RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to death"?

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RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 12:47:35 AM

Posts: 48
Joined: 4/28/2007
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DomKen: For instance, If a crazy old bastard starts yelling at yell to stop pissing in his woods you can't do anything. However if he leaves and comes back waving a gun around and then shoots at you, you are then free to kill him to keep him from killing you.

If you're pissing in his woods, then you're trespassing, you realize. If you shoot him, even if he is brandishing a shotgun at you, you'll still end up with a murder rap. Now, if you're pissing in your own woods, and he insanely comes onto your property saying such things and brandishing a shotgun, you're well within your rights to defend yourself - this time he's the one breaking the law by trespassing, and you're the one defending yourself. Go into his woods to piss, and all he sees is a madman pissing on his property.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 1:05:57 AM

Posts: 48
Joined: 4/28/2007
Status: offline

[/quote]
You seem to have a distorted view of the damage a bullet can do to a body. Do you know what hydrostatic shock is?
[/quote]

*Waves his hand around "I do! I do!"*

Hydrostatic shock is, in simplest terms and most easily visualized, a wave. Such as, when you tap the surface of water in a bucket, the water will ripple out from that central point. If you drag your fingertip across the surface of the water, the ripples move out from the fingertip in a wave. Now, if you want to visualize what hydrostatic shock can do, take a small firework, such as a small cheapo bottle rocket, and let it shoot down into the water. After it fizzles for a bit, it will explode. As the pressure wave from that tiny little explosion moves outward, it'll cause the surface water to splash, a bit, and also the bucket will jump off of the ground. If it's a plastic bucket, you might have a hole in the bottom. If it's one of those old-style galvanized buckets, it will also jump off of the ground, the bottom may well be slightly convex in the downward direction, and there's every possibility that the bucket will have popped one or more of it's seams - I've seen it happen. Hydrostatic shock inside the human body can also cause damage, although much of it will be absorbed by muscle and organs as the bullet travels through, but it can still cause anything from mild to serious damage of it's own - for example, a bullet passes very near to the spine, but doesn't actually damage the vertebra, even so, the victim is paralyzed, perhaps for the long term, or perhaps just for a few hours or days. The hydrostatic shock caused by the bullet's extreme speed was passed via liquid and even bone into the spinal nerves, with the result of either stunning them, or damaging, or destroying them.

Hydrostatic shock is also why some hillbillies like to toss dynamite into ponds and lakes - the pressure wave stuns the fish, causing them to float up to the surface. I'm sure the stupidity of fishing in this manner is apparent to all here.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 1:17:31 AM

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

What a surprise ! People 'discussing' whether shooting to kill is right or not start actually daring to be rude to each other. Who'd have ever thought?

There's a simple way of dealing with this. Shooting doesn't start until talking has ceased. So whatever the circumstances walk away while you still can. That way you will live long enough to be able to chat on the Internet about whether shooting to kill is right or wrong with other frustrated soi-disant Dirty Harrys to your hearts content.

Simple really.

_____________________________

(in reply to surelyujest71)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 6:17:59 AM

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: surelyujest71

DomKen: For instance, If a crazy old bastard starts yelling at yell to stop pissing in his woods you can't do anything. However if he leaves and comes back waving a gun around and then shoots at you, you are then free to kill him to keep him from killing you.

If you're pissing in his woods, then you're trespassing, you realize. If you shoot him, even if he is brandishing a shotgun at you, you'll still end up with a murder rap.

You really have got to be kidding. You really think you can't defend yourself if someone is shooting at you if all you were doing is simple trespass?

(in reply to surelyujest71)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 7:06:59 AM

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Joined: 3/14/2005
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That's not at all what that post says.

It gets **SSSSOOOO** tiring when post after post in these threads is just bullshit the person replying makes up.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 8:16:07 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: surelyujest71

DomKen: For instance, If a crazy old bastard starts yelling at yell to stop pissing in his woods you can't do anything. However if he leaves and comes back waving a gun around and then shoots at you, you are then free to kill him to keep him from killing you.

If you're pissing in his woods, then you're trespassing, you realize. If you shoot him, even if he is brandishing a shotgun at you, you'll still end up with a murder rap.
You really have got to be kidding. You really think you can't defend yourself if someone is shooting at you if all you were doing is simple trespass?

