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RE: Progressive Education - 2/25/2015 6:22:41 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

But the overall issue is immigration. When you say that the issue is "illegal aliens," all you're really talking about is a piece of paper. The aforementioned political cartoon contained the phrase "path to citizenship," which involves changing that all important piece of paper to make "illegal" into "legal." But these are just legal technicalities, but once that's out of the way, then the underlying issue is still immigration. That's what the argument is about. That's why it's such a hot button issue. Pretending that the issue is just about not filling out their paperwork properly won't fly with me.

And the only difference between a citizen and a non-citizen is a piece of paper,

True enough.

So do you think we should abandon the idea of citizenship and things it brings like being able to vote.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 2/25/2015 6:23:43 PM >

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/25/2015 7:00:16 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

But the overall issue is immigration. When you say that the issue is "illegal aliens," all you're really talking about is a piece of paper. The aforementioned political cartoon contained the phrase "path to citizenship," which involves changing that all important piece of paper to make "illegal" into "legal." But these are just legal technicalities, but once that's out of the way, then the underlying issue is still immigration. That's what the argument is about. That's why it's such a hot button issue. Pretending that the issue is just about not filling out their paperwork properly won't fly with me.

And the only difference between a citizen and a non-citizen is a piece of paper,

True enough.

quote:

and the difference between being acquitted and convicted is a piece of paper,

Not precisely, since being acquitted or convicted would be the result of evidence and a trial which presumably exist independent of and before the piece of paper was actually written.

quote:

the difference between a prescription and abuse of pain killers is a piece of paper,

This is false, since abuse of pain killers could happen just as easily with a prescription. Drug abuse is a psychological/physiological condition which can occur independent of any piece of paper. It's the drug itself that's relevant, not the piece of paper.

quote:

the difference between legal concealed carry and illegal concealed carry is, you got it , a piece of paper.

Yes, but who would care about the piece of paper if it wasn't referring to a gun? What would be the major issue in this example? The piece of paper or the actual gun?

quote:

So do we pretend that all those are the same because the only difference is a piece of paper? Of course the problem is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, to pretend otherwise is to ignore reality.

The issue raised by the political cartoon in the OP had to do with the laws related to immigration and citizenship. So, it would seem that you agree with me that the hot button issue at hand is immigration, which is what the piece of paper in question relates to.

You really don't get it do you.
In each case there are legal actions preceding the mere piece of paper.
You know like going through proper channels to come into the country.
And the cartoon was, though you clearly don't get it, about Obama trying to let illegals become citizens without going through the proper channels. Don't you think this is grossly unfair to those who are trying to do it the right way?

Except as usual, that's not at all what it is. It is letting the parents stay that have children born here and thus...are already citizens.

What Obama exec, order does is prevent the expulsion (deportation) of the parents and there are limits. Most of them are trying to do it...'the right way.' The right wants to kick them ALL out.

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/25/2015 7:09:26 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

But the overall issue is immigration. When you say that the issue is "illegal aliens," all you're really talking about is a piece of paper. The aforementioned political cartoon contained the phrase "path to citizenship," which involves changing that all important piece of paper to make "illegal" into "legal." But these are just legal technicalities, but once that's out of the way, then the underlying issue is still immigration. That's what the argument is about. That's why it's such a hot button issue. Pretending that the issue is just about not filling out their paperwork properly won't fly with me.

And the only difference between a citizen and a non-citizen is a piece of paper,

True enough.

quote:

and the difference between being acquitted and convicted is a piece of paper,

Not precisely, since being acquitted or convicted would be the result of evidence and a trial which presumably exist independent of and before the piece of paper was actually written.

quote:

the difference between a prescription and abuse of pain killers is a piece of paper,

This is false, since abuse of pain killers could happen just as easily with a prescription. Drug abuse is a psychological/physiological condition which can occur independent of any piece of paper. It's the drug itself that's relevant, not the piece of paper.

quote:

the difference between legal concealed carry and illegal concealed carry is, you got it , a piece of paper.

Yes, but who would care about the piece of paper if it wasn't referring to a gun? What would be the major issue in this example? The piece of paper or the actual gun?

quote:

So do we pretend that all those are the same because the only difference is a piece of paper? Of course the problem is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, to pretend otherwise is to ignore reality.

The issue raised by the political cartoon in the OP had to do with the laws related to immigration and citizenship. So, it would seem that you agree with me that the hot button issue at hand is immigration, which is what the piece of paper in question relates to.

