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Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 12:23:01 PM

peacefulservant

Posts: 6
Joined: 7/14/2006
From: Jaffrey NH
Status: offline

First let me apologize for bringing up a topic that has been over discussed on other threads.
Now on to my questions.

At what point should you consider your self more a slave then just one how likes to be overly submissive?
As one who has little intrest in sex at all, should I let this sway what "catagory" I consider my self in?
In not having sex im I closing off a doorway that could teach me a ton about my feelings on the subject, or am I saving my self from much cofussion and pain? In short is the pain worth the gain?
Why is it that the most common view I seem to find that doms have on the subject is "Submissive ppl are just ones who havent found the right dom to make them a slave."?

sincerely your peacefull servant.

_____________________________

"become at once vertuous in crime and criminal in virtue."
the Marquis de sade- 120 days of sadom.

Post #: 1

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 12:48:56 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

edited because champagnewishes was able to articulate something far more relevant to you.... good luck

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/15/2006 1:02:47 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to peacefulservant)

Post #: 2

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 1:00:00 PM

champagnewishes

Posts: 1310
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Orange County
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulservant
At what point should you consider your self more a slave then just one how likes to be overly submissive?

I think that is a question only you can answer. Although I consider myself as far on the other side of the spectrum from a slave as one could get, i would assume one would have the same revelation as when they discovered themselves to be submissive. It feels right, it defines a greater understanding of yourself etc. etc.

quote:

As one who has little intrest in sex at all, should I let this sway what "catagory" I consider my self in?
In not having sex im I closing off a doorway that could teach me a ton about my feelings on the subject, or am I saving my self from much cofussion and pain? In short is the pain worth the gain?

I think just the opposite. Although I would not dismiss the idea of sex all together in the future, this might be exactly what you need in order to sort through, understand and appreciate the experiences you are having. No need for overload from the start....take it slow...you'll know if and when your ready to take the next step.

quote:

Why is it that the most common view I seem to find that doms have on the subject is "Submissive ppl are just ones who havent found the right dom to make them a slave."?

sincerely your peacefull servant.

A little Dom ego at work perhaps...i'm sure many truly feel this way. I would not consider it a reliable statistical fact however.

_____________________________

Nirvana cannot be described, it is only understood truly by a person who has experienced it.

(in reply to peacefulservant)

Post #: 3

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 1:08:52 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulservant

First let me apologize for bringing up a topic that has been over discussed on other threads.
Now on to my questions.

At what point should you consider your self more a slave then just one how likes to be overly submissive?
As one who has little intrest in sex at all, should I let this sway what "catagory" I consider my self in?
In not having sex im I closing off a doorway that could teach me a ton about my feelings on the subject, or am I saving my self from much cofussion and pain? In short is the pain worth the gain?
Why is it that the most common view I seem to find that doms have on the subject is "Submissive ppl are just ones who havent found the right dom to make them a slave."?

sincerely your peacefull servant.

A submissive serves with the mutually agreed right to define the limits and boundaries of that servitude. A slave enters consensually into bondage which removes all rights save those granted by its keeper, as it is in this vein owned property. It is my experience that most who use the term slave do so inaccurately. Many speak of themselves in this way when they are in fact still living in a relationship of limited negotiative servitude.

Neither one way is superior to the other, and while submissive is oft viewed as the beginning of slave, the two are of course not always linked in this way. To understand where you fall, you need only consider the terms soberly, free of the romantic drivel and sensual obfuscation that so often muddles them.

< Message edited by amayos -- 7/15/2006 1:19:40 PM >

(in reply to peacefulservant)

Post #: 4

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 1:14:58 PM

MasterandCommand

Posts: 22
Joined: 1/24/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

A submissive serves with the mutually agreed right to define the limits and boundaries of that servitude. A slave enters consensually into bondage which removes all rights save those granted by their keepers, as they are in this vein owned property. It is my experience that most who use the term slave do so inaccurately. Many speak of themselves in this way when they are in fact still living in a relationship of limited negotiative servitude.

Neither one way is superior to the other, and while submissive is oft viewed as the beginning of slave, the two are of course not always linked in this way. To understand where you fall, you need only consider the terms soberly, free of the romantic drivel and sensual obfuscation that so often muddles them.

amayos; your simple words here has gained my respect of your communications skills.... I could have never put it so elequantly and simple yet with dignaty and force... as you have done so here.

krimson

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 5

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 1:19:53 PM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulservant

First let me apologize for bringing up a topic that has been over discussed on other threads.
Now on to my questions.

