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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 5:08:49 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

This is a political and religious forum, if you got a problem discussing politics maybe you should try a different part of collar chat.



Yes it is and this is the fiesty section. That means if cloudboy floats in and spews his usual partisan bullshit, we get to call him on it. But if you have a problem with that maybe you should take your own advice.

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 5:20:31 AM   
Tkman117


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...As long as it's related to the OP, what should I care if it's partisan or not? It's a forum for discussion, I got no problem with it, but complaining about talking politics in a politics forum is just funny and childish. Just thought I'd point that out, but then again you cons are aren't unfamiliar to double standards or anything like that so I guess my point was moot anyway

< Message edited by Tkman117 -- 6/11/2014 5:22:13 AM >

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 5:29:24 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

but then again you cons are aren't unfamiliar to double standards or anything like that so I guess my point was moot anyway



are aren't?

make up your mind already, either we are or we aren't, it can't be both ways.

And you do understand that making statements like that makes you look like a partisan troll too, right?

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 5:33:43 AM   
Tkman117


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Ooh, look at the big girl pointing out grammatical errors, you cons are so smart and sophisticated, how can we poor liberals ever stand up to your power of the mind?

And if pointing out the truth makes me a partisan troll, than I'd rather be a partisan troll than a liar any day of the week.

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 5:50:02 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

Ooh, look at the big girl pointing out grammatical errors, you cons are so smart and sophisticated, how can we poor liberals ever stand up to your power of the mind?



Actually I was asking you to clarify what you had typed. But I can totally understand why you chose to sling an insult rather than just answer.

quote:


And if pointing out the truth makes me a partisan troll, than I'd rather be a partisan troll than a liar any day of the week.


Was there a point hidden in there somewhere? Personally I'd rather not be called either.



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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 6:06:24 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted


I'd never hold anything he might have agreed to do once he was a captive against him. He was held for 5 years, pretty much anyone is going to break after that amount of time.


Is that why ace mccain is a senator and bobby garwood is a convict?

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 6:18:04 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

No, you're misunderstanding me yet again. Those are the three ARTICLES dealing with being absent from duty, 85-87. Within those articles are sections, paragraphs, and subsections, etc., that explain what is required to be charged with each.

For someone to be charged with desertion under Article 85, they need to 1) be absent with the intent never to return to military control, OR 2) leave his place of duty to avoid hazardous service or shirk important duty, OR 3) without being properly separated accept service in another branch of the military or accept foreign service.

No offense, I'm glad that you served and have a working knowledge of the UCMJ, but have you actually read Article 85 in it's entirety? Folksy wisdom and anecdotes are all well and good. I can just hear R. Lee Ermey saying "I will by god tell you, it's been this way since christ was a corporal!" But it really doesn't compare to actually pointing out what is said, in the UCMJ itself. Article 85 is about 3 pages long, and is pretty specific.

To me, it seems that Bergdahl can rather easily be charged under Article 85, section 2, quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. This is defined in Explanations, section 2: "(a) Hazardous duty or important service. “Hazardous duty” or “important service” may include service such as duty in a combat or other dangerous area" "(b) Quits. “Quits” in Article 85 means “goes absent without authority.”

So, going absent without authority, from a combat area, regardless of any other factors, is desertion. That's not an opinion, that's what the regulation says. Argue that any way you'd like, but THE BOOK says X.

But if you really want to keep going on section 1 and Intent, there seems to be evidence there as well.

Explanations, (1) Desertion with intent to remain away permanently.
a) In general. Desertion with intent to remain away permanently is complete when the person absents himself or herself without authority from his or her unit, organization, or place of duty, with the intent to remain away therefrom permanently. A prompt repentance and return, while material in extenuation, is no defense. It is not necessary that the person be absent entirely from military jurisdiction and control.

(i) The intent to remain away permanently from the unit, organization, or place of duty may be formed any time during the unauthorized absence. The intent need not exist throughout the absence, or for any particular period of time, as long as it exists at some time during the absence.

(ii) The accused must have intended to remain away permanently from the unit, organization, or place of duty. When the accused had such an intent, it is no defense that the accused also intended to report for duty elsewhere, or to enlist or accept an appointment in the same or a different armed force.

