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RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/5/2015 7:08:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Zonie... the above is impossible if people vote...sorry there is no way around it. It was amazing to me at all the protests over the prosecutor yet months after the Brown incident he ran unopposed so was re-elected.

I agree with you completely on this point. It does seem curious that so many people don't vote, but then again, that's a problem hardly confined to Ferguson MO. It's the same problem on the national level. Strictly speaking, all those people complaining about "Big Gov" and "creeping socialism" don't have a leg to stand on, since We The People voted for it.

quote:

Now I believe the next election in Ferguson will be very different and if the city government was deemed to have fumbled the fallout from this tragedy they will not be in office.... BUT if they are it is the peoples fault and no one else ... certainly not the Police Department's.

Butch

The Police Department is just one agency of government. It's not the entire government, but it's very much a part of it.

The other part of it is that simply changing the municipal government in Ferguson probably won't really do all that much, since local governments don't really have that much power or independence. And even if it does change things in Ferguson, it's still a national-level problem affecting hundreds of communities across the country.

I also reject contrived myths that law enforcement is somehow divorced from politics and should therefore be viewed with more deference and respect than we would normally give to any other government agency or official. It's those kinds of myths which are far more worrisome and a more dangerous threat to our freedom than anything else.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/10/2015 8:14:24 AM

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this is something I don't think we've talked about, and is very likely to get very little air time/attention:

quote:

A new report from the Department of Justice says that the most credible witnesses of the Michael Brown shooting were unwilling to step forward to support Officer Darren Wilson’s actions. Six of the witnesses refused to counter the “Hands up, don’t shoot” narrative due to community pressure.

Many of the witnesses, who originally supported Wilson’s actions, later refused out of fear for their well-being. The witnesses cited signs posted around the community that read “Snitches Get Stitches.”

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/03/265774-department-justice-report-shows-witnesses-michael-brown-shooting-fear-stepping-forward-hands-dont-shoot/

(in reply to Zonie63)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/10/2015 3:53:43 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Zonie... the above is impossible if people vote...sorry there is no way around it. It was amazing to me at all the protests over the prosecutor yet months after the Brown incident he ran unopposed so was re-elected.

I agree with you completely on this point. It does seem curious that so many people don't vote, but then again, that's a problem hardly confined to Ferguson MO. It's the same problem on the national level. Strictly speaking, all those people complaining about "Big Gov" and "creeping socialism" don't have a leg to stand on, since We The People voted for it.

quote:

Now I believe the next election in Ferguson will be very different and if the city government was deemed to have fumbled the fallout from this tragedy they will not be in office.... BUT if they are it is the peoples fault and no one else ... certainly not the Police Department's.

Butch

The Police Department is just one agency of government. It's not the entire government, but it's very much a part of it.

The other part of it is that simply changing the municipal government in Ferguson probably won't really do all that much, since local governments don't really have that much power or independence. And even if it does change things in Ferguson, it's still a national-level problem affecting hundreds of communities across the country.

I also reject contrived myths that law enforcement is somehow divorced from politics and should therefore be viewed with more deference and respect than we would normally give to any other government agency or official. It's those kinds of myths which are far more worrisome and a more dangerous threat to our freedom than anything else.

Yes we do if we vote against the big government candidates. Or at least the more big government candidate. Thus have two legs to stand on.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Zonie63)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/11/2015 7:20:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I agree with you completely on this point. It does seem curious that so many people don't vote, but then again, that's a problem hardly confined to Ferguson MO. It's the same problem on the national level. Strictly speaking, all those people complaining about "Big Gov" and "creeping socialism" don't have a leg to stand on, since We The People voted for it.

Yes we do if we vote against the big government candidates. Or at least the more big government candidate. Thus have two legs to stand on.

If you vote for the candidate who runs on a platform of being against big government, and that candidate wins - yet turns out to not be so much against big government as he/she originally said, then it would still be your fault for voting for him/her.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/11/2015 7:23:14 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I agree with you completely on this point. It does seem curious that so many people don't vote, but then again, that's a problem hardly confined to Ferguson MO. It's the same problem on the national level. Strictly speaking, all those people complaining about "Big Gov" and "creeping socialism" don't have a leg to stand on, since We The People voted for it.

Yes we do if we vote against the big government candidates. Or at least the more big government candidate. Thus have two legs to stand on.

If you vote for the candidate who runs on a platform of being against big government, and that candidate wins - yet turns out to not be so much against big government as he/she originally said, then it would still be your fault for voting for him/her.

