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GotSteel -> hazing new posters (12/2/2014 7:52:01 PM)
So just in case somebody hasn't heard my spiel by now I'm often horrified by the way new posters are treated around here. Upon stating this in the past I've received the response that usually the new poster does something to instigate the responses and I think that's true. Sometimes it's the case that the poster has an uncommon kink that doesn't fit in around here, but should we really be throwing rocks over that, seems to me an awful lot like we're living in a glass house on this one. Sometimes the poster stumbles onto a hotbutton topic, but really how can we reasonably expect someone new to know where all the mines are buried? Sometimes it's that the poster makes some spelling mistakes or doesn't express themselves well. Thing is expressing oneself on a forum is a skill and we're talking about posters who are new. It's a very rare person who's perfect at well just about anything their first time. Don't get me wrong, there are work arounds to these problems: learning to post elsewhere/a substantial amount of lurking. But isn't that setting an awfully high bar to be allowed to post here without getting heckled off the site? I mean we're basically asking new posters to hit the ground running in the middle of a mine field, is it at all surprising that has a tendency of not working out very well! About this time in my argument someone's apt to make a comment about this is just how it is. Thing is that's not actually true, I can point to examples both in meat space and on fet of communities who are night and day different, think about it for a second, can't all of you do the same?

camille65 -> RE: hazing new posters (12/2/2014 7:56:10 PM)
It has gone on since before I joined, I lurked for quite a long time and just read the forums before making an account. Maybe because I was gone from here for awhile, but it actually seems friendlier to me than it was a few years ago. I don't like when a newbie gets jumped on for a fairly innocuous post, and most of the time I don't really get why it is happening. Sure a HNG type situation is obvious but so much of the time it just seems like someone is asking a basic question.

shiftyw -> RE: hazing new posters (12/2/2014 8:07:13 PM)
Someone here, when I was new and feeling out the waters told me (and maybe it was red, maybe it was Oside) "Its not so much about what you ask, but how you ask it..." and I think that's what happens here. I have issues with advice not being well received, in all walks of life. If I tell you "In my experience, zebras are black with white stripes" and you say "Well...that wasn't my question- I asked are zebras white with black stripes, cause mine is, so thats how it must be for everyone!"- and you're going to start arguing with me when I took time to calmly explain my point of view, snark free- imma sharpen my claws cause its just rude, ANYTIME to not take advice because that advice isn't convenient to you. If you come into a room of strangers, nearly anywhere- and say "ALL I WANT IS A WOMAN TO DROWNED ME IN HER BLOOD!!!!! WHY CAN'T I FIND THAT!?" Chances are we're going to tell you we all want something, stop living in fantasy, and get realistic. Cause simply, thats what you need to do. Personally- I want to get gang banged by several strangers at once and passed around like beer- is that really a realistic fantasy for me? Do I really not care about my own health and safety that much that its "all I want"...do you not think folks would say..."Here's why thats a bad idea- aim for something more realistic" That isn't bashing my kink- just stating the general nature of it. Not like two months ago we had a male dom who wanted to live in a house of lesbo's and be there toilet and live in their shit all the time. I'm all good if you're into toilet and scat- but I'm going to tell you- your hopes of all that are unrealistic and educate you on the dangers of that (admittedly in that case- I would be snarky- cause OBVIOUSLY that shit (pun intended) isn't safe, healthy, and you have a death wish and its likely no one is going to help you achieve it). I also think- sometimes people post those things to get profile hits and messages- TOS states you aren't supposed to place a personal ad- and some of these things are thinly veiled as such. Many a new poster- who I greet in intro's- I never see again. I ask- how to suggest we phrase advice, the social structure here, and "be nice"? I seriously am pretty nice, I think, on newbie threads- unless or until they get all "BUT THAT ADVICE ISN'T WHAT I WANT TO HEAR"- cause that to me, is irritating. What do you suggest we say if they say that? ^Thats a for real question- when I read it back it has a "tone" and I don't really want it to...

kdsub -> RE: hazing new posters (12/2/2014 8:12:30 PM)
I don’t believe it is how it is…but it is who they are. Otherwise I am no different now than years ago when I first came to the site. I react the same now as then. From day one if attacked I attack back… I do not need anyone to hold my hand and they should not expect it either. We are all grown and if visiting sites like this then we should be able to handle it. If you say something stupid, as I do often, expect to be called on it…adapt or leave. We know who the assholes are and so will they if they stay here long enough. This is not a site for the weak of mind or thin skin…if they are looking for cordial conversation they will find little here. Butch

