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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 2:29:26 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Eyewitness testimony, especially from varied witnesses at different vantage points, is going to present a contradictory narrative. In shooting cases like this, the shooter gets to tell his story, ala George Zimmerman, but the deceased story is gone and left to our own imagination or reconstruction.

It's a little bit like the Ray Rice case -- absent the especially damning video of him cold-cocking his wife in the elevator -- he'd be playing in the NFL right now.

I'm curious, cloudboy: if the determination had been that the eyewitness testimony had supported an indictment...would you still consider it contradictory?

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 2:31:25 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

So there is an excuse to burn an loot.


You might as well talk about the weather having no excuse to turn stormy.

An unarmed black kid gets shot multiple times by a white cop. Of course there was going to be a riot. Jeez, this situation could do with a dose of political realism over political moralising.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 3:28:12 PM   
ThirdWheelWanted


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
An unarmed black kid gets shot multiple times by a white cop. Of course there was going to be a riot. Jeez, this situation could do with a dose of political realism over political moralising.


Why yes, you're right, it does need some realism. A felon was shot by an officer, after assaulting the officer and trying to take his weapon. There we go, realism added to your comment.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 3:34:44 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
An unarmed black kid gets shot multiple times by a white cop. Of course there was going to be a riot. Jeez, this situation could do with a dose of political realism over political moralising.


Why yes, you're right, it does need some realism. A felon was shot by an officer, after assaulting the officer and trying to take his weapon. There we go, realism added to your comment.


Isnt realism the same as racism though, in Newspeak

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 3:42:10 PM   
cloudboy


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Status: offline 		In legal proceedings, eye witness testimony tends to very unreliable and prone to errors. Throw in multiple eye witnesses from different vantage points and you can very likely find many seeds of reasonable doubt.

You seem to be asking a hidden question, so I will try to answer it. Yes, I am very troubled by a police officer shooting an unarmed, civilian teenager. Something is very wrong there. But, the consistent narrative of these deadly shootings is that the shooter gets to tell the tale. In this case Officer Wilson said he was attacked as if by some combination of Hulk Hogan and a "demon."

He conveyed to the grand jury that he felt "in fear of his life," and because of those fears there can't be a finding of excessive force. This is pretty much a nation wide standard in the USA, something I learned after Ferguson when statistics revealed that officers in deadly shootings rarely suffer any consequences. The laws are tilted in favor of giving the police the benefit of the doubt.

Brown is dead. We'll never hear his version of events. According Wilson, Brown went for his gun and punched him. After Wilson discharged two shots, Brown ran away from the police car, then he stopped, turned around and charged Wilson who was armed and commanding him to stand down.

Brown going for Wilson's gun. Brown charging at Wilson, who was armed with a gun -- neither make sense to me. But, that's the story.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 11/25/2014 3:45:05 PM >

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 3:52:52 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
An unarmed black kid gets shot multiple times by a white cop. Of course there was going to be a riot. Jeez, this situation could do with a dose of political realism over political moralising.


Why yes, you're right, it does need some realism. A felon was shot by an officer, after assaulting the officer and trying to take his weapon. There we go, realism added to your comment.


No, it wasn't, TWW. Normally when that happens, there aren't widespread riots. In this case there were. You haven't understood what is meant by 'political realism'. Try again.


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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 3:56:45 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
An unarmed black kid gets shot multiple times by a white cop. Of course there was going to be a riot. Jeez, this situation could do with a dose of political realism over political moralising.


Why yes, you're right, it does need some realism. A felon was shot by an officer, after assaulting the officer and trying to take his weapon. There we go, realism added to your comment.

What felon? Mike Brown had never been arrested and has never been accused of any felony ever.

BTW let us do add realism to your comment the 6' 4" Wilson claimed that he was in such a pants pissing panic over the possibility that Brown might throw another punch at him that he shot him multiple times at a range of well over 100 feet. This despite the fact that he was completely not injured by the supposed violent confrontation. No bruises, no swelling, no cuts, no nothing. In this case we do actually have photos of the officer taken as evidence that prove he was not injured. So where are the signs of the ultra violent struggle that made two blows enough to warrant the use of lethal force?