No, it is his fault for lying, unless you think I need to be a mind reader. Besides, I look at their records more than their promises.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Zonie63)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/11/2015 9:37:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I agree with you completely on this point. It does seem curious that so many people don't vote, but then again, that's a problem hardly confined to Ferguson MO. It's the same problem on the national level. Strictly speaking, all those people complaining about "Big Gov" and "creeping socialism" don't have a leg to stand on, since We The People voted for it.

Yes we do if we vote against the big government candidates. Or at least the more big government candidate. Thus have two legs to stand on.

If you vote for the candidate who runs on a platform of being against big government, and that candidate wins - yet turns out to not be so much against big government as he/she originally said, then it would still be your fault for voting for him/her.

No, it is his fault for lying, unless you think I need to be a mind reader. Besides, I look at their records more than their promises.

I'm sure you've probably heard the old saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." The voters have been fooled so many times, it's a damn shame all the way around.

I'm not directing this at you personally, Bama, since I don't really know you or know who you've actually voted for or why. I'm just saying in general. This would even go for both liberals and conservatives, when looking at what both factions generally say they want in terms of their political platform - compared to who they actually vote for and what they actually get.

It's this phenomenon which likely contributes to the voter apathy which Butch was referring to earlier. If the politicians are just going to lie and tell the people what they want to hear, along with way too many voters who keep falling for these lies - hook, line, and sinker - then some people might be inclined to say "Why bother?"

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/11/2015 10:13:25 AM

kdsub

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quote:

If the politicians are just going to lie and tell the people what they want to hear, along with way too many voters who keep falling for these lies - hook, line, and sinker - then some people might be inclined to say "Why bother?"

You are too jaded Zonie and are a victim I believe of the " If people don't think like me they are fools" syndrome.

Even with the influence of big business on both sides of congress politicians still follow the wishes of the voters... You just have to realize the majority, right now anyway, thinks different than you...and they just may be right on some issues.

When I say majority I mean the voting public not necessarily the majority of Americans. Those that vote, me included, are usually passionate about an issue or issues and the apathetic public will just have to go along with what the majorities of voters mandate through their votes.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Zonie63)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/11/2015 11:28:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

If the politicians are just going to lie and tell the people what they want to hear, along with way too many voters who keep falling for these lies - hook, line, and sinker - then some people might be inclined to say "Why bother?"

You are too jaded Zonie and are a victim I believe of the " If people don't think like me they are fools" syndrome.

Even with the influence of big business on both sides of congress politicians still follow the wishes of the voters... You just have to realize the majority, right now anyway, thinks different than you...and they just may be right on some issues.

There are some issues where my views may be in line with "the majority," while my views on other issues may not be. I don't think that really matters in the grand scheme of things, since all of that tends to balance out with time.

What does matter is that, if shit happens in our country, then We The People have to own it and take responsibility for it. That was the point you were making about the people of Ferguson and what happened in their community, but I see it more as a nationwide phenomenon.

And there are times when "the majority" is wrong. Such as the election of 1972. A few years later, as they were scraping the Nixon bumper stickers off their cars, a lot of Nixon voters claimed "they didn't know he was a crook." If they didn't know, they should've known. This "we didn't know" bullshit just doesn't fly with me, whether it comes from the majority or not.

Maybe I am too jaded, but I certainly don't believe that everyone should think like me. I've never believed that, as I actually enjoy intelligent disagreement and open debate.

quote:

When I say majority I mean the voting public not necessarily the majority of Americans. Those that vote, me included, are usually passionate about an issue or issues and the apathetic public will just have to go along with what the majorities of voters mandate through their votes.

Butch

Fair enough, and in most cases, my general inclination is to accept and abide by the will of the majority, even if it's something I don't agree with. As long as the majority truly believes in something, supports it, and wants to see it come to realization, then by all means. But if they get suckered by lies or support something they didn't adequately think through, then I see no reason why they can't be called on it. Even if they're "the majority," they don't get a pass if they fuck up or make a bad choice which brings consequences upon us all.

I never said that everyone has to agree with me or think like me. I can't imagine whatever gave you that impression. I also don't believe that people who don't think like me are fools. But if someone allows their voting choice to be influenced by a TV commercial and then later on claims "they didn't know," what can I say?