You really don't get it do you.
In each case there are legal actions preceding the mere piece of paper.
You know like going through proper channels to come into the country.
And the cartoon was, though you clearly don't get it, about Obama trying to let illegals become citizens without going through the proper channels. Don't you think this is grossly unfair to those who are trying to do it the right way?

Except as usual, that's not at all what it is. It is letting the parents stay that have children born here and thus...are already citizens.

What Obama exec, order does is prevent the expulsion (deportation) of the parents and there are limits. Most of them are trying to do it...'the right way.' The right wants to kick them ALL out.

And the folks ahead of them? You know...the ones who have done it all in the legal manner...the ones qualified to come in under the number of slots available to LEGAL immigrants from a certain country? Should they just say "oh well...fuck it. Let us know when numbers for our country come into play again"?

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 2/25/2015 7:44:10 PM >

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/25/2015 7:15:18 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

But the overall issue is immigration. When you say that the issue is "illegal aliens," all you're really talking about is a piece of paper. The aforementioned political cartoon contained the phrase "path to citizenship," which involves changing that all important piece of paper to make "illegal" into "legal." But these are just legal technicalities, but once that's out of the way, then the underlying issue is still immigration. That's what the argument is about. That's why it's such a hot button issue. Pretending that the issue is just about not filling out their paperwork properly won't fly with me.

And the only difference between a citizen and a non-citizen is a piece of paper,

True enough.

quote:

and the difference between being acquitted and convicted is a piece of paper,

Not precisely, since being acquitted or convicted would be the result of evidence and a trial which presumably exist independent of and before the piece of paper was actually written.

quote:

the difference between a prescription and abuse of pain killers is a piece of paper,

This is false, since abuse of pain killers could happen just as easily with a prescription. Drug abuse is a psychological/physiological condition which can occur independent of any piece of paper. It's the drug itself that's relevant, not the piece of paper.

quote:

the difference between legal concealed carry and illegal concealed carry is, you got it , a piece of paper.

Yes, but who would care about the piece of paper if it wasn't referring to a gun? What would be the major issue in this example? The piece of paper or the actual gun?

quote:

So do we pretend that all those are the same because the only difference is a piece of paper? Of course the problem is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, to pretend otherwise is to ignore reality.

The issue raised by the political cartoon in the OP had to do with the laws related to immigration and citizenship. So, it would seem that you agree with me that the hot button issue at hand is immigration, which is what the piece of paper in question relates to.

You really don't get it do you.
In each case there are legal actions preceding the mere piece of paper.
You know like going through proper channels to come into the country.
And the cartoon was, though you clearly don't get it, about Obama trying to let illegals become citizens without going through the proper channels. Don't you think this is grossly unfair to those who are trying to do it the right way?

Except as usual, that's not at all what it is. It is letting the parents stay that have children born here and thus...are already citizens.

What Obama exec, order does is prevent the expulsion (deportation) of the parents and there are limits. Most of them are trying to do it...'the right way.' The right wants to kick them ALL out.

So you would ignore the law and give preference to those who come in illegally over those who do it right.
I think we should let them all stay, if the males of the appropriate age serve at least one hitch in the infantry it should gain citizenship for their families.

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 5:02:01 AM

bounty44

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conversation about the rightness/wrongness of present immigration policy aside for a moment, and on a thought back towards the homework assignment that started the thread:

I mentioned earlier about "nuance"---in this case, one of the major and essential components of the conversation is the separation of powers and the charge that Obama is overstepping executive authority---the assignment doesn't address that at all. again, its clear to me to make it seem "Obama/democrats/good and McConnell/repubilicans/bad"

I was thinking it about this way: suppose the cartoon was an illustration of Obama shredding the constitution and of mitch McConnell trying to put it back together. do we think liberals would be happy with that as a class assignment?

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 6:08:40 AM

Zonie63

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You really don't get it do you.

No, I do get it, but you're not understanding my points at all.

quote:

In each case there are legal actions preceding the mere piece of paper.

Then the issue would be the legal actions, not the piece of paper itself. The issue is what the piece of paper represents or refers to.

quote:

You know like going through proper channels to come into the country.

quote:

And the cartoon was, though you clearly don't get it, about Obama trying to let illegals become citizens without going through the proper channels. Don't you think this is grossly unfair to those who are trying to do it the right way?

Then this would indicate that the issue raised in the cartoon has to do with immigration, does it not? Kirata was trying to deflect that and pretend that the issue was something completely different, which I do not accept.

