Does self defense allow you to beat someone to death"?

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Does self defense allow you to beat someone to death&qu... - 5/20/2014 4:55:28 PM

BamaD

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Someone (they oppose the use of firearms for self defense) in another thread argues that if self defense allows you to shoot and kill someone it allows you to (when unarmed) to continue beating a helpless attacker until the are dead. Does anyone else see hypocrisy in this.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 5:12:19 PM

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From: Somewhere Texas
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Would it be anything like the hypocrisy of someone carrying a sign that with "ban guns" and the person next to them with a sign "Dont trust the Government"?

The holy bringer of the word, Sfc. Bellamy always said in hand to hand combat you stop when you are dead or when the other guy aint gonna move anymore. I always took that to mean beat the bastard till he aint a threat, in civilian life, I take it to mean till the bastard dont want to fight you anymore.

However, if said individual has a knife, I am gonna damn well try to check his fluid levels with it.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 5:14:45 PM

deathtothepixies

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why do you care? In your world they would shot dead anyway

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 5:17:11 PM

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Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

why do you care? In your world they would shot dead anyway

Gee, the fact I have a concealed carry permit, a total of 17 rifles and pistols, and 90,000 rounds of ammo makes me a pacifist then.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to deathtothepixies)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 5:18:39 PM

deathtothepixies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

why do you care? In your world they would shot dead anyway

Gee, the fact I have a concealed carry permit, a total of 17 rifles and pistols, and 90,000 rounds of ammo makes me a pacifist then.

my response was to bama not you

(in reply to jlf1961)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 5:24:19 PM

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

why do you care? In your world they would shot dead anyway

Gee, the fact I have a concealed carry permit, a total of 17 rifles and pistols, and 90,000 rounds of ammo makes me a pacifist then.

my response was to bama not you

I know that, however, might I point out that I am a firm supporter of the Castle Doctrine which states, deadly force can be used to protect home and property.

I also know of no instance where bama said he would shot an unarmed person, even though in many states, the Castle Doctrine style self defense laws would make it legal in some cases.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to deathtothepixies)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 5:24:33 PM

deathtothepixies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

90,000 rounds of ammo.

you are either a really fucking bad shot or you are planning on killing or wounding tens of thousands of people/animals

(in reply to jlf1961)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 5:39:02 PM

BamaD

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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

why do you care? In your world they would shot dead anyway

Gee, the fact I have a concealed carry permit, a total of 17 rifles and pistols, and 90,000 rounds of ammo makes me a pacifist then.

my response was to bama not you

I know that, however, might I point out that I am a firm supporter of the Castle Doctrine which states, deadly force can be used to protect home and property.

I also know of no instance where bama said he would shot an unarmed person, even though in many states, the Castle Doctrine style self defense laws would make it legal in some cases.

In Alabama it would be as long as for example he advanced on me after being warned, in which case I would have to assume him to be armed or crazy. That said if they have surrendered, are running away, or incapable of harming you the law takes, shall we say, a dim view of all shots fired after that time.
In the opening post I was referring to continuing to beat/kick a subdued opponent and going out of your way to kill them.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to jlf1961)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 5:41:40 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

why do you care? In your world they would shot dead anyway

Because this argument made by an anti gun person indicates a disregard for human life as long as the method of death is not a firearm.
I notice that you sidestepped the question.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to deathtothepixies)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 5:53:52 PM

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

90,000 rounds of ammo.

you are either a really fucking bad shot or you are planning on killing or wounding tens of thousands of people/animals

actually the term is "survivalist" as for my shooting skills, I am a part time instructor at the local range for long range shooting.

I also plan to double my ammo supply by this time next year, and am waiting for the paperwork to go through for an NFA weapon I am interested in.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to deathtothepixies)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 6:28:01 PM

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Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Someone (they oppose the use of firearms for self defense) in another thread argues that if self defense allows you to shoot and kill someone it allows you to (when unarmed) to continue beating a helpless attacker until the are dead. Does anyone else see hypocrisy in this.

No. I do see you missing the point that comparison presents.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 6:33:50 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Someone (they oppose the use of firearms for self defense) in another thread argues that if self defense allows you to shoot and kill someone it allows you to (when unarmed) to continue beating a helpless attacker until the are dead. Does anyone else see hypocrisy in this.

No. I do see you missing the point that comparison presents.

I am not the least bit surprised that you found this to be a brilliant comparison.
It is self defense if your first blow breaks their neck.
It is not self defense if you stomp him when he is helpless.
If you kill an attacker with a gun that is self defense.
It is not self defense if you stand over him and continue firing when he is helpless.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 6:35:06 PM

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I'd be a lot happier looking at the post(s) in question, if you could link to them.

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http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 6:38:01 PM

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Someone (they oppose the use of firearms for self defense) in another thread argues that if self defense allows you to shoot and kill someone it allows you to (when unarmed) to continue beating a helpless attacker until the are dead. Does anyone else see hypocrisy in this.

I don't see any hypocrisy in it at all. If an innocent person is attacked, and forced to defend themselves, God only knows what weird thing may happen in the mind when fight/flight kicks on the afterburners. The right of self defense is about what that individual perceives and believes at the moment.

