RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within"

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RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 5:49:40 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Are you going to go out and do it yourself Butch, because I aint voting for putting our troops or yours, in the way.

No... but the Arab league could and should...if not then it is best to let them kill each other until a winner emerges and the opposition is without heads.

I do believe the latest bunch of nuts will be destroyed... but what and who will take their place? Without some sort of world intervention there will just continue to be one radical group after another. The US has no stomach for nation building anymore... Europe is too chicken shit... The UN is a joke...so that only leaves the Arab league. AND I believe partitioning will be the final solution.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 5:55:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Are you going to go out and do it yourself Butch, because I aint voting for putting our troops or yours, in the way.

No... but the Arab league could and should...if not then it is best to let them kill each other until a winner emerges and the opposition is without heads.

I do believe the latest bunch of nuts will be destroyed... but what and who will take their place? Without some sort of world intervention there will just continue to be one radical group after another. The US has no stomach for nation building anymore... Europe is too chicken shit... The UN is a joke...so that only leaves the Arab league. AND I believe partitioning will be the final solution.

Butch

The Arab league dont have either the firepower or the inclination, besides that have you failed to notice that they are Sunni and Shia.

The notion Europe is too chicken shit is the normal bollocks quoted from armchair generals. We have had more than enough of our troops die in this fiasco so shame on you for suggesting such crap.

Shakes head in dismay.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 6:02:02 PM

kdsub

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They have the fire power or we can give it to them...and we could only hope they have sense enough to realize that without a local solution they may be the next victims of radical Islam.

If I can believe you and others who tell me the billions of Muslims that are peace loving... then surely for peace they will be willing to sacrifice some sons and daughters... instead of ours.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 6:03:15 PM

kdsub

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Yes one was too many... but you have no staying power or resolve even with the murders on your streets.

Butch

ps... 179 British deaths to 4,500 US so excuse me if I think we got the worse of the deal.

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/9/2015 6:50:55 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 6:10:25 PM

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You just dont get middle eastern politics do you, not only is it religious, but it is also tribal.

Your notion that Muslims from outside the area can waltz in and control things is a stupid as it is dangerous. Have you already forgotten ISIS are running around with weapons given to the Shia to control AQ Etc. Hows that working out for you now, with ISIS driving US tanks down main street Iraq. The only people who can defeat ISIL are the SUNNI tribes. Maybe you figure the Saudi and Shia armies are just going to join as one and sort out the issue.

Your bullshit is becoming irksome Butch as it is lead not by rational thought but by your self-admitted Islamophobia.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 6:26:22 PM

kdsub

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Oh Yea... you do... Hell politesub who DOES? The path we are on now and have been on is a disaster for all... It is time for a real change... Just as you and I have overcome our prejudices so must they if they have any hope of peace. If those closest to the problem can't solve it then there is no use us throwing our children at it. Let the dumb asses kill each other then.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 6:28:52 PM

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quote:

If I can believe you and others who tell me the billions of Muslims that are peace loving... then surely for peace they will be willing to sacrifice some sons and daughters... instead of ours.

Jeez, Butch, what do you mean by 'ours'? These billions of peace-loving Muslims are amongst us. They *are* ours. Time and again you're going to get it hopelessly and dangerously wrong if you think this is about 'Islam' versus 'Christianity' or the West. Your dividing line between 'us' and 'them' - the 'goodies' and the 'baddies' - is so seriously and so simplistically screwed up.

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RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 6:31:24 PM

kdsub

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You know... lots of well meaning people on these boards have tried to come up with ideas, good and bad, on how the killing can be stopped. All we hear for you in thread after thread is how every idea is stupid and no one knows anything but you... Well how about you trying to come up with some ideas for our consideration.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 6:34:33 PM

kdsub

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Peon why do you think I am making this a Muslim Christian thing... I am not. If there are billions of peace loving Muslims.. then let them die to purge the radicalism from their religion.

This IS a religious problem not a resource or territorial problem so only religion can solve it.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/9/2015 6:37:55 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 7:19:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Peon why do you think I am making this a Muslim Christian thing... I am not. If there are billions of peace loving Muslims.. then let them die to purge the radicalism from their religion.

This IS a religious problem not a resource or territorial problem so only religion can solve it.

Butch

Why do they have to 'own' the radicalism in their religion? That makes no sense. I'm nominally Christian - do I have to 'own' everything that every Christian does? Sure, if one of these ISIS loons were to catch me, I'd possibly be lumped in with, for instance, Bush or Blair as a 'Christian', no matter what my protestations that I have *fuck all to do with these people*; still less do I have anything to do with the crusaders of the times of yore.

It is NOT a religious problem, except insofar as religion is used to rationalise it - make it look "reasoned", spiritually and morally based, and so forth. It's political, economic and tribal. If it were religious, primarily, then why haven't all Muslims joined up with ISIS? Why aren't they all at least paid-up terrorists? This is a nonsense. It doesn't bear analysis.

Seriously, Butch, where does your analysis end up? Am I, for instance, supposed to go into my newsagent's and ask the old Muslim boy who runs it and has been selling me my copy of the Independent for the last ten years when he's going to join up to go and fight ISIS? This little quiet, polite, friendly and respectful guy with thick glasses, with his cute daughters, who always has the most decorated shop in the row come Christmas?

These people are varied. They are *different from one another*. They're just ordinary humans. They aren't the psychopathic nutters of ISIS, any more than I'm Jack the Ripper or any other nominal Christian.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 3/9/2015 7:21:03 PM >

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RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 7:32:23 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Peon why do you think I am making this a Muslim Christian thing... I am not. If there are billions of peace loving Muslims.. then let them die to purge the radicalism from their religion.