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 6:11:25 AM

Zonie63

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

This is false, since abuse of pain killers could happen just as easily with a prescription. Drug abuse is a psychological/physiological condition which can occur independent of any piece of paper. It's the drug itself that's relevant, not the piece of paper.

Except that one way you go to jail, the other you don't.

Yes, all because of a piece of paper. Strange society we live in, don't you think?

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 7:45:24 AM

cloudboy

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Wake up. It is 2015.

Immigration Enforcement Without Immigration Reform Has Been Failing for Decades

Since the last major legalization program for unauthorized immigrants in 1986, the federal government has spent an estimated $186.8 billion on immigration enforcement. Yet during that time, the unauthorized population has tripled in size to 11 million. This did not occur because $186.6 billion was not enough to get the job done. It occurred because this money was spent trying to enforce immigration laws that have consistently failed to match either the U.S. economy’s demand for workers or the natural desire of immigrants to be reunited with their families.

http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/fallacy-enforcement-first

------

The political cartoon is actually too tame. I think it should show ICE officials knocking on family doors at 5:00 AM in the morning to rip a mother or father out of the house to stick them behind bars in preparation for deportation. Instead of reform, you seem to want this to happen to millions of people at costs that would dwarf the $180B already spent.

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 7:47:25 AM

cloudboy

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Why are Republicans such BIG GOVERNMENT ASS HOLES? Consider:

The United States has created an enormous deportation machinery. The budget for border security and immigration enforcement in now $18 Billion dollars a year -- substantially more than the budget for all other federal law-enforcement agencies combined (the F.B.I., the D.E.A., the Secret Service, the U.S. Marshalls, and the A.T.F.).

The machinery exists, it has its political incentives, and because it targets are weak, its accountability is slight, its impunity is great.

--New Yorker P. 28. April 29, 2013

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 7:52:33 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

And back to progressive education:

From WFTV (an ABC affiliate...so NOT FOX)
http://m.wftv.com/news/news/local/controversial-islamic-history-lesson-hot-topic-sem/nkH3p/

Textbooks being considered for use:

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2014/09/15/proposed-texas-textbooks-are-full-of-progressive-bias-says-curriculum-accuracy-expert/

in reference to the breitbart link....

and those were only history texts in one state. so a couple of things come to mind. how many other states are/might be experiencing the same problem.

and it makes me wonder too---what they are reading in English classes....

Breitbart is ignorant slobbering. Not at all credible.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/jun/21/how-texas-inflicts-bad-textbooks-on-us/

Looks like Texas 'conservatives' fell down on the job, as usual, the let Ebola in the country, and now Sharia Law.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-11-07/news/we-1470_1_preferred-textbooks

And of course the Governor and Legislature of Florida is the crack 'Rick Scott, and other 'conservatives' and I suppose they were asleep at the education wheel, because it is not a priority with them, and they get what they pay for, I expect islamics work cheaper than mexicans, so there is your teachers.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 2/26/2015 8:08:12 AM >

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 8:52:16 AM

CreativeDominant

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So...a 4 year old article describing events up to 2008 and a 23 year old article to dispute an article written last year about events occurring last year?

The first article even notes that things are no longer done that way due to legislative changes...a fact amply demonstrated in the Breitbart article. The first article also notes the problem with 'California liberalism' and a "granola viewpoint" but seems to dismiss those pproblems rather quickly.

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 2/26/2015 8:58:14 AM >

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 9:09:53 AM

mnottertail

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You expect the 4 year old article is not of use because the climate has changed dramatically with the nutsackers in no child left behind, and their nutsacker founded western governors common core? What massive changes have occurred between the hallucinations about repealing Obamacare 55 times?

Prithee, who approves and orders the textbooks for the State of Florida?

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 2/26/2015 9:11:14 AM >

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 9:16:33 AM

bounty44

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im not sure why you are replying this to me...im not talking about immigration, im trying to steer the conversation back to the appropriateness or not of the homework assignment at the very top of the thread.

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 9:32:15 AM

mnottertail

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You were probably the last one to post before he made a 'quick reply' comment in general, or in answer to someone else. That happens a lot, and does not mean he replied to you, so quite often you have to read things in context of the thread of near posts and replies and ignore the (in reply to stuff).

