RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (Full Version)

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BamaD -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/17/2014 2:35:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Who's fault is all this mess?. well it's the British and Americans largely.



Yes every problem in the world can be laid squarely at the feet of the Americans and their lapdogs, the British (for the dense sarcasm font off)


The Brits and Americans did indeed play a huge historical part in this, Bama. There isn't any way around that. The biggest part played, no doubt, was that of Hitler and the Nazi regime and their Holocaust ... but Brit and American politicians of the day ballsed up back then.

To say they were involved is correct, after all the area was a British Protectorate, (for those who don't know that's a nice word for colony, and yes i know there were some format differences) But the real problem is more that the Arabs instantly invaded Israel, and told the Arabs living there to flee before the Israelis exterminated them, thus creating the Palestinians. One of my Arabic instructors at DLI, an Egyptian I think, stated that if there was no Israel the Arabs would have invented one as they needed a common enemy to keep them from killing each other.




DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/17/2014 4:17:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
To say they were involved is correct, after all the area was a British Protectorate, (for those who don't know that's a nice word for colony, and yes i know there were some format differences) But the real problem is more that the Arabs instantly invaded Israel, and told the Arabs living there to flee before the Israelis exterminated them, thus creating the Palestinians. One of my Arabic instructors at DLI, an Egyptian I think, stated that if there was no Israel the Arabs would have invented one as they needed a common enemy to keep them from killing each other.

The funny thing about that is that for the longest time the Arabs that live in Israel did not consider themselves Palestinians and participated fully in the political life of Israel yet many of those Arabs would have come from the exact same communities as the so called Palestinian refugees supposedly languishing in camps these many years.




MrRodgers -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/17/2014 4:33:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

1948: Israel did not attack Palestine. The Arab states did. They divvied it up as part of their attack on Israel. That's how the West bank and Jerusalem (which was supposed to be under UN control) became part of Jordan and Gaza became part of Egypt. The Arab states then forced and kept Arab refugees in camps as a convenient propaganda tool.
1967: The Arab states massed to invade, Egypt alone had 100,000 troops along the border. Israel struck first and quickly routed the combined armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq.
1973: The Arab states attacked on Yom Kippur catching Israel by surprise. It did them no good. They were quickly defeated yet again.
in between and since the Arabs have maintained a terror campaign against Israel.

Now I'm not saying the Arabs don't have a grievance but maybe they should stop resorting to violence? Maybe try nonviolent resistance?

Did you click on the map and read the whole history ?

They and Israels friends...most certainly did.

In May 1948, The Declaration of the Establishment of Israel stated: "On the day of the termination of the British mandate and on the strength of the United Nations General Assembly declare The State of Israel will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel. It will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion. It will guarantee freedom of religion [and] conscience and will be faithful to the Charter of the United Nations."

The British then occupied Palestine, until 1948. That, again, was when the new State of Israel was established with approval of the United Nations, and more than a million Palestinians (according to their account) were displaced and made refugees.

However, the government of Israel has violated U.N. Charter and Resolutions, ignored the vision of the prophets, and ignored social and political rights of inhabitants because of race and religion.


There has been a long history of dislocation, discrimination, oppression and persecution against Palestinians which goes back all the way to 1917. It expanded and got worse in 1948, and it has continued ever since.

So if the UN declared your homeland a new state of a whole new people and they all came in and started throwing you, your family and friends out...you wouldn't go to war ?



Do you mean the maps of the Palestinian Authority and their educational pedagogies that leave Israel's existence completely out? http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=466

Could be since it started out that way. But no I speak of Palestine now which is almost all Israel.




MrRodgers -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/17/2014 4:49:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
You would be correct but how is it that the world is to recognize Israel only by virtue of UN resolution but then [she] is no longer to be sanctioned for her 1/2 a century for violating resolutions. Plus how is it the world and the Arabs are supposed to accept an absolutely arbitrary decision to take any land form one people and give it to another ?

Furthermore, the beginning of this all started with the British betrayal after they teamed up with the Palestinians to kick out the Ottomans only to then tell them...now this is British Palestine and you'll live under our thumb. Then of all things...just walk away when in 1948 and the going gets tough instead of standing their ground to preserve Palestine.

Seems all of the western world supported the UN taking that land and have told the Palestinians to go to hell. Then Israel takes almost all the rest the land (90%) in Palestine from the Palestinians.

How about if the UN decided to give Texas, New Mex., Ariz and California back to Mexico ? You and everybody who defends Israel would then have to side with the Mexicans.

You're under so many false assumptions about the history of the region it is simply impossible to correct them all in a single post.