And refusing to leave his property.
Besides he has only fired warning shots so you can't be sure he intends to harm you so by the rules you have "explained" dozens of time you don't have the right to do anything.
Personally I would get off his property.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 8:35:41 AM

Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

90,000 rounds of ammo.

you are either a really fucking bad shot or you are planning on killing or wounding tens of thousands of people/animals

(in reply to deathtothepixies)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 8:59:12 AM

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Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

ORIGINAL: Krondool1

Frankly in Answer to "does it give you the right to beat them to death" The simple answer is yes.

Someone else who will be receiving free room and board at the states expense.

If I'm in fear for my life

Keep spouting that "fear of my life" shit like that "good ol boy" from missouri and you could be his cellmate.

I'm not going to play patty-cake with the aggressor, I'm going to attempt to drive the bridge of his nose into his brain.

This only works in the brains of those who think kung fu movies are a substitute for an anatomy class.

A single-shot, bare-handed can be lethal if trained, or just lucky for that matter.

Really???just which single-shot bare-handed blow is lethal someplace besides a rambo movie.

Shooting to wound makes no sense, especially in today's legal system. Now you are obligated (in many states) to help pay for his medical fees,

Which states require this?

and spend months of your life in lengthy and expensive court battles.

Really???would you have any validation for this opinion?

If someone is legitimately threatening me or mine harm, I'm not going to try playing Blazing Saddles and shoot the weapon from his hand. If armed or not, my initial response would be put this attacker down, put him down hard and for good, then assess any further threat. Call it military training if you'd like,

Really???Which fucking military taught you that?

it's simple common sense.

The problem with common sense is that it is not all that common.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/22/2014 9:05:23 AM >

(in reply to Krondool1)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 9:02:52 AM

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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ORIGINAL: DomKen

You are a fool if you ever shoot and do not intend to kill.

That would be your ignorant,simple minded,peurile opinion.

Check with your local police and see if discharging a firearm at someone is ever considered anything but an attempt to kill.

What exactly does that prove?

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 9:24:29 AM

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: surelyujest71

DomKen: For instance, If a crazy old bastard starts yelling at yell to stop pissing in his woods you can't do anything. However if he leaves and comes back waving a gun around and then shoots at you, you are then free to kill him to keep him from killing you.

If you're pissing in his woods, then you're trespassing, you realize. If you shoot him, even if he is brandishing a shotgun at you, you'll still end up with a murder rap.
You really have got to be kidding. You really think you can't defend yourself if someone is shooting at you if all you were doing is simple trespass?

And refusing to leave his property.
Besides he has only fired warning shots so you can't be sure he intends to harm you so by the rules you have "explained" dozens of time you don't have the right to do anything.
Personally I would get off his property.

The person being shot at has no idea if a "warning shot" wasn't just a poorly aimed head shot. That is one of the reasons the whole concept of such is no longer well thought of by serious gun people. If you point a gun at someone it says I intend to kill you. Discharging that gun is makes that intent crystal clear.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 9:31:41 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: surelyujest71

DomKen: For instance, If a crazy old bastard starts yelling at yell to stop pissing in his woods you can't do anything. However if he leaves and comes back waving a gun around and then shoots at you, you are then free to kill him to keep him from killing you.

If you're pissing in his woods, then you're trespassing, you realize. If you shoot him, even if he is brandishing a shotgun at you, you'll still end up with a murder rap.
You really have got to be kidding. You really think you can't defend yourself if someone is shooting at you if all you were doing is simple trespass?

And refusing to leave his property.
Besides he has only fired warning shots so you can't be sure he intends to harm you so by the rules you have "explained" dozens of time you don't have the right to do anything.
Personally I would get off his property.

The person being shot at has no idea if a "warning shot" wasn't just a poorly aimed head shot. That is one of the reasons the whole concept of such is no longer well thought of by serious gun people. If you point a gun at someone it says I intend to kill you. Discharging that gun is makes that intent crystal clear.

By the rules you have given in the past how do you prove he shot first?
Wrong as usual a warning shot (of which I disapprove but for different reasons) is clearly aimed
away from the other person.
And you ignored the part about how the smart thing to do is leave before it gits to that point.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 9:47:56 AM

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: surelyujest71

DomKen: For instance, If a crazy old bastard starts yelling at yell to stop pissing in his woods you can't do anything. However if he leaves and comes back waving a gun around and then shoots at you, you are then free to kill him to keep him from killing you.