I consider voting to be a great responsibility, something that should not be taken lightly or treated like some kind of circus act. When we vote, we have to make a decision for our country like any President, Prime Minister, or King would have to make. If you were the King of a nation, you would have a great responsibility on your shoulders. When choosing your cabinet and other officials, you'd have to make sure that you really knew who it was that you were choosing. This is how voters should approach the electoral process.

I agree with you regarding the apathetic public and those who are unwilling to cast their vote, but that doesn't mean that those who do vote shouldn't be held accountable for their choices, even if the public has to abide by the will of the majority.

< Message edited by Zonie63 -- 3/11/2015 11:29:13 AM >

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/11/2015 11:36:54 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I agree with you completely on this point. It does seem curious that so many people don't vote, but then again, that's a problem hardly confined to Ferguson MO. It's the same problem on the national level. Strictly speaking, all those people complaining about "Big Gov" and "creeping socialism" don't have a leg to stand on, since We The People voted for it.

Yes we do if we vote against the big government candidates. Or at least the more big government candidate. Thus have two legs to stand on.

If you vote for the candidate who runs on a platform of being against big government, and that candidate wins - yet turns out to not be so much against big government as he/she originally said, then it would still be your fault for voting for him/her.

No, it is his fault for lying, unless you think I need to be a mind reader. Besides, I look at their records more than their promises.

I'm sure you've probably heard the old saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." The voters have been fooled so many times, it's a damn shame all the way around.

I'm not directing this at you personally, Bama, since I don't really know you or know who you've actually voted for or why. I'm just saying in general. This would even go for both liberals and conservatives, when looking at what both factions generally say they want in terms of their political platform - compared to who they actually vote for and what they actually get.

It's this phenomenon which likely contributes to the voter apathy which Butch was referring to earlier. If the politicians are just going to lie and tell the people what they want to hear, along with way too many voters who keep falling for these lies - hook, line, and sinker - then some people might be inclined to say "Why bother?"

I am responding to your comment that people who oppose big government don't have a leg to stand on.
Just because we don't always win doesn't mean we don't do our research and vote our principles.
My representative and one of my senators are rated in the top 20% of most conservative, and my other senator is #2 after a incoming senator. I realize that you would find this a reason to vote against them but that is your right.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Zonie63)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/11/2015 11:41:40 AM

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rating 'conservative'? by who? there are no conservatives in congress.

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(in reply to BamaD)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/11/2015 11:55:15 AM

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I agree with you completely on this point. It does seem curious that so many people don't vote, but then again, that's a problem hardly confined to Ferguson MO. It's the same problem on the national level. Strictly speaking, all those people complaining about "Big Gov" and "creeping socialism" don't have a leg to stand on, since We The People voted for it.

Yes we do if we vote against the big government candidates. Or at least the more big government candidate. Thus have two legs to stand on.

If you vote for the candidate who runs on a platform of being against big government, and that candidate wins - yet turns out to not be so much against big government as he/she originally said, then it would still be your fault for voting for him/her.

No, it is his fault for lying, unless you think I need to be a mind reader. Besides, I look at their records more than their promises.

I'm sure you've probably heard the old saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." The voters have been fooled so many times, it's a damn shame all the way around.

I'm not directing this at you personally, Bama, since I don't really know you or know who you've actually voted for or why. I'm just saying in general. This would even go for both liberals and conservatives, when looking at what both factions generally say they want in terms of their political platform - compared to who they actually vote for and what they actually get.

It's this phenomenon which likely contributes to the voter apathy which Butch was referring to earlier. If the politicians are just going to lie and tell the people what they want to hear, along with way too many voters who keep falling for these lies - hook, line, and sinker - then some people might be inclined to say "Why bother?"

I am responding to your comment that people who oppose big government don't have a leg to stand on.
Just because we don't always win doesn't mean we don't do our research and vote our principles.
My representative and one of my senators are rated in the top 20% of most conservative, and my other senator is #2 after a incoming senator. I realize that you would find this a reason to vote against them but that is your right.

What do you mean "don't always win"? As far as those who truly, genuinely oppose big government, they have never won any election in my lifetime. Even those who tout themselves as the "most conservative," all they ever really support is lower taxes, but they've hardly put any kind of dent in reducing the size, power, or authority of government. If anything, when it comes to issues such as those brought up in this thread, conservatives actually become staunch cheerleaders and advocates for increasing the power of government, not decreasing it. Conservatives generally push for people to submit to government authority and never try to challenge it, and this is why there's been such an outcry over this whole Ferguson thing.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/11/2015 11:45:07 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I agree with you completely on this point. It does seem curious that so many people don't vote, but then again, that's a problem hardly confined to Ferguson MO. It's the same problem on the national level. Strictly speaking, all those people complaining about "Big Gov" and "creeping socialism" don't have a leg to stand on, since We The People voted for it.