RedMagic1 -> RE: hazing new posters (12/2/2014 8:13:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel So just in case somebody hasn't heard my spiel by now I'm often horrified by the way new posters are treated around here. Upon stating this in the past I've received the response that usually the new poster does something to instigate the responses and I think that's true. Sometimes it's the case that the poster has an uncommon kink that doesn't fit in around here, but should we really be throwing rocks over that, seems to me an awful lot like we're living in a glass house on this one. Sometimes the poster stumbles onto a hotbutton topic, but really how can we reasonably expect someone new to know where all the mines are buried? Sometimes it's that the poster makes some spelling mistakes or doesn't express themselves well. Thing is expressing oneself on a forum is a skill and we're talking about posters who are new. It's a very rare person who's perfect at well just about anything their first time. Don't get me wrong, there are work arounds to these problems: learning to post elsewhere/a substantial amount of lurking. But isn't that setting an awfully high bar to be allowed to post here without getting heckled off the site? I mean we're basically asking new posters to hit the ground running in the middle of a mine field, is it at all surprising that has a tendency of not working out very well! About this time in my argument someone's apt to make a comment about this is just how it is. Thing is that's not actually true, I can point to examples both in meat space and on fet of communities who are night and day different, think about it for a second, can't all of you do the same? Thoughts: I tend to respond directly to the OP with a direct and respectful answer, or I don't respond at all. I usually ignore drama, or only refer to it obliquely. Hopefully someone finds it helpful, and sometimes it improves the tone of the thread. You're probably familiar with Rule 34 of the Internet, that if something exists, there is porn of it. Do you know Rule 33? It is: "Lurk Moar -- it's never enough." Anyone who considers a chunk of cyber they don't own as their "neighborhood" is not primarily here to help a new OP. People who are dependent on cyber for neighborly interaction will always have a circle the wagons mentality. In their eyes, not everyone new should be allowed to move in -- otherwise there goes the neighborhood. Perhaps unlike you, I think the board plays a useful function in that respect. Most human beings have a need to desire, and to be desired. This place provides a venue for lonely men to flirt with women who might not get that same level of attention in vanilla land. It also provides an opportunity to ask and answer questions, but that isn't collarchat's only value. Mod3 was almost certainly alluding to the fact that this board is gamed on a regular basis, and new complaining posters are often old obnoxious motherfuckers in disguise. I see post quality improving, relative to a few months ago. That's why I decided to get more active, myself. And yes, the personal motto of some posters appears to be: The important thing is that you found a way to feel superior to the OP.

DaddySatyr -> RE: hazing new posters (12/2/2014 8:31:19 PM)
I find this amusing and ironic, but what the hell? I'll play. I made mention of this basic idea about six weeks ago, when a thread took a temporary detour. I think there has been marked improvement in the over-all tone of these boards and I couldn't be more pleased about it. For the first time, in a long time, I haven't been thinking about (or posting about) the clique that was running this place into the ground (although, I believe we're witnesses to the neo-natal stage of a new one, perhaps) or the seeming deference they were paid by the moderation staff. All-in-all, I think over the last seven or eight months, this place has become a much less hostile environment and I commend the new moderation staff for being a good portion of the reason for this. Michael

RedMagic1 -> RE: hazing new posters (12/2/2014 8:38:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I think there has been marked improvement in the over-all tone of these boards and I couldn't be more pleased about it. I agree. I believe it's due to the fact that a lot of people who thought this place was "theirs" learned harshly that they were wrong. So there is less territorialism now. The downside was that a lot of posters with the most real-life experience left, so there are fewer sensible suggestions now. More "I feel that this will work," and not enough, "When I was facing the situation you're describing I tried this, and learned the following."