(iii) The intent to remain away permanently may be established by circumstantial evidence. Among the circumstances from which an inference may be drawn that an accused intended to remain absent permanently or; that the period of absence was lengthy; that the accused attempted to, or did, dispose of uniforms or other military property; that the accused purchased a ticket for a distant point or was arrested, apprehended, or surrendered a considerable distance from the accused’s station; that the accused could have conveniently surrendered to military control but did not; that the accused was dissatisfied with the accused’s unit, ship, or with military service; that the accused made remarks indicating an intention to desert; that the accused was under charges or had escaped from confinement at the time of the absence; that the accused made preparations indicative of an intent not to return (for example, financial arrangements), or that the accused enlisted or accepted an appointment in the same or another armed force without disclosing the fact that the accused had not been regularly separated, or entered any foreign armed service without being authorized by the United States. On the other hand, the following are included in the circumstances which may tend to negate an inference that the accused intended to remain away permanently: previous long and excellent service; that the accused left valuable personal property in the unit or on the ship; or that the accused was under the influence of alcohol or drugs during the absence. These lists are illustrative only.
(Highlighting mine)

So, if at ANY point, someone says F the Army, I'm never coming back, and leaves post, they are guilty of desertion. Even if they return the next morning. Odds are they'd never be charged with such, but by the strict letter of the law, that's the case. Again, that's not an opinion, it's written right there.

(Now I do realize that what the book says, and what happens are two very different things on occasion. Most likely if someone did the above, they'd be offered an Article 15, take the hit, and move on. But if the soldier insists on pushing the issue, or has a CO who's an ass, they can be charged with desertion.)

If someone had made statements expressing dissatisfaction with the military, had spent time learning the languages of the area, and had sent all of his personal belongings home to his parents, that can all be used as circumstantial evidence of his INTENT not to return. Again, not my opinion, it's written in the UCMJ.

So, I don't know if Bergdahl will be charged, but he certainly could be. If he's charged, I don't know if he'll be found guilty, but he could be. And of he's found guilty, he might just be let off with a dishonorable, since he was already "imprisoned" for 5 years. But, he could be given a stiffer sentence.


Once again, after several paragraphs of shithouse lawyering the question still stands, how many times has this happened in the past 60 years?
It has been pointed out to you that the ucmj is designed to be vague enough to charge anyone with most anything. That gives them the power of intimidation...that does not always translate into convictions. That you pendantically continue to point out that the letter of the law is such and such you have yet to validate that the letter of the law is practiced with any frequency.

(in reply to ThirdWheelWanted)
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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 8:52:43 AM   
ThirdWheelWanted


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

...As long as it's related to the OP, what should I care if it's partisan or not? It's a forum for discussion, I got no problem with it, but complaining about talking politics in a politics forum is just funny and childish. Just thought I'd point that out, but then again you cons are aren't unfamiliar to double standards or anything like that so I guess my point was moot anyway


I wasn't complaining about talking politics. I was pointing out that making every single thing that ever happens into a political argument is childish.

We've been getting a lot of rain lately, huh? Climate change! Damn right-wingers won't pass sensible legislation to save the Earth! Rant, rant, rant! And they won't pass reasonable gun-control laws either! Damn trigger happy loonies, just waiting to gun down minorities in the street! Rant!

It makes you look like an imbecile.

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 9:58:35 AM   
Tkman117


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LOL, you say I'm an imbecile when you dont even understand the positions that I or other libs support. Keep trying to describe liberal opinions to a liberal and you'll just make yourself look even more ridiculous.

We dont support sensible legislation on climate change because it's some fabricated political issue, we support legislation because if we dont invest now, more money will be lost in the future if nothing is done. It's not simply about the environment, humans are a part of the environment too and if something bad happens to it, then we feel the brunt of the effect. Fisheries, agriculture, forestry, and other industries will suffer if things aren't changed. And it's not about a massive, instantaneous shift in legislation towards green tech or industry, it's about a gradual change over time towards a more clean and efficient future. There's nothing unrealistic about that. The science is there for everyone to see and understand even thought you Neanderthals refuse to accept it.

As for guns, Canada has some pretty good gun laws, sure it's not perfect and we do have our share of incidences with gun violence. But compared to the US? We're a hell of a lot safer. Same with the majority of other first world countries around the world. If there's one thing the USA has wrong, it's gun laws.

And you want to talk about rants? Lol, the right wing is constantly complaining over women's rights to an abortion, gay rights, the right to carry a gun wherever you want, the "money is free speech" argument, and arguing that science can't be trusted or that it's of the devil. The right wing is the party of narrow minds and anti-intellectualism, and until you and the rest of conservatives realize that and stop voting for them, your country is going to slide back into the dark ages, and I pray that you dont drag down the rest of the developed world with you.