This IS a religious problem not a resource or territorial problem so only religion can solve it.

Butch

If they aren't willing to fight for themselves then as soon as whoever does it for them leaves it will erupt again.
Train them and equip them so they can do the job themselves. It is not a matter of the moderates owning every act committed by any Muslim, it is a matter of these fanatics are a threat to the moderates, who do you think most of their victims are. I know you understand this but most of this thread do not seem to.

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 7:39:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Peon why do you think I am making this a Muslim Christian thing... I am not. If there are billions of peace loving Muslims.. then let them die to purge the radicalism from their religion.

This IS a religious problem not a resource or territorial problem so only religion can solve it.

Butch

If they aren't willing to fight for themselves then as soon as whoever does it for them leaves it will erupt again.
Train them and equip them so they can do the job themselves. It is not a matter of the moderates owning every act committed by any Muslim, it is a matter of these fanatics are a threat to the moderates, who do you think most of their victims are. I know you understand this but most of this thread do not seem to.

The moderate Muslims who they've attacked are already fighting them, Bama. What's your quibble, here? ISIS have clearly demonstrated that they don't give a flying fuck about anybody at all other than themselves - Muslim, Christian or even - now - Buddhist. We in the west are only safe because we are the 'distant enemy'.

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RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 7:46:00 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Peon why do you think I am making this a Muslim Christian thing... I am not. If there are billions of peace loving Muslims.. then let them die to purge the radicalism from their religion.

This IS a religious problem not a resource or territorial problem so only religion can solve it.

Butch

If they aren't willing to fight for themselves then as soon as whoever does it for them leaves it will erupt again.
Train them and equip them so they can do the job themselves. It is not a matter of the moderates owning every act committed by any Muslim, it is a matter of these fanatics are a threat to the moderates, who do you think most of their victims are. I know you understand this but most of this thread do not seem to.

The moderate Muslims who they've attacked are already fighting them, Bama. What's your quibble, here? ISIS have clearly demonstrated that they don't give a flying fuck about anybody at all other than themselves - Muslim, Christian or even - now - Buddhist. We in the west are only safe because we are the 'distant enemy'.

Since the only argument being made is how to help those moderates why do you insist that we try to make this is Christian vs Muslim? Do we have to make a statement in every post that we are only talking about the fanatics after having responded to that accusation a dozen time? Or is you memory that short.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 7:57:44 PM

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So who is it who isn't fighting, who you think should be fighting?

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RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 8:02:29 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

So who is it who isn't fighting, who you think should be fighting?

The moderates have been slow to act, and are just now getting going.
They need to do the heavy fighting, not because western lives are more valuable, but because it has to be their victory.
We, the West. should be providing them with all the training and equipment they need to do the job, which we have not been doing.
We may have to provide air support as well.
What I laid out earlier.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/9/2015 8:08:01 PM

kdsub

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Peon

Yes they must own their radicalism...who else should. If governments cannot govern because of differences in religion among their citizens then it is the religion that must reconcile and police itself. Reasonable Muslims will have to raise up and say enough is enough...not western armies.

I am talking of the people in the areas of conflict... I thought this would be obvious to you... if ISIS for instance is a small group of radicals without general support then it should be easily defeated.

I will challenge you like I did politesub... what do you think it will take for a lasting peace and how would you go about it? I really do want to know what you think...no bullshit.

It could very well be you have in the past and i have missed it so forgive me... but i have the impression, maybe wrong, that you never have offered a solution.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/9/2015 8:09:54 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/10/2015 7:04:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The problem isnt so much ISIS itself, or al-Qaeda itself, or Boko Horam itself, or Iran itself, etc etc etc, as it is the Koran itself (and other Islamic teachings) instructing Islamists to act the way that they do

Until that problem is somehow corrected we are just going to play whack-a-mole with these groups

The problem you're addressing is a very old one, since we (the West) have been at odds with various Muslim nations for over a millennium. We in the United States have had minimal dealings with them prior to WW2, apart from the brief episode with the Barbary Pirates shortly after Independence. But it's only been a relatively recent development that the Muslim world and/or Middle East played any relevance at all in our national security aspirations.

100 years ago, the only Muslim nation of any consequence was the Ottoman Empire, while most of the rest of the Muslim world was under the thumb of either Russia or the West, in one form or another. The Koran was still around back then, but the Islamists were hardly any threat at all. The only real threat coming from that area of the world was the Ottoman Empire, but even by that time, they had seriously declined and were only a junior partner in the Central Powers. They were only a remote threat to the rest of Europe, and they were no threat at all to US territory.

So, the Koran has been around all this time, far longer than the US has even existed, yet it has only become a "threat" in the last few decades. How does something like this happen?

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/10/2015 7:12:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
Assuming that it is "breaking up", these people arent gonna just all of a sudden become law abiding and turn away from terrorism.. they still want to destroy just as before, but they will do it in smaller groups or as lone wolf terrorists.. how is that any better? That makes it harder to fight & to intercept future attacks, doesnt it?

Strictly speaking, the only terrorists we really need to worry about are those who potentially exist on our own soil. This would be equally true even if ISIS never came into existence. In that sense, whatever these groups are doing in Nigeria, Syria, Iraq, or any other faraway place is of very little consequence to the United States. That's why all this talk about ISIS or Boko Haram being such a "grave threat" never rang true.

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RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/10/2015 7:16:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Right, ignore them and they will go away. Nothing to worry about.

I never said that we should ignore them.

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RE: ISIS appears to be "fraying from within" - 3/10/2015 7:16:33 AM

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It never had the ingredients for long term rule. IF ISIS does collapse, what happens next? It might live on as a guerrilla organization.

(in reply to Zonie63)

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