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RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 10:42:30 AM

kdsub

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Bama... If say more children die from chemical poisoning should we drop the seat belt and child seat laws? If children drown in a swimming pool should we drop our requirements on lead paint in toys? You are not thinking correctly... in fact you are not thinking at all.

I am all for strict laws on fencing around pools... I am all for safety caps on Draino and any other measures to limit accidental deaths of all types...why then can you not be for strict laws to protect children and adults from gun negligence and crime?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 241

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 10:57:51 AM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Bama... If say more children die from chemical poisoning should we drop the seat belt and child seat laws? If children drown in a swimming pool should we drop our requirements on lead paint in toys? You are not thinking correctly... in fact you are not thinking at all.

I am all for strict laws on fencing around pools... I am all for safety caps on Draino and any other measures to limit accidental deaths of all types...why then can you not be for strict laws to protect children and adults from gun negligence and crime?

Butch

No it is you who are not thinking.
A simple fence is not enough.
Kids climb over fences so shouldn't we require that they are in a cage like an avery? That compares to what you want for guns. A couple of tire boots and a anchor chain is comprable to what you want for guns. If it is reasonable for guns it is reasonable for everything else in the world. You want to concide the governments right to micromanage your life? Since firearms accidents account for 1% of fatalities in home accidents how much more strenuous should the laws be for the other things? And still you don't answer.
Yes or no, if the kid climbs the fence and drowns or breaks in to your home and drinks draino should you go to jail for it. If he steals your car and runs over someone is it your fault if he says the car was unlocked? You want to open a monstorus can of worms and refuse to see where it goes.
Then you accuse me of rediculous positions which have nothing to do with what I said.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 242

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 11:13:26 AM

mnottertail

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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Well, there are more gun deaths per year than drunken driving ACCIDENTs (all totalled) but we have that law, and enforcement has brought it down considerably from the nearly everyone is dead days.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 243

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 11:27:30 AM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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No bama all you are saying is that because children die all the time by accidents other than the 2,000 plus per year from guns that we should do nothing to stop or make those responsible for their gun negligence that kills children. It is an asinine indefensible stance.

And the above does not even cover the other 20,000 or so killed or injured by stolen or illegally obtained guns from negligent gun owners or sellers. AND heaven forbid we talk about all the dead an injured by the ability of the insane to obtain weapons... and some legally.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 244

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 11:48:08 AM

BamaD

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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No bama all you are saying is that because children die all the time by accidents other than the 2,000 plus per year from guns that we should do nothing to stop or make those responsible for their gun negligence that kills children. It is an asinine indefensible stance.

And the above does not even cover the other 20,000 or so killed or injured by stolen or illegally obtained guns from negligent gun owners or sellers. AND heaven forbid we talk about all the dead an injured by the ability of the insane to obtain weapons... and some legally.

Butch

Your numbers are grossly exagerated. If 2000 were dying from gun accidents per year that would mean about 32,000 were dying from poisonings.
Did you not read any of the information that has been posted? I don't know who your sources are but they are liars.
I have long said that we should put mental health info into the data base, and keep those insane people from getting guns. But I cannot support something that gives the government the power to micromanage my life.
I understand your argument but it is based on rediculous figures. Saying that since I will only go as far as saying I favor the use of gun safes means I don't care about kids being killed is like saying that since you will only support fences around pools, but since you don't favor maditorily making the fence go clear over the top of the pool and you don't want to make car owners boot their cars when not driving means you don't care about kids killed that way.
And you still refuse to answer.
If kid climbs the fence and drowns, if someone steals your car and runs oversomeone, if the kid breaks into your home an drinks the draino, shouldn't you be held responsible. If your answer to any of these is no then you are just on an anti-gun crusade and the grossly inflated numbers of deaths is just an excuse.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 10/8/2015 11:55:22 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 245

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 11:53:36 AM

mnottertail

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

I have long said that we should put mental health info into the data base, and keep those insane people from getting guns. But I cannot support something that gives the government the power to micromanage my life.

