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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/3/2014 3:34:40 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
My girl is part Asian and so naturally I eat a lot of rice as well, therefore I am having a bit of a look into this

I don't think there is much truth because through global disease stats, US is higher for almost everything, like heart attack, and cancer, compared to every country in Asia who eats nothing but rice 3 meals a day. Whereas rice is not a staple everyday food in the West.

That would be because the US food chain is loaded with corn syrup, sugars, MSG and GM crops - not the rice.

Sanity posted a link suggesting that rice contained arsenic and might be dangerous. Greta countered that argument with the fact that other countries eat much more rice and don't have the higher stats. Now I understand that you can't pass up the chance to tell everyone how awful the US is, but what the fuck does the amount of garbage we eat have to do with how rice affects people's health in other countries?

That's exactly the point I was making. She refuted Sanity's post.
Greta posited that because she and her countrymen eat lots more rice than those in the US, that is why her country has a lower cancer death rate - thus, rice can't possibly be causing cancer.
I just pointed out that rice wasn't the root of the problem, something else was. Ergo: her posit is debunked.


Sanity's link demonstrated that there was arsenic in the rice, not in the meal the rice was in.


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Profile   Post #: 301
RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/3/2014 7:55:05 PM   
quizzicalkitten


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri




Hmmm

Population of Canada 35.6 Million
Population of Australia 23.13 Million
Population of France 66.03 Million
Population of Germany 80.63 Million
Population of Japan 127.3 Million
Population of Switzerland 8.08 Million
Population of UK 63.1 Million
Population of Norway 5.08 Million


Population of the US 316.1 Million...

I have no Idea why a country with 9x, 13x, 5x, 4x, 2.5x, 39.5x, 5x or 63x The amount of people....why on earth would it cost more... to care for that influx of people...

I mean NEXT your going to ask why 2+4 is greater then 2+2...


If the spending remained the same the costs for the following country with the same amount of people would be...

Canada $ 49,400
Australia $29,700
France $18,000
Germany 14,400
Japan 6,750
Switzerland 173,800
UK 15,000
Norway 315,000

Yeah, It has everything to do with Socialized medicine and nothing to do with population at all

I mean a country with 63 times more elderly people, wouldnt be a drain on the system... Nope nope nope....

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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 12:05:08 AM   
eulero83


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Status: offline 		quizzicalkitten.... it's per capita... and it's also by purchasing power parity... so no it has not to do with population and nor with the currency

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 12/4/2014 12:07:55 AM >

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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 1:06:01 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		quizzicalkitten, there is no need to introduce contrived or hypothetical statistics into this discussion - the actual statistics are freely available.

Those stats are crystal clear - the US spends more on healthcare per capita and receives lower quality healthcare for its $, than those countries with 'socialised healthcare'. This poor return on $ spent is amplified by the failure of the US system to cover all of its population, again in marked contrast to those countries with 'socialised medicine' which succeed in doing so.

It is interesting to note that, as far as I can tell, irrespective of their location on the left-right political spectrum, all of the people posting here residing in countries that have universal health care systems (aka socialised healthcare) are enthusiastic supporters of the system, while US posters are sharply divided on the merits of the system operating in the US. One might conclude that those of us fortunate enough to enjoy universal healthcare systems have no doubt that those universal healthcare systems are far superior to the US system, and that many in the US would agree with this conclusion.

This underwrites the observation that from a consumer's point of view universal healthcare systems cater to their needs and interests far better than US-style systems. As the whole point of healthcare is precisely that - to cater to its consumers' needs and interests - I wonder why there needs to be a discussion at all. Clearly, one system is vastly superior to the other.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/4/2014 1:16:33 AM >

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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 1:16:08 AM   
eulero83


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Status: offline 		it doesn't let me edit anymore so I have to write another post:

acctually you should consider how many persons are treated because as there is no universal coverage in the per capita value underestimate the gap.

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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 3:11:36 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten
Hmmm
Population of Canada 35.6 Million
Population of Australia 23.13 Million
Population of France 66.03 Million
Population of Germany 80.63 Million
Population of Japan 127.3 Million
Population of Switzerland 8.08 Million
Population of UK 63.1 Million
Population of Norway 5.08 Million
Population of the US 316.1 Million...
I have no Idea why a country with 9x, 13x, 5x, 4x, 2.5x, 39.5x, 5x or 63x The amount of people....why on earth would it cost more... to care for that influx of people...
I mean NEXT your going to ask why 2+4 is greater then 2+2...
If the spending remained the same the costs for the following country with the same amount of people would be...
Canada $ 49,400
Australia $29,700
France $18,000
Germany 14,400
Japan 6,750
Switzerland 173,800
UK 15,000
Norway 315,000
Yeah, It has everything to do with Socialized medicine and nothing to do with population at all
I mean a country with 63 times more elderly people, wouldnt be a drain on the system... Nope nope nope....