I'll try and get you on the path by pointing you to one fact, before Zionists starting moving into the area there were actually very few people living in the area, Jaffa (the Arab port community near Tel Aviv) which was one of the largest towns only supported maybe 20k people. There just wasn't enough fresh water for any more. It was the Zionists from Europe in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that financed the digging of wells that allowed the expansion of the population.

70,000 Jews 690,000 Arabs around 1900.

Here

Whatever the history since, there is hardly an equitable division of water now. Here




FatDomDaddy -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/17/2014 6:02:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Lets look at shit here should we? Native Americans owned 100% of the land, we waltz in all of a sudden we own 96% and they maybe 4%. So, how much you own? Lets take 90% of that away from ya, whatta ya say? You seem to think it is a right brilliant fuckin deal, apparently.



They tried and lost...




FatDomDaddy -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/17/2014 6:05:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Cool, hope the Palestinians can take it back, its the American Way.


Why do you hope that?

Israel kicks the shit out of every Arab country that attacks them




MrRodgers -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/17/2014 7:52:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Cool, hope the Palestinians can take it back, its the American Way.


Why do you hope that?

Israel kicks the shit out of every Arab country that attacks them

Not without American support all of these years.




crazyml -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/18/2014 12:16:39 AM)

Where in my post did in assert that every problem in the world is the fault of the Americans and the English?

Oh, I didn't did I? So when you invent new meanings from my words, do you think it helps the debate, or is there a chance that it makes you look like a stupid dick?

The definition and creation of the state of Israel was bungled from the outset, and since then the likes of the Americans and the British have bungled dozens of times in their responses to events.




SadistDave -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/18/2014 2:46:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Cool, hope the Palestinians can take it back, its the American Way.


Why do you hope that?

Israel kicks the shit out of every Arab country that attacks them

Not without American support all of these years.


Excuse me... the U.S. hasn't supported Israel for years? You might notice that the article was written in 2012 but includes the estimate of 3.5 billion per year in military aid from 2013-2018. There's a reason for that, which I will get to directly.

I suggest you have a close look at page 172 of this budget. You'll find that The Bamsters 2013 budget request for Israel was for $3.1B.

In 2007 America signed a Memorandum of Understanding with Israel which obligates America to provide $30B in military aid to Israel over a ten year period.

We actually provide quite a lot of aid to Israel. Not that he had a choice in the matter, but in 2013 The Bamsters budget request for Israel's military aid was just shy of half of the entire planets foreign military aid requests.

-SD-





Politesub53 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/18/2014 3:24:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


To say they were involved is correct, after all the area was a British Protectorate, (for those who don't know that's a nice word for colony, and yes i know there were some format differences) But the real problem is more that the Arabs instantly invaded Israel, and told the Arabs living there to flee before the Israelis exterminated them, thus creating the Palestinians. One of my Arabic instructors at DLI, an Egyptian I think, stated that if there was no Israel the Arabs would have invented one as they needed a common enemy to keep them from killing each other.


I was under the impression you felt history stems from 1776, my bad, since you obviously feel it started in 1948




Politesub53 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/18/2014 3:29:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The funny thing about that is that for the longest time the Arabs that live in Israel did not consider themselves Palestinians and participated fully in the political life of Israel yet many of those Arabs would have come from the exact same communities as the so called Palestinian refugees supposedly languishing in camps these many years.



Not true Ken. Some eighty percent of Palestinians left or were expelled in 1948. many after a massacre of Arabs carried out by the Irgun.




Musicmystery -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/18/2014 6:21:26 AM)

Now you did it. Some overpuffed ego is going to post a long diatribe about how the Palestine/Israel conflict goes back to William the Conqueror.




MrRodgers -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/18/2014 11:13:36 AM)

Palestinian Jews vs Colonial (Zionist) Jews...Letter from T.E. Lawrence to General Clayton

Lawrence wanted the “Jewish section cleared up” – and addresses, en passant , Lawrence’s conflict with the Zionist pioneer Aaron Aaronsohn and, by extension, those Zionist converts within the British establishment, like Sykes (and Balfour, Orsmby-Gore, Deedes and Meinertzhagen), whom Aaronsohn had influenced… 

“General Clayton showed me a letter from you which contained a message to myself - and this has prompted me to ask you a few queries about Near East affairs.

 I hope you will be able to give me an idea of how matters stand in reference to them, since part of the responsibility of action is inevitably thrown on to me, and, unless I know more or less what is wanted, there might be trouble. “About the Jews in Palestine, Feisal has agreed not to operate or agitate west of the [Wadi] Araba-Dead Sea-Jordan line, or south of the Haifa-Beisan line . . . “You know of course the root differences between the Palestine Jew and the colonist Jew: to Feisal the important point is that the former speak Arabic, and the latter German Yiddish.