< Message edited by Tkman117 -- 6/11/2014 10:03:25 AM >

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 10:53:55 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

LOL, you say I'm an imbecile when you dont even understand the positions that I or other libs support. Keep trying to describe liberal opinions to a liberal and you'll just make yourself look even more ridiculous.



You jumped on her because she made a comment about cloudboys posting style. She explained why she wasn't talking about politics and gave an example of the posting style she was talking about. She then went on to say she thinks it makes you look like an imbecile to do this. No where did she suggest that you post that way. But if you think you fit the bill, go ahead and claim the title.

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 5:35:54 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

Keep in mind that based on the Rolling Stone article his unit functionally collapsed in the field and any decent defense attorney would use that in his defense at trial for any serious charges


Exactly.
There is copious and well-established precedent that desertion charges do not apply to soldiers who flee a combat unit that has "functionally collapsed" according to rolling stoners.

You're funny

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2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 5:44:33 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Keep in mind that based on the Rolling Stone article his unit functionally collapsed in the field and any decent defense attorney would use that in his defense at trial for any serious charges


Exactly.
There is copious and well-established precedent that desertion charges do not apply to soldiers who flee a combat unit that has "functionally collapsed" according to rolling stoners.

You're funny

You think the Army is going to put their problems on display like that just to punish one guy?

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 5:53:30 PM   
truckinslave


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You have no concept of the strictness of military law.
A JAG trying to introduce that sort of rubbish as some sort of evidence giving BB the right to desert would dishonor himself.
You are not just reaching, but dreaming.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 6:35:57 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

You have no concept of the strictness of military law.

Would that be the strict military law that prosecuted ace mc cain the traitor?

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 8:15:29 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

You have no concept of the strictness of military law.
A JAG trying to introduce that sort of rubbish as some sort of evidence giving BB the right to desert would dishonor himself.
You are not just reaching, but dreaming.

You think Bergdahl will be defended by a JAG lawyer? That's funny. He'll have a top flight civilian attorney who will have no compunctions if desertion is charged. 

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 9:16:23 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

You have no concept of the strictness of military law.
A JAG trying to introduce that sort of rubbish as some sort of evidence giving BB the right to desert would dishonor himself.
You are not just reaching, but dreaming.

You think Bergdahl will be defended by a JAG lawyer? That's funny. He'll have a top flight civilian attorney who will have no compunctions if desertion is charged. 

I didn't know his family was rich.

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 9:42:22 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I didn't know his family was rich.


Not a problem, if it ever came to that. Maybe someone who is up on their dead languages will help me out here. Pro Bono means "for the good." What's the correct Latin for, "for the publicity?"

First we get him all the way home, and as healed as we can. Then, most likely, he pleads in a summary court martial, or Article 15, and is given his discharge papers.

The Washington Post had a good story today, where they talked to friends he was communicating with more regularly than his parents. Worth a Google and a read.

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 10:11:30 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I didn't know his family was rich.


Not a problem, if it ever came to that. Maybe someone who is up on their dead languages will help me out here. Pro Bono means "for the good." What's the correct Latin for, "for the publicity?"

First we get him all the way home, and as healed as we can. Then, most likely, he pleads in a summary court martial, or Article 15, and is given his discharge papers.

The Washington Post had a good story today, where they talked to friends he was communicating with more regularly than his parents. Worth a Google and a read.

Exactly. I'd be shocked if this ever goes to a full court.

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 10:42:55 PM   
ThirdWheelWanted


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

The Washington Post had a good story today, where they talked to friends he was communicating with more regularly than his parents. Worth a Google and a read.


Ok, after reading that article, I'm starting to rethink my opinion. He may have deserted, but if that's any indication of his state of mind, he should never have been there in the first place. How does someone get discharged from the Coast Guard as unfit for military service, and then wind up in a combat arms unit? If that journal is real, between that and the prior discharge, any lawyer is going to have a field day if this goes to trial.

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RE: Bergdahl - 6/11/2014 10:55:57 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

How does someone get discharged from the Coast Guard as unfit for military service, and then wind up in a combat arms unit?



With a waiver, of course. At the rate those are being issued, I'd be willing to bet it was just rubber stamped.



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