The graph was "per capita," so it wasn't just total spending, but total spending per person, as others have already stated. Another part of this problem (high per capita spending) isn't shown by this graph, but it's that nearly half of the per capita spending is public (taxpayer) dollars for "socialized" care (Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare, VA, CHIP, etc.). So, not only are we spending twice as much as most other industrialized nations, but we're already spending as much from the public till as those other countries, and that only covers mostly the elderly and poor.


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What I support:

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  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 306
RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 4:14:57 AM   
bounty44


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Status: offline 		i am curious by what metric is the usa having "lower quality healthcare for its $, than those countries with 'socialised healthcare' determined?

im also pretty skeptical of this: "It is interesting to note that, as far as I can tell, irrespective of their location on the left-right political spectrum, all of the people posting here residing in countries that have universal health care systems (aka socialised healthcare) are enthusiastic supporters of the system"...if that is indeed true, why are so many people coming to the usa for treatments they cannot get, or have to wait excessively long for, or expertise they cannot find in the countries they left?

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 12/4/2014 4:16:19 AM >

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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 4:55:31 AM   
Lucylastic


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Profile   Post #: 308
RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 6:48:43 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

i am curious by what metric is the usa having "lower quality healthcare for its $, than those countries with 'socialised healthcare' determined?

im also pretty skeptical of this: "It is interesting to note that, as far as I can tell, irrespective of their location on the left-right political spectrum, all of the people posting here residing in countries that have universal health care systems (aka socialised healthcare) are enthusiastic supporters of the system"...if that is indeed true, why are so many people coming to the usa for treatments they cannot get, or have to wait excessively long for, or expertise they cannot find in the countries they left?


I've certainly don't know an English or French person who has been to America for medical treatment; I haven't heard or read about anyone here doing that either. Do you have some statistics ?



An estimated 6 million Americans are traveling each year to such countries as India, Costa Rica, Mexico and Thailand in search of less-expensive treatments for simple and complex procedures. Even France and Belgium tend to be cheaper than the United States.

“People are going abroad for necessary medical treatments such as knee and hip replacements and cardiac procedures,” said Devon Herrick, senior fellow with the National Center for Policy Analysis, in Dallas. “And in many countries, especially places like India, the quality is very high and the price can be up to 80 percent less expensive.”

And that often includes the airline ticket.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4751631/mpage_16/tm.htm


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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 6:56:17 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

I just pointed out that rice wasn't the root of the problem, something else was. Ergo: her posit is debunked.

You do realise Arsenic is like, serious poison right???? So considering the amount of rice Asians eat, alot of them should be dropping dead like flies right now. Or having serious high stats of health problems related to Arsenic poisoning, but there is none, despite such a long history of eating truckloads of rice.
I mean, especially poor people. My mom was dirt poor and had to work as child labour since 5 yr old, and she and her family, practically just grew up on eating just plain boil white rice for every single meal until they grew up and able to get better job and better quality of life. My grandpa died at 89 from lung cancer, and that's from smoking 2 lighters a day since 13 yr old. And my grandma is probably gonna live up to 100 as she's 85 with no known diseases, but still chugging away on the rice. That's eating nothing but rice rice rice. My family has such good history of longevity, I am afraid I will live too long. Maybe I should eat more rice in hope I die of arsenic poisoning.



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/4/2014 7:04:24 AM >

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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 7:09:00 AM   
Greta75


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Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		I got to say, it's like living in two universe, countries who have lived with universal health care and benefited from it. I don't consider that we have universal heath care but we got some kind of compromise and hybrid in between. Although, I've always been pro-universal health care, just that, nobody want to hear about their taxes increasing to fund this completely. We don't have free healthcare.

And the ones who are without, who really believes universal healthcare cannot work, despite it working out fine in so many other countries.

The crazy thing, US tax is ridiculously high. If that can't pay for universal healthcare, then WTF are the people paying high taxes for? I mean their government tax them on everything!! Even investment returns, which is ridiculous. There would be riot in our country if our government wants to earn money from our investments.

And I feel kinda sorry for US in a way, because they seem to be expected to be responsible for the world's problem that their taxpayers are funding majority of the costs of wars in other countries instead of using that money to take care of their own citizens and make sure everybody can afford good quality healthcare without ending up in debt.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/4/2014 7:13:28 AM >

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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 8:25:26 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
The crazy thing, US tax is ridiculously high. If that can't pay for universal healthcare, then WTF are the people paying high taxes for? I mean their government tax them on everything!! Even investment returns, which is ridiculous. There would be riot in our country if our government wants to earn money from our investments.



well US taxes are pretty low for european standards...