At what point should you consider your self more a slave then just one how likes to be overly submissive?
As one who has little intrest in sex at all, should I let this sway what "catagory" I consider my self in?
In not having sex im I closing off a doorway that could teach me a ton about my feelings on the subject, or am I saving my self from much cofussion and pain? In short is the pain worth the gain?
Why is it that the most common view I seem to find that doms have on the subject is "Submissive ppl are just ones who havent found the right dom to make them a slave."?

sincerely your peacefull servant.

I would first define what you mean by the words "submissive" and "slave" -- there are not universals here but your definitions and that of your partner should likely match to increase your odds of success (in my experience).

Next evaluate how you feel, act, and what motivates you. Does this fit into one of those terms more than the other?

If so, does your evaluation match that of your partner?

After all of that, you may have a good definition for yourself.

Of course I'm biased here and basing my advice on what has worked well for me. Fox knew he was my slave when he fit our definition of that far more than he fit our definition of submissive.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to peacefulservant)

Post #: 6

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 1:20:30 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterandCommand

amayos; your simple words here has gained my respect of your communications skills.... I could have never put it so elequantly and simple yet with dignaty and force... as you have done so here.

krimson

Thank you, Sir.

(in reply to MasterandCommand)

Post #: 7

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 1:26:13 PM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

I'm a slave to love. Love is what makes it real for me. If we just talked about a body, or a mind, I could never label myself with the term slave, its my heart that enslaves me, my mind and body then have no power to resist and absorb themselves into that slavery of my heart and work in unison with it.

I think we are all slaves........to something.....even if its just to our own ideology

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to champagnewishes)

Post #: 8

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 1:27:53 PM

peacefulservant

Posts: 6
Joined: 7/14/2006
From: Jaffrey NH
Status: offline

I am so happy that my question has been met with so many wonderful answers! Tho I must admit I did fear that I would get nothing out of posting. Plz keep the answers coming!

_____________________________

"become at once vertuous in crime and criminal in virtue."
the Marquis de sade- 120 days of sadom.

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 9

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 2:09:22 PM

enigmabrat

Posts: 2383
Joined: 8/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulservant

First let me apologize for bringing up a topic that has been over discussed on other threads.
Now on to my questions.

At what point should you consider your self more a slave then just one how likes to be overly submissive?
As one who has little intrest in sex at all, should I let this sway what "catagory" I consider my self in?
In not having sex im I closing off a doorway that could teach me a ton about my feelings on the subject, or am I saving my self from much cofussion and pain? In short is the pain worth the gain?
Why is it that the most common view I seem to find that doms have on the subject is "Submissive ppl are just ones who havent found the right dom to make them a slave."?

sincerely your peacefull servant.

A submissive serves with the mutually agreed right to define the limits and boundaries of that servitude. A slave enters consensually into bondage which removes all rights save those granted by its keeper, as it is in this vein owned property. It is my experience that most who use the term slave do so inaccurately. Many speak of themselves in this way when they are in fact still living in a relationship of limited negotiative servitude.

Neither one way is superior to the other, and while submissive is oft viewed as the beginning of slave, the two are of course not always linked in this way. To understand where you fall, you need only consider the terms soberly, free of the romantic drivel and sensual obfuscation that so often muddles them.

Even slaves have limits... EVERYONE has limists so this isnt completly tue at least in my opinion. But that has been talked to death

_____________________________

Leather strap $85.00 on Master card
Wooden paddle $50.00 on Master card
ratten cane $48.00 on Master card

a Master that can use them all Priceless

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 10

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 2:34:56 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: enigmabrat

Even slaves have limits... EVERYONE has limists so this isnt completly tue at least in my opinion. But that has been talked to death

What do you mean?

(in reply to enigmabrat)

Post #: 11

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 3:13:38 PM

Caretakr

Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline

There are many approaches to this.

Some see it as a sex and sensation game-with an authority twist.

Others focus on the authority structure itself.

Some feel that an unreserved giving of themselves will be freeing.

And others yet find service a spiritual calling.