If you're pissing in his woods, then you're trespassing, you realize. If you shoot him, even if he is brandishing a shotgun at you, you'll still end up with a murder rap.
You really have got to be kidding. You really think you can't defend yourself if someone is shooting at you if all you were doing is simple trespass?

And refusing to leave his property.
Besides he has only fired warning shots so you can't be sure he intends to harm you so by the rules you have "explained" dozens of time you don't have the right to do anything.
Personally I would get off his property.

The person being shot at has no idea if a "warning shot" wasn't just a poorly aimed head shot. That is one of the reasons the whole concept of such is no longer well thought of by serious gun people. If you point a gun at someone it says I intend to kill you. Discharging that gun is makes that intent crystal clear.

By the rules you have given in the past how do you prove he shot first?
Wrong as usual a warning shot (of which I disapprove but for different reasons) is clearly aimed
away from the other person.
And you ignored the part about how the smart thing to do is leave before it gits to that point.

There is no way to make shot both a warning and "away" from the person you want to warn.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 9:59:49 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

There is no way to make shot both a warning and "away" from the person you want to warn.

Are you actually telling me that if you fire into the air or the ground it isn't a warning shot?
Too many movies.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 5/22/2014 10:02:34 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 10:05:44 AM

ThirdWheelWanted

Posts: 391
Joined: 4/23/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
There is no way to make shot both a warning and "away" from the person you want to warn.

Really? The loud Bang in your hand won't tell the guy that you've got a gun? I don't really believe in warning shots, but as far as I'm aware it's the noise as much as anything else that's meant to scare someone off. Kind of like racking a shot-gun.

< Message edited by ThirdWheelWanted -- 5/22/2014 10:07:29 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 10:11:24 AM

ThirdWheelWanted

Posts: 391
Joined: 4/23/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

There is no way to make shot both a warning and "away" from the person you want to warn.

Are you actually telling me that if you fire into the air or the ground it isn't a warning shot?
Too many movies.

Guess you have to shoot his hat or belt-buckle off for it to be a real warning, huh?

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 10:20:23 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

There is no way to make shot both a warning and "away" from the person you want to warn.

Are you actually telling me that if you fire into the air or the ground it isn't a warning shot?
Too many movies.

Guess you have to shoot his hat or belt-buckle off for it to be a real warning, huh?

Yep, as you no doubt noted I don't believe in warning shots either ( although if there are two the second one gets a warning shot) because you move the muzzle away from the person and because the one person you won't shoot is the one you want to scare, that bullet has to come down somewhere.

According to the course the Montgomery PD provided for new cwp holders Alabama law (prior to
those "terrible" stand your ground and castle laws) required a warning shot even when in yourown home.
One of the instructors, however, pointed out that when the police arrived they had no way of knowing if the round in the ceiling was the first or the last one fired as long as the intruder was pleading his case before a much "higher" court.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 5/22/2014 10:29:26 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to ThirdWheelWanted)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 10:29:39 AM

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: surelyujest71
DomKen: For instance, If a crazy old bastard starts yelling at yell to stop pissing in his woods you can't do anything. However if he leaves and comes back waving a gun around and then shoots at you, you are then free to kill him to keep him from killing you.
If you're pissing in his woods, then you're trespassing, you realize. If you shoot him, even if he is brandishing a shotgun at you, you'll still end up with a murder rap.
You really have got to be kidding. You really think you can't defend yourself if someone is shooting at you if all you were doing is simple trespass?

And refusing to leave his property.
Besides he has only fired warning shots so you can't be sure he intends to harm you so by the rules you have "explained" dozens of time you don't have the right to do anything.
Personally I would get off his property.

As I understand the terrain, there is no real viewing area by other people to where the guy was taking a piss. Its not like he's in Central Park, NYC, NY, pissing on a tree in the early afternoon with hundreds of people around him. There would likely be...NOBODY....around. So some lunatic with a shotgun comes out, claiming to be the owner of the land. It could just as easily be some crazy lunatic recently escaped from the mental ward as well!

Its generally common sense when it comes to 'watering a tree'. You do so out of sight from everyone to be considerate. Is what the guy was doing to that tree (i.e. pissing on it) REALLY going to do something bad to the tree? If the guy was taking a piss on the front lawn, backyard or anywhere within sight of civilization....THEN....the homeowner would have a decent argument. But out in the middle of nowhere woods? Trespassing is what? A $25 dollar fine in most states? Does it warrant a lunatic with a shotgun, firing: A) In the Air, or B ) Firing at people? No and No. That's a person in SERIOUS need of a mental health specialist.