shiftyw -> RE: hazing new posters (12/2/2014 8:58:00 PM)
"I just want to say I don't think we have a clique problem on this board and some of us are just victims in the situation..." (for the record thats a joke from Mean Girls...back off lynch mob). Since I participate in what I think you are all talking about as "clique like behavior"- and I know it, and I'm not really sorry for it? and here's the because: I have people who I consider myself good friends with on this board. But I'm 900% open to bringing more people into the folds here. I try to greet a few people in intros a week- because of that. I wonder, if you aren't here to make "friends", thats fine, but if you have friends here- whats the problem with that? I mean...really if you're so egotistical to think that your sole purpose here is to be the almighty kink library with all the education giving powers- I mean- get over it. I'm a pretty soft bottom, and I never ever claim to be some great fountain of BDSM knowledge- I explain my experience or views to newbies if I feel like it or feel it relates...and then I post on other threads, mostly in other sections- with the bullshitting and the joking. As someone who was never accepted well at a munch and feels uncomfortable and triggered occasionally in public play- I rarely find suggesting "getting into your community" as a choice- but for me- it was actually a good way to find out OTHER groups- with my particular kinks in mind. Plus, now, not living in NJ. There is literally no scene up here... I really think most of my "clique" ( [8\|] ) tries to do that also- although I don't feel I can confidently speak for all of them.

DaddySatyr -> RE: hazing new posters (12/2/2014 9:00:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 The downside was that a lot of posters with the most real-life experience left, so there are fewer sensible suggestions now. More "I feel that this will work," and not enough, "When I was facing the situation you're describing I tried this, and learned the following." I don't know if I agree with that, entirely. I think that a few of the posters were very experienced and knowledgeable but I think that kind of fed into the clique behavior and (a bit of) the one-twue-wayism that can ensue from that. I think we still have a good number of people that are knowledgeable and they seem to be a bit more tolerant of the opinions of others. I think that's part of the reason for the lessened animosity, here. I also believe that the neutralization that has occurred has encouraged some of the "lurkers" (whom I find to be quite intelligent and balanced) to finally come out of the woodwork with the threat of a feeding frenzy having been greatly reduced. Michael

starkem -> RE: hazing new posters (12/2/2014 9:08:42 PM)
I can see your point GotSteel. The responders have given such eloquent answers to why they act or react in a manner that to the unusual first timer, and some resident posters, might seem rude and capricious. However, I notice that the usual suspects have not shown up? I kid! Keep your sense of humor people. People tend to justify their behavior, and have the right to do so. More to your point, however, this is a site that has potential to be teeming with a buzz of enthusiasm for new posters and more participation. While such behaviors are justifiable by others, they are not conducive to an end goal of more participants. Some here seem to want things to stay just as they are nicely conditioned. If I were not drunk most of the times I read some of the responses here, initially, I guess i too would be shark bait, and would be quick and unsuspecting work, withdrawn and dismissed. "we don't want your kinky and sex desperation kind here.". I see where the novice that we are would trivialize their serious discussions and we would be accused of trolling. I want this place to be busy and thereby, hopefully, more perspective injected into what seems to be restrictive an univiting. I had stupid questions and comments on Fet Life. I find it is not the site perse; it is the very narrowmindedness of the views expressed that have been reported as absolute truth with a misnomer of "my experience," "my opinion" and "my friends" as a precursor. It's one thing to not like someone's fantasy, but quite another to say deal with it or piss off. People will not return for that abuse. Some people may unwittingly want it that way. They remain top dog and you go home with your tail between your legs. What's wrong with that? I am not above this reproach myself. I guess as I get used to the melee, I will feel the vampires bite. I will unduly be accusing people of the very things to which I have accustomed my adjustment. What I hope for: I hope newbies reading this will be encouraged to stay. People hear actually have a lot more in common than their defensive stance suggests. I can actually talk to people now rather than being talked at. Pick and choose your battles and keep a first aid kit readily available and you won't be bothered so much. You might even find a commradery unsuspectingly.