And there are as many variants as there are people,and pairings.

Which fragment, in the ever shifting kaliadescope, are you?

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 12

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 3:54:39 PM

KennelDeSade2

Posts: 210
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline

[/quote]
Even slaves have limits... EVERYONE has limists so this isnt completly tue at least in my opinion. But that has been talked to death
[/quote]

BEGIN RANT
Well. No.
But. If one is to be truly and completely honest, they must acknowledge that we do a great many things that are based on the general agreement that a clear falsehood will be accepted as indisputable truth. And that doing so creates a far more superior quality of life than any system that is based on strict rational fact, has ever accomplished This fact is of course open to dispute. Do so strongly enough and you will find that myself and many others like me will join together and do our level best to insure if not agreement, at least your compliance with the rules laid down in our corporate charter. Resist with enough vigor, and you will be killed. I once swore an oath to defend a corporation to the death, knowing that its foundation was based on a lie. But, I had been convinced by those smarter than myself that it was in my best interest to do so. Decades later, I see no evidence that I made a bad decision and still stand willing to defend, to the death if necessary, that corporate charter. I know the basic premise is false. But my brothers and I agreed to accept it as truth and do whatever is needed to insure that our viewpoint is accepted as an indisputable truth.

Before you laugh too hard, bear in mind that it works, and it works better than any structure based on organic truth ever has. You don't have to believe me, all you need do is look at the track record. The source documents to prove my point are very easy to find. If you don't think that people will fight to the death to make sure that a falsehood is accepted as absolute truth, the next time you are with a large group, ask who can finish the statement; “I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all ...”

Of course, there are millions living in Europe in little hovels that pass as “working class flats” that wouldn't make the grade as low income housing here in the States, that think our system is quaint and outdated, and not really suitable for these modern times. As a response to that sentiment, I'd say next time we stay home and let the French save Europe. We've already done it twice. Or even better, next time we go, we add a few more stars to the flag and make them act like “all men are created equal, and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights...”

So yeah. Are we all in agreement that there is no such thing as a “no limits slave?” Anybody who disagrees, so signify by standing now, and cutting your own throat.
RANT ENDS MODESET:calm

_____________________________

Rules? Just one: I say, she does.
Everything else, is just details.

(in reply to enigmabrat)

Post #: 13

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 4:39:07 PM

porchia

Posts: 18
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline

      Before i begin slave vs sub has been debated over and over and over and let me further express that these are my personal views.   i agree that everyone has limits---whether they be physical or moral or emotional.   A submissive has the right to stand her ground on a limit and if that limit is to be pushed it must be agreed by the submissive.   she has the final say so when it comes to limits; whereas a slave will also have limits however it is up to her Owner whether to push that limit or not.
    It is extreemely important that a slave relate all of her limits to any potential Dom and there must be a huge level of trust that (S)He will not push limits that can prove detrimental such as moral limits or illegal limits.    For me those do fall into a hard limit---others, for example a poly relationships would be a softer limit because even though it is something i really don't feel is to my taste---i would go into the relationship knowing and/or expecting that at some point that that limit may be and could be pushed.
    This lifestyle forever changes for E/everyone.   Limits can also be looked upon differently as time goes by, so even if my Dom felt that a poly relationship was not something He wanted---that could change.   Moral limits are less likely to change---and i lump most of the taboo sex into moral/illegal limits for example incest.
     Personally regardless of the title i felt best described me---when it came to my 'hard' limits---i would probably request to terminate the relationship, however i do not foresee that becoming an issue because the level of trust would be completely established and i would trust Him not to push those limits.   If it were a softer limit such a poly relationship, i would accept it because my main objective would be to please Him and for me---it's all about Him.
       In the realm of slave vs submissive, i feel that a slave must be much more open with her Owner allowing Him to see right into her soul.    For most, even myself that is a difficult endeavor.   Surrendering one's body is so much easier than surrendering the mind.   Answering 'ohh nothing' to the question "what are you thinking?' is usually not an acceptable answer.   If a slave's thoughts were "why on earth was He looking at that woman's backside in the supermarket" right or wrong it would have to be confessed.   Typically a thought like that for me would be supressed with an "ohh nothing," however sometimes allowing a Partner to know what you are thinking can be very beneficial.   It gives Him an opportunity to know what i thinking and resolve any negative issues i might have like jealousy. Or it could be that He wasn't at all looking at her backside but merely eyeing that snickers bar that He really wanted but knew He shouldn't have.   Either way it would be beneficial to my growth and overall benefical to the relationship.
    Communication is the basis of any healthy relationship but i think in a Owner/slave relationship it is mandatory.   a slave gives complete control to his/her Owner and for his/her own well being it is imperative that not only the body but also the mind is surrendered.
      Do i consider myself a slave---in some degrees yes in others no.   i consider it a very difficult title to live up to.   At some point i may feel comfortable saying yes i am a complete slave.   Regardless---i really do feel that it is not a title to take lightly.   Because of my personal views---i find it disheartening to see someone afixing that title to their name yet have a whole list of hard limits such as caning, cages, enema's blah blah blah unless it's used in a joking manner---such as doing dishes, scrubbing toilets and listening to country music all of which i have established as 'firm' hard limits or if it is a limit established due to health reasons such as a hemophiliac would find knife play a limit based on health reasons.   In that case, an Owner that pushed that sort of limit on a slave in my book would not be considered a very good one.
    Again i stand firm on the fact that these are my personal views regarding the slave vs submissive debate.   If i have offended Aanyone with my views--please accept my apologies as it is not my intent to offend Aanyone with this post.

