freedomdwarf1
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
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ORIGINAL: bounty44
i am curious by what metric is the usa having "lower quality healthcare for its $, than those countries with 'socialised healthcare' determined?
Usually the stats have to do with life expectancy, infant mortality, etc. Many of the metrics have other things that impact them, likely more than quality of health care, which tends to skew things towards those that support socialized health care's arguments.
Where do you get this from Desi??
Do you have any proof that all the stats out there are skewed to favour social healthcare results??
At no point in time did I say "all the stats."
Life expectancy in the US is impacted not only by the health care received, but also by the lifestyle lived, doesn't it?
No, it doesn't.
And when you state "which tends to skew things towards those that support socialized health care's arguments" with no qualifier, that would usually be taken as 'all' or most.
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
It also contains the murder rates, and things like that, too. So, a fat, lazy nation where people kill each other more would tend to have a lower life expectancy, health care aside, no?
Most of the stats dealing with healthcare and life expectancy are dealing with deaths and mishaps within the healthcare industry, not other shootings etc.
So when these stats are published, it generally doesn't include general deaths or serious injuries due to external influences unless it says as much.
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
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im also pretty skeptical of this: "It is interesting to note that, as far as I can tell, irrespective of their location on the left-right political spectrum, all of the people posting here residing in countries that have universal health care systems (aka socialised healthcare) are enthusiastic supporters of the system"...if that is indeed true, why are so many people coming to the usa for treatments they cannot get, or have to wait excessively long for, or expertise they cannot find in the countries they left?
People don't come to the US for cheap care, that's for sure. As far as the US having "the best care in the world," that might depend on whether you're talking about the level of expertise or technological things, as compared to an overall "top to bottom" picture.
Surely, unless you have a particular axe to grind, an overall picture is the best one to use for comparison?
And certainly the US is far from the top.
I don't know where Bounty is getting figures from but because of the costs, most don't go to the US for any procedures.
The thing is, the word "best" isn't necessarily a good descriptor (or it is, if you have an axe to grind). It's subjective.
If you compare the capabilities of the US medical care sector, I'd be willing to bet the US comes out at the top of that list. That's having the "best" health care. If you include the cost, the US falls to the bottom, or nearly so. So, how you define "best" is going to determine how the nations stack up, and that's a purely subjective thing.
If you apply the same criteria across your sample, the same is being applied so the outcome has the same skew or equality, depending how you do it.
So the definition of 'best' could mean the number of people who survive certain procedures or treatment.
It could also mean birth survival or actually living longer.
If country A has 10% higher survival rate than country B for bowel cancer, it would be fair to say that country A is better, no?
Apply that logic across the board of everything, and that's how they arrive at those stats.
Now, if two countries are roughly equal but one is costing 2 or 3 times more to achieve those stats, then it would be fair to state the more expensive one is not as efficient in delivering that same healthcare.
Lets take a look at some stats -
Figure 1.10.1 Prevalence estimates of diabetes, adults aged 20-79 years, 2011
US is worse than UK.
Figure 1.7.1 Infant mortality rates, 2011 (or nearest year)
US is worse than UK.
Figure 1.6.1 Suicide mortality rates, 2011 (or nearest year)
US is worse than UK.
Figure 1.5.1 Transport accident mortality rates, 2011 (or nearest year)
US is worse than UK.
Figure 1.4.1 All cancer mortality rates, total and by gender, 2011 (or nearest year)
US is, for once, better than UK.
Figure 1.3.1 Ischemic heart disease mortality, 2011 and change between 1990 and 2011 (or nearest year)
US is worse than UK.
Figure 1.1.1 Life expectancy at birth, 1970 and 2011 (or nearest year)
US is worse than UK.
Figure 2.2.1 Overweight (including obesity) among children, 2010 (or latest year)
US is worse than UK.
Interestingly, Greece and Italy, renown for its 'healthy' olive oil diet, are the worst of all.
Figure 2.7.1 Obesity among adults, 2011 (or nearest year)
US is worse than UK.
Figure 6.1.1 Health insurance coverage for a core set of services, 2011
US is worse than UK.The US is the worst by a very long margin.
Figure 6.2.1 Out-of-pocket medical spending as a share of final household consumption, 2011 (or nearest year)
US is worse than UK.
Figure 7.1.1 Health expenditure per capita, 2011 (or nearest year)
US is worse than UK.
Figure 7.4.1 Expenditure on pharmaceuticals per capita and as a share of GDP, 2011 (or nearest year)
US is worse than UK.
In fact, the UK is sooo low, it doesn't even feature on this graph.
Figure 8.2.1 Life expectancy at age 65, 2011 and years gained since 1960 (or nearest year)
US is worse than UK.
All taken from "Health at a Glance 2013"
Source: http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/health-at-a-glance-2013_health_glance-2013-en
All-in-all, the US doesn't do very well at all on most of the healthcare indicators.
To sum up: You dramatically get less healthcare coverage than anyone and at the most expensive rate.
You are less likely to survive at birth, despite the huge costs.
You are more likely to be an obese child and an obese adult.
You are likely to die sooner too.
You are also more likely to die from heart disease, a traffic accident or suicide than us.
To go back to a part of your post - quote:
ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
If you compare the capabilities of the US medical care sector, I'd be willing to bet the US comes out at the top of that list. That's having the "best" health care.
Costs aside, these figures don't show that at all.
Compared to the UK, it is worse for all except one category.
Do you think that private insurance healthcare in the US is the best?
And you seriously think that social healthcare is not one of the best available?
Jeeezz.... The figures speak for themselves.
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“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell, 1903-1950
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RE: US Health Care Costs - 
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