There is a specific prohibition against that in the law. At time of NICS check, that info is queried from the state of residence court, (that is if you have been committed thru the court) as well as any BCA stuff recent.

It will not track you should you be under psych care subsequently (and in most cases currently) and nothing is done with about 40% of the sales, gunshow loopholes, private transfers...

So, a few things would have to be coordinated and legislated.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 246

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 11:57:28 AM

BamaD

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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

I have long said that we should put mental health info into the data base, and keep those insane people from getting guns. But I cannot support something that gives the government the power to micromanage my life.

There is a specific prohibition against that in the law. At time of NICS check, that info is queried from the state of residence court, (that is if you have been committed thru the court) as well as any BCA stuff recent.

It will not track you should you be under psych care subsequently (and in most cases currently) and nothing is done with about 40% of the sales, gunshow loopholes, private transfers...

So, a few things would have to be coordinated and legislated.

I know, and it needs to be changed.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 247

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 12:01:24 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

I have long said that we should put mental health info into the data base, and keep those insane people from getting guns. But I cannot support something that gives the government the power to micromanage my life.

There is a specific prohibition against that in the law. At time of NICS check, that info is queried from the state of residence court, (that is if you have been committed thru the court) as well as any BCA stuff recent.

It will not track you should you be under psych care subsequently (and in most cases currently) and nothing is done with about 40% of the sales, gunshow loopholes, private transfers...

So, a few things would have to be coordinated and legislated.

The "gunshow loophole" is private transfers that happen to take place st a gun show. The vast majority of private trasnfers seem to be between relatives. The reason I say seem to be is that since there is no record of the transfer that 40% number is simply pulled out of thin air. Now you are smart enough to see that.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 248

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 12:05:19 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

Then the government will collect mental information on you, (shades of conspiracy in the days of yore), and it would be reported to the LEOs of some type, and they would sieze your guns for the duration of your treatment, and private transactions will be made like real estate deals, there will be a public component to them. (shades of conspiracy in the days of yore).

That of course, would result in some off-brand, off-hand shit. Here we have a mother who is within the law herself, as is her son at present, rtght up until........and she lets him use guns...........hmmmmmmmmmmmm, do we seize guns if any member of the household blows a headpipe, permenantly or temporarily? What if they are no immediate danger? I would suspect this guy has handled guns for awhile without incident............there be monsters here..........

Very vexing questions, likely to piss off slews of people, and there is no gut for it in our legislatures, we have seen that they are asses but found no spine there.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 10/8/2015 12:06:21 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 249

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 12:25:17 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Then the government will collect mental information on you, (shades of conspiracy in the days of yore), and it would be reported to the LEOs of some type, and they would sieze your guns for the duration of your treatment, and private transactions will be made like real estate deals, there will be a public component to them. (shades of conspiracy in the days of yore).

That of course, would result in some off-brand, off-hand shit. Here we have a mother who is within the law herself, as is her son at present, rtght up until........and she lets him use guns...........hmmmmmmmmmmmm, do we seize guns if any member of the household blows a headpipe, permenantly or temporarily? What if they are no immediate danger? I would suspect this guy has handled guns for awhile without incident............there be monsters here..........

Very vexing questions, likely to piss off slews of people, and there is no gut for it in our legislatures, we have seen that they are asses but found no spine there.

I agree, any change in the reporting of mental health issues would have to be done very carefully and with very specific controls. The alternative is to allow very dangerous people to have access to very dangerous things. The best thing IMO would be to get them treatment before they go on a killing spree.
I believe that you realise that if deprived of firearms they will fall back on things like gasoline and ferilizer.
The claims that we should jail whoever's gun they got ahold of is silly. I am agreeing with you on this.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 10/8/2015 12:26:41 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 250

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 1:01:29 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

Well, if you give drugs to an addict, and they die, you are in for some problems, if you leave gasoline around for a baby to take a swim in, you are in for some problems, if you buy alcohol for minors you are in for some problems (and I could go on and on) and if you leave a gun for a child, or a mental defective..........you should be in some problems.