Gauge -> RE: hazing new posters (12/2/2014 9:42:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel So just in case somebody hasn't heard my spiel by now I have, and it is tired. quote: I'm often horrified by the way new posters are treated around here. Good. I am too sometimes. Other times I am able to see through the bullshit that some folks post just to shit-stir. quote: Upon stating this in the past I've received the response that usually the new poster does something to instigate the responses and I think that's true. If it is true, why are we having this discussion? quote: Sometimes it's the case that the poster has an uncommon kink that doesn't fit in around here, but should we really be throwing rocks over that, seems to me an awful lot like we're living in a glass house on this one. Mostly those folks are given the benefit of a doubt. A great deal of those threads go South because the poster gets defensive or after being told by numerous posters that what he wants is dangerous or otherwise impractical, they go on to try to make their fantasy fit. The one thread that I can think of was the guy with the toilet slave idea where he could retire into a coffin filled with feces. The community tried, it went to hell after a few pages because what the man wanted would have killed him in short order and he kept trying. quote: Sometimes the poster stumbles onto a hotbutton topic, but really how can we reasonably expect someone new to know where all the mines are buried? Define "hotbutton" and give examples. quote: Sometimes it's that the poster makes some spelling mistakes or doesn't express themselves well. Thing is expressing oneself on a forum is a skill and we're talking about posters who are new. It's a very rare person who's perfect at well just about anything their first time. That's not exclusive to this site, that is the Internet... it happens all the time. Doesn't make it right, it just happens. For me, I never make fun of those people... I try to understand them. quote: Don't get me wrong, there are work arounds to these problems: learning to post elsewhere/a substantial amount of lurking. But isn't that setting an awfully high bar to be allowed to post here without getting heckled off the site? Since you dodged my question earlier on the other thread, I will ask it again: Please explain to me why some posters that the community does embrace, never return? Is there a fair amount of heckling that happens? Occasionally... mostly with the "Frauds and phonies" threads because it is fucking tiresome to hear it. Most of those people couldn't find their ass with both hands let alone figure out that not everyone on the Internet is real... they get what is coming to them... a gasp of shock, a stern warning, and a badgering for being ridiculous enough to not expect fake people. quote: I mean we're basically asking new posters to hit the ground running in the middle of a mine field, is it at all surprising that has a tendency of not working out very well! But isn't that what happens with every forum on the Internet? New people don't know where the minefields are? This community cannot be held to a higher standard just because you say so. quote: About this time in my argument someone's apt to make a comment about this is just how it is. No, I did that in the beginning. quote: Thing is that's not actually true Some communities are different. Not every board is allowed to act like adults, we are. We can use adult language, we can get into heated disagreements and we even have a section that the mods allow us to run with scissors if we wish to... so, it is true for this community... and yet, your indictment of this community in particular is nauseatingly constant. quote: I can point to examples both in meat space and on fet of communities who are night and day different Real life is different than the Internet. There are a lot of people that would say things online that they wouldn't say face to face. I am not one of those people, I will talk just like I do here to people in real life. I'm consistent. Oh, and well done to once again point to Fetlife and say they do it so much better than here. That shit is old. quote: think about it for a second, can't all of you do the same? Act like everyone else? Act like you want us to? Seriously? You sound like you are pining for a day when this board was thriving... I remember this site when it first opened, a thriving community with so many people that the threads were swarming with responses. Whatever happened here to cull the community is over and done with. The community is rebuilding slowly... perhaps not to your standards, but it has seen new posters who have stayed and gotten active. It is going to take time, and bitching that the community is not welcoming enough is counterproductive to the community moving forward from that time. We welcome those that are seeking, and we respond in kind to idiocy. If you want the moderators on the boards to crack down, don't hold your breath. We have been told numerous times that this is an adult board and we are expected to act like adults. For the most part, we do. Obviously I disagree that it is as bad as you think it is. I am tired of your diatribe and wish you would simply realize that Rome is not burning. Will the community ever return to its heyday? Probably not like it was, but it sure has mounted a comeback. Bringing up the problems is fine, castigating the community like we are a bunch of insolent children is futile.

sexyred1 -> RE: hazing new posters (12/2/2014 11:09:17 PM)
I find the suggestion that people with "real life experience" have left the site and that there are no "sensible" replies to be arrogant and absurd. As shiftyw said, how intelligent or sensible do you need to be to reply to a guy who comes in with some outlandish fantasy? Empathetic replies are given where needed and if a good question is asked, it's answered. I don't feel people are being mean to new posters, in fact the tone of the boards is far less nasty than ever. Finally, I am intelligent and experienced enough in life and in kink to be able to give an opinion and also NOT to give one when I truly cannot relate on any level.

starkem -> RE: hazing new posters (12/2/2014 11:18:14 PM)
Oops, I think I just bit my first victim. The blood of the clique is in me now. lol. I kid, but Iam feeling kinda salty.

sexyred1 -> RE: hazing new posters (12/2/2014 11:19:35 PM)
You have now joined the dark side....

