one of my butcher knives in his hand.....what to do what to do???
After staring at each other for about ten seconds he dropped the knife spun around and ran out the back door, through the back yard and hopped the fence that seperated my property from a church parking lot. I put my gun away and then went outside and looked over the fence. As the naked guy was wandering in the parking lot a city police man pulled up and got a blanket out of his trunk and motioned the guy to him, wrapped him up and put him in the prowler.
Turns out he is an inmate at a state mental facility a few miles away and he had wandered away and the cops had been out looking for him.
If I believed that I lived in a "dangrous" environment that man could well have been dead...I don't and he is not.

(in reply to surelyujest71)
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RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 6:45:00 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
You are a fucking liar.
I do not oppose using a weapon in defense of myself or others. I just find most of the cases that make the news to be crap. Shooting old men wandering around in the dark is not self defense.


It's OK, Ken. Only a demented looney would believe you'd made the argument just as it was presented in the OP. Apparently most people here believe likewise.

Really what does the phrase
" they should have beaten him to death"
mean to you?
post 128 in the original thread.
It is the sort of thing only a demented loony would say


I did ask you earlier to cite the post, Bama. I could make no sense of your OP - that was the reason why.

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RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 7:06:22 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Seems one way or the other, the guys holding the guns just aren't very good at it.

If they can't shoot to wound, they're not very skilled, and if they're shooting to kill, they're not getting the job done.

Seems like they're just shooting, to listen to you guys! Total Dick Cheney bird hunt approach.



Maybe we just need mandatory/better firearms training.



I realize you are just throwing rocks, Muse, but do you have to pretend to be so stupid when you do it?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 7:12:40 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

But that's just it, Heretic, even the "...cleanest and most justifiable use of deadly force..." is not reviewed often to see if the matter was 'self defense' or not. Its rare to find a court case in which the self defense argument is used, and it was clean and justified.



Why don't you try to get some elementary foundation in the justice system of the United States, and come back when you don't need water wings, Joether? A review of the legalities can be completed without a case ever getting near a jury, such as when a DA's office decides not to file charges in the first place.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 7:14:28 PM   
Krondool1


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Frankly in Answer to "does it give you the right to beat them to death" The simple answer is yes. If I'm in fear for my life, I'm not going to play patty-cake with the aggressor, I'm going to attempt to drive the bridge of his nose into his brain. A single-shot, bare-handed can be lethal if trained, or just lucky for that matter.

Shooting to wound makes no sense, especially in today's legal system. Now you are obligated (in many states) to help pay for his medical fees, and spend months of your life in lengthy and expensive court battles. If someone is legitimately threatening me or mine harm, I'm not going to try playing Blazing Saddles and shoot the weapon from his hand. If armed or not, my initial response would be put this attacker down, put him down hard and for good, then assess any further threat. Call it military training if you'd like, it's simple common sense.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 7:15:13 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Someone (they oppose the use of firearms for self defense) in another thread argues that if self defense allows you to shoot and kill someone it allows you to (when unarmed) to continue beating a helpless attacker until the are dead. Does anyone else see hypocrisy in this.

You are a fucking liar.
I do not oppose using a weapon in defense of myself or others. I just find most of the cases that make the news to be crap. Shooting old men wandering around in the dark is not self defense.

But when it comes right down to it you insist on giving them first shot.
No I am not you are just too stupid to understand the ramifications of your "ideas"

No, you fucking liar. The law says that you can't act until you have to. Just because someone makes you nervous or you think they might be a danger to you, you can't attack them legally. they have to be an actual threat.

For instance, If a crazy old bastard starts yelling at yell to stop pissing in his woods you can't do anything. However if he leaves and comes back waving a gun around and then shoots at you, you are then free to kill him to keep him from killing you.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/21/2014 7:16:55 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Someone (they oppose the use of firearms for self defense) in another thread argues that if self defense allows you to shoot and kill someone it allows you to (when unarmed) to continue beating a helpless attacker until the are dead. Does anyone else see hypocrisy in this.

You are a fucking liar.
I do not oppose using a weapon in defense of myself or others. I just find most of the cases that make the news to be crap. Shooting old men wandering around in the dark is not self defense.

Like always you resort to profanity and insults when wrong let me remind you of something
You did not say he should have been disarmed.
You did not say he should have been subdued.
You did not say he should have been disabled.
You specifically said he should have been beaten to death.
Clearly you don't understand that most often people don't die from a gunshot wound.
I support shooting an attacker, not standing over him and firing into his body.


You are a fool if you ever shoot and do not intend to kill.

Check with your local police and see if discharging a firearm at someone is ever considered anything but an attempt to kill.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 80
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