In the other cases, there is some agreement, but on this thing, one must perform due diligence, if that is done, fine, if not..........I am for clapping the darbys on ya.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 251

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 3:44:33 PM

BamaD

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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, if you give drugs to an addict, and they die, you are in for some problems, if you leave gasoline around for a baby to take a swim in, you are in for some problems, if you buy alcohol for minors you are in for some problems (and I could go on and on) and if you leave a gun for a child, or a mental defective..........you should be in some problems.

In the other cases, there is some agreement, but on this thing, one must perform due diligence, if that is done, fine, if not..........I am for clapping the darbys on ya.

You would agree would you not that all you are asking for would be that criminal neglignce laws be inforced. As you are aware the definition of reasonable precautions is not universally agreed upon.
I also doubt that you would go along with a one size fits all definition.
For example reasonable precautions in a half way house could easly be banning from the premisise. For a home with a turnover of foster children it should be less but still tight. And so forth. A person living alone would have a very loose definition. If you leave your gun on the front poarch and someone steals it you have been negligence, if they have to commit a crime just to find out if you have a gun, or if it is in a safe that is another matter entirely. Your question about the kid breaking into your home and drinking draino was right on target.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 252

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 3:47:55 PM

Kirata

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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No bama all you are saying is that because children die all the time by accidents other than the 2,000 plus per year from guns...

Is it really necessary to keep making up ridiculous numbers?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/8/2015 3:56:07 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 253

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 4:12:12 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No bama all you are saying is that because children die all the time by accidents other than the 2,000 plus per year from guns...

Is it really necessary to keep making up ridiculous numbers?

K.

I think he gets his information from unreliable sources like Blumberg, and the Brady Bunch.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 254

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 4:20:21 PM

JVoV

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From the CDC:

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 255

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 5:14:40 PM

Kirata

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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

From the CDC:

I'm not clear on what exactly your point is with that chart. It shows nothing whatsoever about the rates of accidental deaths from firearms, which was the subject of the exchange of posts that you've tacked it onto.

K.

(in reply to JVoV)

Post #: 256

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 5:29:01 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

From the CDC:

I'm not clear on what exactly your point is with that chart. It shows nothing whatsoever about the rates of accidental deaths from firearms, which was the subject of the exchange of posts that you've tacked it onto.

K.

TY I was worried about not being able to find a conection.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 257

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 6:10:33 PM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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I was conservative bama... remember to me kids are anyone 20 and younger... what age do you believe someone is no longer a kid.

HERE is a pretty good link with more statistics... check out the outrageous numbers.

EVERY DAMN year 100,000 people are shot!!!

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 258

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 6:41:29 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I was conservative bama... remember to me kids are anyone 20 and younger... what age do you believe someone is no longer a kid.

HERE is a pretty good link with more statistics... check out the outrageous numbers.

EVERY DAMN year 100,000 people are shot!!!

Butch

The CDC says that children are anyone under 14.
If under 20 is a child then how do you explain them voting at 18?
How do you explain them being in the military as young a 17?
How do you explain them driving at 16?
How do you explain them being allowed to hunt (with an adult) as young as 12?

Why won't you address the criminal liability of people when "kids" get hurt by some means other than firearms.
Is it because you know that applying your standards across the board to everything would only help people who make dome fences and car boots?
That it would not be part of an anti gun crusade?
Because you want an unfair and unwise system that penalizes victims as much as criminals, more because you would force them to incriminate themselves just by reporting the theft.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 10/8/2015 6:50:36 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 259

RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 7:09:20 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I was conservative bama... remember to me kids are anyone 20 and younger... what age do you believe someone is no longer a kid.

Well to you, hate is a fine and dandy thing. So at this point, I doubt anyone expects you to be reasonable. But calling a 20 year old a "child" is insulting to the young man and the intelligence of anyone reading your towel-wringing. The CDC classifies "children" as persons under age 15, for which the 2013 accidental death toll from firearms (remember that was the subject?) was 69 out of a 0-14 age population of 61,089,123.

K.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 260

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