(in reply to Caretakr)

Post #: 14

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 5:00:48 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KennelDeSade2

If one is to be truly and completely honest, they must acknowledge that we do a great many things that are based on the general agreement that a clear falsehood will be accepted as indisputable truth.

For the winking cynic this may resound as a final word which wraps things up neatly, though it is no secret that in the history of humanity many by will of their own have followed their oaths unto death for an idea or belief in a thing or way of life—thus demonstrating the final and ultimate limit one may transcend.

We are mortal human beings. When speaking of limits I believe the reasoned among us do so in context to the mental environment; we are not speaking in terms of demanding performance past physical impossibility. I trust this is obvious to most.

< Message edited by amayos -- 7/15/2006 5:18:15 PM >

(in reply to KennelDeSade2)

Post #: 15

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 5:05:12 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

~Fast Reply~

I think we lost track of the entire point of the OP but I could be wrong. I believe the OP was about the possible evolution from submissive to slave, and at one point does one begin to feel that, if at all?

With that in mind, when I began submitting to Master, I did not view myself as ready for slavery, but asked him to train me as his slave, meaning a slave as he sees slaves. He has been a Dominant to submissives, and a Master to slaves. I knew what I felt inside was compelling me to slavery. And slavery as he and I both saw it was precisely as Amayos put it in his first post to this thread. I could not begin with Master as his slave; he and I both knew that. But we both wanted it. He wanted someone to own completely, and I needed to give myself over to him in full. I am still growing in my slavery and likely always will.

I think where the OP may run into trouble is in expending the energy trying to place a definition on himself, and to categorize himself. If you feel your submission, embrace it. Let it take you where it takes you. If you find a Dominant whose ideals strike something within you, pay attention - to your thoughts and feelings, and to the direction said Dominant seems to be taking you. Submissive is not better than slave, nor slave better than submissive. They are two seperate beasts, intertwined at times. You may be a submissive and in time discover absolute peace and fulfillment in relinquishing your entire will to someone else, thus re-defining yourself as slave. You may find absolute satisfaction and safety in setting your own parameters in which you will submit. The important thing is if the relationship you are in brings you happiness, and inspires your best.

(in reply to porchia)

Post #: 16

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 5:18:57 PM

peacefulservant

Posts: 6
Joined: 7/14/2006
From: Jaffrey NH
Status: offline

Let me try and steer this thread a little back on topic.
First as I know that the Slave vs Sub thing has been done to death (Im sooo sorry for bringing it up but I had to

) what I was realy looking for was a succinct discription of your feelings about what differentiates the two.

I also feel that the other more important questions are getting precious little attention.

P.S. am I the only one that finds it funny that im eating a vanilla shake as I typed this.

< Message edited by peacefulservant -- 7/15/2006 5:28:05 PM >

_____________________________

"become at once vertuous in crime and criminal in virtue."
the Marquis de sade- 120 days of sadom.