Yes we do if we vote against the big government candidates. Or at least the more big government candidate. Thus have two legs to stand on.

If you vote for the candidate who runs on a platform of being against big government, and that candidate wins - yet turns out to not be so much against big government as he/she originally said, then it would still be your fault for voting for him/her.

No, it is his fault for lying, unless you think I need to be a mind reader. Besides, I look at their records more than their promises.

I'm sure you've probably heard the old saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." The voters have been fooled so many times, it's a damn shame all the way around.

I'm not directing this at you personally, Bama, since I don't really know you or know who you've actually voted for or why. I'm just saying in general. This would even go for both liberals and conservatives, when looking at what both factions generally say they want in terms of their political platform - compared to who they actually vote for and what they actually get.

It's this phenomenon which likely contributes to the voter apathy which Butch was referring to earlier. If the politicians are just going to lie and tell the people what they want to hear, along with way too many voters who keep falling for these lies - hook, line, and sinker - then some people might be inclined to say "Why bother?"

I am responding to your comment that people who oppose big government don't have a leg to stand on.
Just because we don't always win doesn't mean we don't do our research and vote our principles.
My representative and one of my senators are rated in the top 20% of most conservative, and my other senator is #2 after a incoming senator. I realize that you would find this a reason to vote against them but that is your right.

What do you mean "don't always win"? As far as those who truly, genuinely oppose big government, they have never won any election in my lifetime. Even those who tout themselves as the "most conservative," all they ever really support is lower taxes, but they've hardly put any kind of dent in reducing the size, power, or authority of government. If anything, when it comes to issues such as those brought up in this thread, conservatives actually become staunch cheerleaders and advocates for increasing the power of government, not decreasing it. Conservatives generally push for people to submit to government authority and never try to challenge it, and this is why there's been such an outcry over this whole Ferguson thing.

Even if we pretend that you are absolutely correct, your original statement is still wrong. As long as we vote for the smaller government guy we are still backing up our views.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Zonie63)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/12/2015 6:18:26 AM

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Joined: 7/4/2006
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Profiling... Hmmm... Yep, drivers get profiled but would this be considered racist to profile for a traffic stop? <tongue firmly in cheek>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfl1TtsdgDQ

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/12/2015 6:42:03 AM

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Status: offline

Two Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station
Two St. Louis County police officers were shot early Thursday outside the Ferguson police station, the county police said. The officers’ conditions were not known.
The shootings followed protests by several dozen demonstrators, which included occasional clashes with the police and a few arrests. But the situation had been relatively calm for about half an hour when several shots rang out from a distance, and protesters and police officers alike went to the ground.
After the gunfire stopped, several officers appeared to be dragging a colleague back toward the police station.
The incident came less than a day after Ferguson’s police chief, Thomas Jackson, agreed to resign as part of a shake-up of the city administration following a scathing Justice Department report on constitutional abuses in the local law enforcement system.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/13/us/ferguson-police.html?emc=edit_na_20150312

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RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/12/2015 9:07:22 AM

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We can only hope that the poor unarmed baby faced victims who shot the officers werent harmed

How long until their high school graduation pictures are published?

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(in reply to Lucylastic)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/12/2015 9:15:50 AM

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They were rightwingers that did the shooting.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/12/2015 9:22:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

We can only hope that the poor unarmed baby faced victims who shot the officers werent harmed

How long until their high school graduation pictures are published?

projection this early in the morning....have some gravol....

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/12/2015 9:33:41 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

We can only hope that the poor unarmed baby faced victims who shot the officers werent harmed

How long until their high school graduation pictures are published?

Clearly if the cops weren't racists they wouldn't have been shot. The cops should have been able to swat the bullets down with their batons and if that didn't work they could have tasered them.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/12/2015 9:36:25 AM

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Well, that is your opinion. It isn't a popular one though.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: DOJ Review Finds Bias in Ferguson PD - 3/12/2015 9:38:10 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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Now Sanity... I am sure the good citizens just protesting will be happy to turn the shooters or shooter over to police or to provide information leading to their arrest...Lets just wait a few days and give the protesters the opportunity to be responsible citizens.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/12/2015 9:40:12 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Sanity)

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