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 4:02:22 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		There is no excuse for the current rioting and looting in Ferguson. The Grand Jury delivered the verdict they saw fit. I thought the stepfather made an inflammatory speech when the verdict was announced, even if he was emotional.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 4:07:07 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

BTW let us do add realism to your comment the 6' 4" Wilson


Really - is he that big? I thought he was a little chap - lots of guts, no fear, true American grit and stuff - but intelligent enough to know that he couldn't handle a 7 foot giant, albeit an unarmed one, like the kid he shot dead.

Point of Info: How many shots did he put into the kid's body, again? I keep reading different numbers. And, by way of comparison, how many shots does it take to kill a grizzly bear? You see, I don't know how things work in America.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 4:11:09 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

In legal proceedings, eye witness testimony tends to very unreliable and prone to errors. Throw in multiple eye witnesses from different vantage points and you can very likely find many seeds of reasonable doubt.

You seem to be asking a hidden question, so I will try to answer it. Yes, I am very troubled by a police officer shooting an unarmed, civilian teenager. Something is very wrong there. But, the consistent narrative of these deadly shootings is that the shooter gets to tell the tale. In this case Officer Wilson said he was attacked as if by some combination of Hulk Hogan and a "demon."

He conveyed to the grand jury that he felt "in fear of his life," and because of those fears there can't be a finding of excessive force. This is pretty much a nation wide standard in the USA, something I learned after Ferguson when statistics revealed that officers in deadly shootings rarely suffer any consequences. The laws are tilted in favor of giving the police the benefit of the doubt.

Brown is dead. We'll never hear his version of events. According Wilson, Brown went for his gun and punched him. After Wilson discharged two shots, Brown ran away from the police car, then he stopped, turned around and charged Wilson who was armed and commanding him to stand down.

Brown going for Wilson's gun. Brown charging at Wilson, who was armed with a gun -- neither make sense to me. But, that's the story.
No hidden question. And no, you didn't answer it.

If this eyewitness evidence had resulted in an indictment of Officer Wilson, would you still consider the accounts to be "contradictory"? Unreliable?


< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 11/25/2014 4:16:54 PM >

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 4:19:18 PM   
ThirdWheelWanted


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

What felon? Mike Brown had never been arrested and has never been accused of any felony ever.



Hmmm, you seem to be forgetting that on his way to Grandma's house he robbed a convenience store. Also, based on the testimony from the Grand Jury, he assaulted an officer, tried to steal the officer's weapon, and resisted arrest. Those are all felonies. But you're right, he wasn't arrested.

As far as the rest of your statement, were you at the Grand Jury? If not, I'd say that the folks who were, and voted not to hold officer Wilson over for trial, might know a bit more then you.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 4:30:09 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Eyewitness testimony, especially from varied witnesses at different vantage points, is going to present a contradictory narrative. In shooting cases like this, the shooter gets to tell his story, ala George Zimmerman, but the deceased story is gone and left to our own imagination or reconstruction.

It's a little bit like the Ray Rice case -- absent the especially damning video of him cold-cocking his wife in the elevator -- he'd be playing in the NFL right now.



I notice you ignored that the physical evidence backed Wilson's story.


Of course it did. That does not lead to a show trial.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 4:34:03 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

So there is an excuse to burn an loot.


You might as well talk about the weather having no excuse to turn stormy.

An unarmed black kid gets shot multiple times by a white cop. Of course there was going to be a riot. Jeez, this situation could do with a dose of political realism over political moralising.


OF COURSE?????????/!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why?

Why doesn't black on black or black on white crime cause this?

Let's fu%^ing take the political out of this.

Does the justice system work or not?

The media stirred this up.