He is in touch with the Arab Jews (their H.Q. at Safed and Tiberias is in his sphere) and they are ready to help him, on conditions. They show a strong antipathy to the colonist Jews, and have even suggested repressive measures against them. Feisal has ignored this point hitherto, and will continue to do so. His attempts to get into touch with the colonial Jews have not been very fortunate. They say they have made their arrangements with the Great Powers, and wish no contact with the Arab Party. They will not help the Turks or the Arabs. Now Feisal wants to know (information had better come to me for him since I usually like to make up my mind before he does) what is the arrangement standing between the colonist Jews (called Zionists sometimes) and the Allies . . .

What have you promised the Zionists, and what is their programme? “I saw Aaronson in Cairo, and he said at once the Jews intended to acquire the land-rights of all Palestine from Gaza to Haifa, and have practical autonomy therein. Is this acquisition to be by fair purchase or by forced sale and expropriation? The present half-crop peasantry were the old freeholders and under Moslem landlords may be ground down but have fixity of tenure. Arabs are usually not employed by Jewish colonies. Do the Jews propose the complete expulsion of the Arab peasantry, or their reduction to a day-labourer class? \

“You know how the Arabs cling even to bad land and will realise that while Arab feelings didn't matter under Turkish rule . . . the condition will be vastly different if there is a new, independent, and rather cock-a-hoop Arab state north and east and south of the Jewish state. “I can see a situation arising in which the Jewish influence in European finance might not be sufficient to deter the Arab peasants from refusing to quit - or worse!” 

Lawrence’s reading of the incipient Arab-Zionist  situation was, clearly, prescient - were a Jewish state established in Palestine, he feared the Arab movement would come to an end. Hence his intense interest in “clearing up” the Jewish and French “sections". But even as he was promising Prince Feisal an empire consisting of the Ottoman territories from Damascus to the Arabian peninsula, the British and French had already decided to carve the region up between them - regardless of the wishes of the Arabs, the Jews, or anyone else who might be living in the territories in question. 

That's about all of the 'history' we need, isn't it ?




DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/18/2014 1:33:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The funny thing about that is that for the longest time the Arabs that live in Israel did not consider themselves Palestinians and participated fully in the political life of Israel yet many of those Arabs would have come from the exact same communities as the so called Palestinian refugees supposedly languishing in camps these many years.



Not true Ken. Some eighty percent of Palestinians left or were expelled in 1948. many after a massacre of Arabs carried out by the Irgun.

I never wrote how many stayed versus left. Just that those that stayed call themselves Arabs not Palestinians and have full rights in Israel. Is there any Arab state where Jews have full civil rights?




BamaD -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/18/2014 1:58:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Where in my post did in assert that every problem in the world is the fault of the Americans and the English?

Oh, I didn't did I? So when you invent new meanings from my words, do you think it helps the debate, or is there a chance that it makes you look like a stupid dick?

The definition and creation of the state of Israel was bungled from the outset, and since then the likes of the Americans and the British have bungled dozens of times in their responses to events.

You didn't quote my post so I will.

Yes every problem in the world can be laid squarely at the feet of the Americans and their lapdogs, the British (for the dense sarcasm font off)

Are you volunteering to be one of the ultra dense since even with the notice that I was being sarcastic you didn't get it.




thompsonx -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/18/2014 2:40:05 PM)


ORIGINAL: BamaD

. One of my Arabic instructors at DLI, an Egyptian I think, stated that if there was no Israel the Arabs would have invented one as they needed a common enemy to keep them from killing each other.



You know my cousin's hairdressers b/f said the same thing...you know what??? I think your story equals his in candor.




thompsonx -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/18/2014 2:41:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Lets look at shit here should we? Native Americans owned 100% of the land, we waltz in all of a sudden we own 96% and they maybe 4%. So, how much you own? Lets take 90% of that away from ya, whatta ya say? You seem to think it is a right brilliant fuckin deal, apparently.



They tried and lost...



When did they try that?




thompsonx -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/18/2014 2:43:11 PM)


ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

As far I'm concerned, the Palestinians can go to hell, and we can use the bodies of the lefties who support them to pave the road.

It is reasurring to know how you feel about the lives of your fellow americans. Your candor as always, is always compelling.






thompsonx -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/18/2014 2:44:54 PM)


ORIGINAL: BamaD

Yes every problem in the world can be laid squarely at the feet of the Americans and their lapdogs, the British

Your candor is to be commended but it is more than a little greedy to claim all the credit.




thompsonx -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (7/18/2014 2:45:57 PM)


ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

You left out racism.

Thank you for that update.




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