IrishMist -> RE: hazing new posters (12/2/2014 11:44:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 You have now joined the dark side.... But the darkside has no cookies [:o] To the OP: I don't 'haze' new posters, I simply call bullshit, bullshit. 99% of these so called new posters are wankers who have shit for brains. It's not a crime to point out that they are wankers with shit for brains. Nor is it hazing. It's simply calling bullshit, bullshit. For fucks sake, quit whining about all the poor wittle posters who are so badly attacked by what you call 'the clique'. If being honest means that I am a part of that 'clique'...then hooray...I am quite happy to remain a part of it.

starkem -> RE: hazing new posters (12/3/2014 12:55:50 AM)
There was a lawyer that won a court case on the absurdity of this phrase: quit whining, there he goes again! Here it what clique sounds like and do to to people that wish to engage, but are inundated by your calling bullshit or monotony. Wait for it... [Gaspy Voice]: you are designated species 116. We are the Borg. Lower your shields and disengage your weapons. You will be assimilated (because we detect bullshit 99% of the time). Your advancement and technologies will be added to our own! Resistance is futile! And to that! We will counter thatvbullshit! Detecting with a respondent accusation of our own! And there will be no cookies in our response - except, we are arming torpedoes 1 and 2. I am like Captain Janeway or Picard. You are engaging Hue Mons! Red Alert! Shields up! All ensens to your battle stations. You will not usurp your encounter with us in the same way that you have assimilated others. And , as for Q, he will be dealt with once we counter this problem of undue hazing. The so-called newbies have reversed your assimulation to see how you feel now. Of course their will be some gallantry and nobility to your cause of exclusion that will fight to very end. We call superior fire power! In military science superior fire power rules the day and we call out the Borg on their ignobility.

ExiledTyrant -> RE: hazing new posters (12/3/2014 4:01:41 AM)
~FR "hazing new posters" [img]https://img1.etsystatic.com/000/0/5943963/il_340x270.334742381.jpg[/img] Ohhhh... "pretentious hypocrisy." http://www.collarchat.com/m_4750109/mpage_2/tm.htm

NookieNotes -> RE: hazing new posters (12/3/2014 4:32:20 AM)
~FR~ (Lookee! I'm using it! LOL!) For what it's worth, I'm new here. I haven't really experienced this hazing you are speaking of. In fact, I've felt pretty welcomed (privately and publicly). Of course, it could be that my uber-awesomeness is so utterly unmissable that I end up being the one special snowflake who does not get hazed when throwing myself into the fray. Or it could be that I have not been hazed yet (Mmmm. Pretty please?) Or, it could be that in my ignorance of generic human behavior, I have simply missed all the subtle cues, and ya'll bitches need to step up your game. Or, it could be that I just don't care about cliques, because I appreciate people who are selective about who they welcome into their meat-life and online lives with open arms. Or, it could be that I am just a real, authentic human, and I am being responded to as such. But, in my experience, this has been a wonderful ride so far. YMMV.

ExiledTyrant -> RE: hazing new posters (12/3/2014 4:36:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes ~FR~ (Lookee! I'm using it! LOL!) For what it's worth, I'm new here. I haven't really experienced this hazing you are speaking of. In fact, I've felt pretty welcomed (privately and publicly). Of course, it could be that my uber-awesomeness is so utterly unmissable that I end up being the one special snowflake who does not get hazed when throwing myself into the fray. Or it could be that I have not been hazed yet (Mmmm. Pretty please?) Or, it could be that in my ignorance of generic human behavior, I have simply missed all the subtle cues, and ya'll bitches need to step up your game. Or, it could be that I just don't care about cliques, because I appreciate people who are selective about who they welcome into their meat-life and online lives with open arms. Or, it could be that I am just a real, authentic human, and I am being responded to as such. But, in my experience, this has been a wonderful ride so far. YMMV. It's about time you learned how to use the FR you friggen multislacking uber strumpet from HELL! Now, go put on your SuperStrumpet attire... and post pics... without pics you are FAKE FAKE FAKE and everyone will know it. Jus sayin P.S. I think your are really grabbing ahold of the humiliation thing.

MissKittyDeVine -> RE: hazing new posters (12/3/2014 7:28:18 AM)
IMO the OP on the other thread was asking a valid question. Why indeed do so many people set themselves up for failure by messaging someone for whom they clearly do not fulfil essential criteria?

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