Besides, shit like that, undermines gun ownership by Americans.

Landowner: "What the hell are you doing, dude?"

Guy Taking Piss: "Just taking a piss and getting back into the boat. Sorry to intrude!"

Landowner: "Oh.....ok.....bye...."

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 10:34:18 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: surelyujest71
DomKen: For instance, If a crazy old bastard starts yelling at yell to stop pissing in his woods you can't do anything. However if he leaves and comes back waving a gun around and then shoots at you, you are then free to kill him to keep him from killing you.
If you're pissing in his woods, then you're trespassing, you realize. If you shoot him, even if he is brandishing a shotgun at you, you'll still end up with a murder rap.
You really have got to be kidding. You really think you can't defend yourself if someone is shooting at you if all you were doing is simple trespass?

And refusing to leave his property.
Besides he has only fired warning shots so you can't be sure he intends to harm you so by the rules you have "explained" dozens of time you don't have the right to do anything.
Personally I would get off his property.

As I understand the terrain, there is no real viewing area by other people to where the guy was taking a piss. Its not like he's in Central Park, NYC, NY, pissing on a tree in the early afternoon with hundreds of people around him. There would likely be...NOBODY....around. So some lunatic with a shotgun comes out, claiming to be the owner of the land. It could just as easily be some crazy lunatic recently escaped from the mental ward as well!

Its generally common sense when it comes to 'watering a tree'. You do so out of sight from everyone to be considerate. Is what the guy was doing to that tree (i.e. pissing on it) REALLY going to do something bad to the tree? If the guy was taking a piss on the front lawn, backyard or anywhere within sight of civilization....THEN....the homeowner would have a decent argument. But out in the middle of nowhere woods? Trespassing is what? A $25 dollar fine in most states? Does it warrant a lunatic with a shotgun, firing: A) In the Air, or B ) Firing at people? No and No. That's a person in SERIOUS need of a mental health specialist.

Besides, shit like that, undermines gun ownership by Americans.

Landowner: "What the hell are you doing, dude?"

Guy Taking Piss: "Just taking a piss and getting back into the boat. Sorry to intrude!"

Landowner: "Oh.....ok.....bye...."

Yes and instead they said you can't make us.
He was criminal they were stupid.
They were stupid, that doesn't excuse him.
When he went to the car he should have called the cops instead of getting a gun and going back.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 5/22/2014 10:36:05 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to joether)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 10:37:54 AM

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
There is no way to make shot both a warning and "away" from the person you want to warn.

Are you actually telling me that if you fire into the air or the ground it isn't a warning shot?
Too many movies.

Guess you have to shoot his hat or belt-buckle off for it to be a real warning, huh?

Yep, as you no doubt noted I don't believe in warning shots either ( although if there are two the second one gets a warning shot) because you move the muzzle away from the person and because the one person you won't shoot is the one you want to scare, that bullet has to come down somewhere.

According to the course the Montgomery PD provided for new cwp holders Alabama law (prior to
those "terrible" stand your ground and castle laws) required a warning shot even when in yourown home.
One of the instructors, however, pointed out that when the police arrived they had no way of knowing if the round in the ceiling was the first or the last one fired as long as the intruder was pleading his case before a much "higher" court.

"Careful you Idiot, I said across her nose not up it!" "Who made that man a gunner?"

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/22/2014 10:42:12 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
There is no way to make shot both a warning and "away" from the person you want to warn.

Are you actually telling me that if you fire into the air or the ground it isn't a warning shot?
Too many movies.

Guess you have to shoot his hat or belt-buckle off for it to be a real warning, huh?

Yep, as you no doubt noted I don't believe in warning shots either ( although if there are two the second one gets a warning shot) because you move the muzzle away from the person and because the one person you won't shoot is the one you want to scare, that bullet has to come down somewhere.

According to the course the Montgomery PD provided for new cwp holders Alabama law (prior to
those "terrible" stand your ground and castle laws) required a warning shot even when in yourown home.
One of the instructors, however, pointed out that when the police arrived they had no way of knowing if the round in the ceiling was the first or the last one fired as long as the intruder was pleading his case before a much "higher" court.

"Careful you Idiot, I said across her nose not up it!" "Who made that man a gunner?"

LOL

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to joether)

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