Let's say a Darwin Award candidate with rape on his mind grabs that woman who went nuts at the McDonald's drive thru . If she guts him like a trout with a nearby knife, stabs him 140 times with a broken beer bottle, or crushes his larynx in her hands and stares into his eyes while the soul leaves, it's still his bad. So sad.

I think it is probably better left to the juries in such cases, rather than statute, but, "I snapped, and seemed to be standing outside myself while I kicked in the skull of the man who attacked me for no good reason," ought to be a legitimate defense argument to present to such a jury.

I think it would be very similar to the Kaarma case. Very poor choice of intended victim.

The gun is just one very good tool for the job of self-defense, but in hot blood, and with a righteous berserker rage on, there are endless ways to get it done.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 5/20/2014 6:47:13 PM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 7:02:28 PM

BamaD

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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I'd be a lot happier looking at the post(s) in question, if you could link to them.

Look at the last few pages of verdict in the Missouri shooting.
I didn't want to make this about trashing a particular individual, but rather about the mindset
that allows this to make sense to some people.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 7:02:36 PM

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Someone (they oppose the use of firearms for self defense) in another thread argues that if self defense allows you to shoot and kill someone it allows you to (when unarmed) to continue beating a helpless attacker until the are dead. Does anyone else see hypocrisy in this.

No. I do see you missing the point that comparison presents.

I am not the least bit surprised that you found this to be a brilliant comparison.
It is self defense if your first blow breaks their neck.
It is not self defense if you stomp him when he is helpless.
If you kill an attacker with a gun that is self defense.
It is not self defense if you stand over him and continue firing when he is helpless.

I didn't say it was a brilliant comparison -- you making up the dialogue again.

I did say that you missed the point. You are caught up in a different point -- and I'm not surprised.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 7:05:02 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Someone (they oppose the use of firearms for self defense) in another thread argues that if self defense allows you to shoot and kill someone it allows you to (when unarmed) to continue beating a helpless attacker until the are dead. Does anyone else see hypocrisy in this.

I don't see any hypocrisy in it at all. If an innocent person is attacked, and forced to defend themselves, God only knows what weird thing may happen in the mind when fight/flight kicks on the afterburners. The right of self defense is about what that individual perceives and believes at the moment.

Let's say a Darwin Award candidate with rape on his mind grabs that woman who went nuts at the McDonald's drive thru . If she guts him like a trout with a nearby knife, stabs him 140 times with a broken beer bottle, or crushes his larynx in her hands and stares into his eyes while the soul leaves, it's still his bad. So sad.

I think it is probably better left to the juries in such cases, rather than statute, but, "I snapped, and seemed to be standing outside myself while I kicked in the skull of the man who attacked me for no good reason," ought to be a legitimate defense argument to present to such a jury.

I think it would be very similar to the Kaarma case. Very poor choice of intended victim.

The gun is just one very good tool for the job of self-defense, but in hot blood, and with a righteous berserker rage on, there are endless ways to get it done.

This post surprised me. I expected you to see that there is a point after which the law has to say a person has gone to far.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 5/20/2014 7:06:43 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 7:15:51 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Someone (they oppose the use of firearms for self defense) in another thread argues that if self defense allows you to shoot and kill someone it allows you to (when unarmed) to continue beating a helpless attacker until the are dead. Does anyone else see hypocrisy in this.

No. I do see you missing the point that comparison presents.

I am not the least bit surprised that you found this to be a brilliant comparison.
It is self defense if your first blow breaks their neck.
It is not self defense if you stomp him when he is helpless.
If you kill an attacker with a gun that is self defense.
It is not self defense if you stand over him and continue firing when he is helpless.

I didn't say it was a brilliant comparison -- you making up the dialogue again.

I did say that you missed the point. You are caught up in a different point -- and I'm not surprised.

He is saying that if any killing with a firearm is justified then every killing without one is.
The fact that it isn't the point that you want doesn't surprise me or invalidate my point.
The reference to it being brilliant was sarcasm but I should have know you wouldn't catch that.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 5/20/2014 7:17:31 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 7:24:24 PM

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FR

Depends whether the killer gives three warnings first, no?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 5/20/2014 7:27:06 PM

Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Someone (they oppose the use of firearms for self defense) in another thread argues that if self defense allows you to shoot and kill someone it allows you to (when unarmed) to continue beating a helpless attacker until the are dead. Does anyone else see hypocrisy in this.

No. I do see you missing the point that comparison presents.

I am not the least bit surprised that you found this to be a brilliant comparison.
It is self defense if your first blow breaks their neck.
It is not self defense if you stomp him when he is helpless.
If you kill an attacker with a gun that is self defense.
It is not self defense if you stand over him and continue firing when he is helpless.

Meh.

Gang banger who has a bunch of buddies. He comes into your house alone. You're probably dead sooner or later anyway.
But you are probably safer if you kill him than if you leave him alive.

Its self defense if wounding him does not erase a reasonable fear for your life.

(in reply to BamaD)

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