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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 8:28:44 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
well US taxes are pretty low for european standards...

I feel it's quite similiar, considering ppl earning above 500k pays 40%, and people barely earning a single cent at 10k still gotta contribute 15%. And people earning below 10k gotta contribute 10%? Sheesh!
European tax may be just slightly more than them, but for some European countries where education and healthcare is "free", it makes complete sense, but our taxes is half of what American pays and we don't have free education or healthcare, like the US.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/4/2014 8:31:16 AM >

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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 8:43:27 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
The crazy thing, US tax is ridiculously high. If that can't pay for universal healthcare, then WTF are the people paying high taxes for? I mean their government tax them on everything!! Even investment returns, which is ridiculous. There would be riot in our country if our government wants to earn money from our investments.



well US taxes are pretty low for european standards...

Actually, that's not true eulero.

North American tax rates are, on average, higher than the EU for personal tax and corporation tax.

Corporation tax
North America: 33.25
Europe: 19.68

Personal tax
North America: 34.3
Europe: 32.43

Source: http://www.kpmg.com/global/en/services/tax/tax-tools-and-resources/pages/corporate-tax-rates-table.aspx
http://www.kpmg.com/global/en/services/tax/tax-tools-and-resources/pages/individual-income-tax-rates-table.aspx


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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 9:05:19 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Yes, but so many outs that most corporations pay very little in tax. Real average being around 12% as I remember.



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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 9:12:59 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yes, but so many outs that most corporations pay very little in tax. Real average being around 12% as I remember.



These were figures as an average rate payable (2014).
How much they managed to squirrel away before paying it is another ball of wax.

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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 11:17:40 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
The crazy thing, US tax is ridiculously high. If that can't pay for universal healthcare, then WTF are the people paying high taxes for? I mean their government tax them on everything!! Even investment returns, which is ridiculous. There would be riot in our country if our government wants to earn money from our investments.



well US taxes are pretty low for european standards...

Actually, that's not true eulero.

North American tax rates are, on average, higher than the EU for personal tax and corporation tax.

Corporation tax
North America: 33.25
Europe: 19.68

Personal tax
North America: 34.3
Europe: 32.43

Source: http://www.kpmg.com/global/en/services/tax/tax-tools-and-resources/pages/corporate-tax-rates-table.aspx
http://www.kpmg.com/global/en/services/tax/tax-tools-and-resources/pages/individual-income-tax-rates-table.aspx



sorry I did the same mistake of generalization, this makes me hate my actual governament much more.

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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 11:43:18 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


North American tax rates are, on average, higher than the EU for personal tax and corporation tax.
Corporation tax
North America: 33.25
Europe: 19.68



Clicked the link and can't get in.

Would like to see some more details on this because I'm surprised.


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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 11:51:10 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		From the link NG
The US
The corporate income tax rate is approximately 40%. The marginal federal corporate income tax rate on the highest income bracket of corporations (currently above USD 18,333,333) is 35%. State and local governments may also impose income taxes ranging from 0% to 12%, the top marginal rates averaging approximately 7.5%. A corporation may deduct its state and local income tax expense when computing its federal taxable income, generally resulting in a net effective rate of approximately 40%. The effective rate may vary significantly depending on the locality in which a corporation conducts business. The United States also has a parallel alternative minimum tax (AMT) system, which is generally characterized by a lower tax rate (20%) but a broader tax base.

The UK

The corporate tax rate is 21%. The UK government has announced a staged reduction in the main rate of corporation tax. From 1 April 2012 the main rate of corporation tax was reduced from 26% to 24%, from 1 April 2013 it was reduced to 23%, from 1 April 2014 it was reduced to 21% and from 1 April 2015 it will be reduced to 20%. A small companies rate applies until 1 April 2015 to companies with taxable profits of up to GBP 300,000 with marginal relief up to GBP 1.5 million. The current small companies rate of 20% has been in place since 1 April 2011. Companies with taxable profits of GBP 1.5 million or more pay tax at the main rate. All these thresholds are reduced for accounting periods of less than 12 months and if there are associated companies. Bermuda, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Isle of Man, and Jersey are dependent territories or crown dependencies of the United Kingdom, but have their own tax systems.

EU Average from 2007
EU average 24.83 23.97 23.17 23.11 22.93 22.7 22.51 22.75 21.34

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RE: US Health Care Costs - 12/4/2014 11:59:04 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Again, our nominal tax rates are meaningless. For example, they get to write off lobbyists by example.

Do you have heavy lobbying costs in the UK and are they deductible from your income?

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