(in reply to porchia)

Post #: 17

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 5:28:35 PM

sleazybutterfly

Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulservant

First let me apologize for bringing up a topic that has been over discussed on other threads.
Now on to my questions.

At what point should you consider your self more a slave then just one how likes to be overly submissive?
I think this is up to the individual. Who can say where that line is that you step over from being a sub..to being a slave. I don't really see much reason for titles and terms..everyone has a version of what they think a "true" sub or slave is. Sometimes we fit certain parts of that..and other times we don't. Maybe it is just how you feel as the person that is submitting.
As one who has little intrest in sex at all, should I let this sway what "catagory" I consider my self in?
I can't see why this would make a difference. There are plenty of scenes both ways with and without sex. There are certain types of slaves (sexual, domestic..etc.) so there is no reason to feel you couldn't be a slave because you don't have sex with your Dom/me. The same as in being a sub.. sex does not have to exist for you to be submissive to the person that you choose to submit to.
In not having sex im I closing off a doorway that could teach me a ton about my feelings on the subject, or am I saving my self from much cofussion and pain?No. Pain can be there whether you have sex or not. The connection can still be there emotionally and it will not hurt any less when/if it goes away.
In short is the pain worth the gain? That is pretty subjective. It depends on what you expect the sex to actually contribute to things. Do you think that it might make things more clear for you and all the confusion go away, or do you think it will just be a bit of fun and you want to try it? It won't be the "magic pill" that clears the fog up, either way.
Why is it that the most common view I seem to find that doms have on the subject is "Submissive ppl are just ones who havent found the right dom to make them a slave."?
Because these Dom/me's think they are the one special one that can "turn" you. Sort of like being a lesbian..and the right guy making them go straight.

I have had good experiences and bad...each one making me a bit of what I am. I always looked at myself as a slave...no matter what any one elses definition was. I thought at first that I had to fit the mold they made..then I decided that what I was..was in my heart..not for anyone to make me.. or tell me I couldn't be.

I now define myself as a switch..I think I have a bit of all three in heart now. It wasn't an easy thing for me to change about my profile here (silly as it sounds)but I also didn't want to deceive anyone into expecting me to be something I am not.

Just be open to things.. you will change and evolve..and just because the bdsm world tries to give you a label..doesn't mean you have to let it stick. You are the one that defines yourself and your actions..they don't. Most important, be yourself..and the rest will just happen naturally.

Good luck.. ~Andrea

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to peacefulservant)

Post #: 18

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 5:42:15 PM

porchia

Posts: 18
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline

peaceful---the questions you have brought up are a bit of a personal nature and it would be difficult for anyone to answer these questions for you as you would have to find them inside yourself

quote:

At what point should you consider your self more a slave then just one how likes to be overly submissive?

For me that is a question i can not answer at this time.

quote:

As one who has little intrest in sex at all, should I let this sway what "catagory" I consider my self in?
In not having sex im I closing off a doorway that could teach me a ton about my feelings on the subject, or am I saving my self from much cofussion and pain? In short is the pain worth the gain?

This again is not a question that can be answered by anyone but you. Have you considered why you don't have an interest in sex? If you tackle the reasons as to why you don't have an interest you can overcome the pain you think you might feel.

quote:

Why is it that the most common view I seem to find that doms have on the subject is "Submissive ppl are just ones who havent found the right dom to make them a slave."?

Personally this is the first time i have heard this---however, i doubt even a very good Dom could change every single submissive into a slave. i'll admit that i have grown over time with proper guidence and see things differently than i did 10 years ago, however, if a Dom came to me saying that He could change my views just based on the fact that He felt He was right for me---i'd probably see Him as a bit arrogant, cocky, too self assured and a bit pompus.

(in reply to peacefulservant)

Post #: 19

RE: Slave vs submissive - 7/15/2006 6:58:10 PM

KennelDeSade2

Posts: 210
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos
We are mortal human beings. When speaking of limits I believe the reasoned among us do so in context to the mental environment; we are not speaking in terms of demanding performance past physical impossibility. I trust this is obvious to most.

It would be, if you could ask three different people how to define a word so simple as slave, and not get four different and very spirited definitions of the same word.
Obvious is a word that is usually used in the context of BDSM when somebody really means "I'm right, and you ain't."

_____________________________

Rules? Just one: I say, she does.
Everything else, is just details.

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 20

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