Look, you grab a cop's gun inside his car, less than pretty things are gonna happen. Do you really think that if I did the same the outcome would be different?

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I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 4:43:42 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

Look, you grab a cop's gun inside his car, less than pretty things are gonna happen. Do you really think that if I did the same the outcome would be different?


If I were a political leader, Aylee, I wouldn't much give a damn. If it looks like an unarmed black teen has been shot, multiple times, by a white cop, in an area that's already a racial powder keg, who is then not even tried for it, then I would expect a riot - one in which shops are looted, a community falls apart and a cop is shot, even. I'd ask the exact same question: would you really expect the outcome to be any different? *That* is what I'm getting at with 'political realism'. Justice has to be done, seen to be done, and *accepted to be have been done by all major parties*. Without all three of those conditions being met, an almighty balls up ensues, whether people think it's morally justified or not. As indeed it has ensued.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 11/25/2014 5:26:43 PM >

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 4:50:39 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


Why doesn't black on black on white crime cause this?



You've never heard of the Ku Klux Klan?

They've even got a very liberal sense of what constitutes a "crime."

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 5:02:13 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Look, you grab a cop's gun inside his car, less than pretty things are gonna happen. Do you really think that if I did the same the outcome would be different?


If I were a political leader, Aylee, I wouldn't much give a damn. If it looks like an unarmed black teen has been shot, multiple times, by a white cop, in an area that's already a racial powder keg, who is than not even tried for it, then I would expect a riot - one in which shops are looted, a community falls apart and a cop is shot, even. I'd ask the exact same question: would you really expect the outcome to be any different? *That* is what I'm getting at with 'political realism'. Justice has to be done, seen to be done, and *accepted to be have been done by all major parties*. Without all three of those conditions being met, an almighty balls up ensues, whether people think it's morally justified or not. As indeed it has ensued.
That may have been what it looked like peon BEFORE the grand jury.

But there was a grand jury, consisting of jurors of differing races. They listened to the evidence, weighed the evidence and decided there was not enough of a viable reason to bring Officer Wilson to trial. In this country, that is justice. A jury of your peers decides your guilt or innocence based on the evidence.

Since when do people emotionally invested in one preordained...in their minds...conclusion constitute what is or is not justice? You yourself said "by all major parties"...the charging party, the charged party and the friends and relatives of the victim as well as the victim. That's THREE parties. And only one of them should be able to declare the other two wrong and riot when they are declared wrong?


< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 11/25/2014 5:11:26 PM >

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 5:13:01 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
An unarmed black kid gets shot multiple times by a white cop. Of course there was going to be a riot. Jeez, this situation could do with a dose of political realism over political moralising.


Why yes, you're right, it does need some realism. A felon was shot by an officer, after assaulting the officer and trying to take his weapon. There we go, realism added to your comment.


No, it wasn't, TWW. Normally when that happens, there aren't widespread riots. In this case there were. You haven't understood what is meant by 'political realism'. Try again.


I have seen cases were they still demanded the cop be put away after they had film of the dead guy standing over him with a gun when shot. You don't understand what is going on.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 5:14:03 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

BTW let us do add realism to your comment the 6' 4" Wilson


Really - is he that big? I thought he was a little chap - lots of guts, no fear, true American grit and stuff - but intelligent enough to know that he couldn't handle a 7 foot giant, albeit an unarmed one, like the kid he shot dead.

Point of Info: How many shots did he put into the kid's body, again? I keep reading different numbers. And, by way of comparison, how many shots does it take to kill a grizzly bear? You see, I don't know how things work in America.

with a 9mm, about 30

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 5:25:33 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

You don't understand what is going on.


Me, and all the rioters too, it seems. I don't matter, obviously - but they do. This is one reason why public trials exist. Justice needs to be done, to be seen to be done, and accepted to have been done, as I said.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 11/25/2014 5:39:03 PM   
thishereboi


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< Message edited by thishereboi -- 11/25/2014 5:42:37 PM >

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