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 9:43:51 AM

BamaD

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Not exactly the same issue, though, since many illegal immigrants do go through proper channels to enter the country, although if they overstay their visa or something like that, then the law would see them as "illegal." It's just like someone who lets their driver's license expire. Sure, it's technically a violation of the law, but the only thing that matters to me is whether they can drive safely or not. In that example, the primary issue of concern would be traffic safety, NOT the piece of paper - which is just an incidental component.

So Zonie the law is irrelevant as long as you get the results you want. The piece of paper shows that they did it legally. When they overstay they have violated proper procedure.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 9:45:04 AM

BamaD

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No, I do get it, but you're not understanding my points at all.

Yes I do understand your points, if the law doesn't do what you want ignore it.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 9:50:21 AM

BamaD

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Then this would indicate that the issue raised in the cartoon has to do with immigration, does it not? Kirata was trying to deflect that and pretend that the issue was something completely different, which I do not accept.

The cartoon, like you, wanted to pretend that the actual issue is immigration.
Conservatives favor LEGAL immigration but don't believe in open borders.
If they come in legally we don't have a problem with immigrants.
As Border said the cartoon was a distortion of the actual issue.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 9:51:54 AM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

This is false, since abuse of pain killers could happen just as easily with a prescription. Drug abuse is a psychological/physiological condition which can occur independent of any piece of paper. It's the drug itself that's relevant, not the piece of paper.

Except that one way you go to jail, the other you don't.

Yes, all because of a piece of paper. Strange society we live in, don't you think?

no
at least not for this reason

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 10:27:13 AM

Zonie63

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
So Zonie the law is irrelevant as long as you get the results you want. The piece of paper shows that they did it legally. When they overstay they have violated proper procedure.

I'm not saying the law is irrelevant. In fact, that's the matter under discussion here. I'm just looking at the overall effect on society and wondering if it would really matter all that much on a practical level if the law was changed. Are you seriously trying to convince me that the only thing upsetting you about illegal immigration is that someone "violated proper procedure"? Is that the reason why it's such a big issue of national debate?

When you talk about violating proper procedure, you say it as if you've got your nose stuck in a rule book, as if you neither know nor care why that "proper procedure" was put in place to begin with.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

No, I do get it, but you're not understanding my points at all.

Yes I do understand your points, if the law doesn't do what you want ignore it.

No, you've missed it entirely. This whole side discussion started up when I stated that immigration is a hot-button issue (in reference to the political cartoon used by a schoolteacher in a classroom lesson). Kirata countered this and said that the issue was not immigration but "illegal aliens." I disagreed with that.

I wasn't talking about what the law does or doesn't do, nor does it mean the law should be ignored. However, if the law doesn't work, is practically unenforceable, or doesn't suit the needs of society, then it may need to be reexamined and altered. As I see it, that's what the discussion is ultimately about.

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RE: Progressive Education - 2/26/2015 11:04:03 AM

Zonie63

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Then this would indicate that the issue raised in the cartoon has to do with immigration, does it not? Kirata was trying to deflect that and pretend that the issue was something completely different, which I do not accept.

The cartoon, like you, wanted to pretend that the actual issue is immigration.
Conservatives favor LEGAL immigration but don't believe in open borders.
If they come in legally we don't have a problem with immigrants.
As Border said the cartoon was a distortion of the actual issue.

The cartoon didn't refer to the border at all. The people in question referred to in the cartoon are those are already in the country, some have been here for many years. It's more a practical matter of what we should actually do, now that they're already here. Allowing them to become legal (which would give them that piece of paper) would not change the laws regarding the border or create open borders. I do recall that the conservatives were the biggest cheerleaders for NAFTA, so they have a somewhat split personality on the whole issue of "open borders." Conservatives are also heavily pro-business, and the business community has profited from employing/exploiting illegal immigrants. Making them legal would cause them to lose profits, so they're naturally against it.

You say the cartoon is a distortion of the "actual issue," but this is what I see as the "actual issue": In the United States today, we have somewhere in the neighborhood of 11-13 million real live human beings who are living here and working here - many have been here for years. While it's true that they "violated proper procedure," that doesn't change the actual reality that they're still here. Most are not violent, they're not terrorists or members of ISIS. Most of them are not even criminals at all, except for the dastardly and heinous crime of "violating proper procedure."

So, what do we do with these people? Do we enforce the law to the letter, round these people up, and send them packing? Of course, we can't do that, at least not en masse. Letting them all stay may not be the best option either. So, that leaves us with the middle choice of letting some stay and some not. That's the "actual issue" down to its very core, after we sift through all the paperwork and red tape. This is what it comes down, when it comes to actual brass tacks.

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