RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns.

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (Full Version)

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lovmuffin -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 11:42:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Well, they already made it damn near impossible to own a gun, so it seems to be a going thing to remove the rights of the people. There are a few historic examples of countries who took away the right to own firearms and limit the rights that I mentioned. Seems to go hand in hand, historically speaking. It is very very easy to own a gun legally. So no - it is not "damn near impossible" It is not easy to own a pistol, but a simple police check, and a valid reason (typically permission to shoot on someone's land) and hey presto you can have a shotgun or a rifle. You seem to be desperately confused about democracy... No "country" took away the right of people in the UK to carry pistols, it was the democratically elected government that expressed the overwhelming will of the people to restrict the availability of firearms. It's one of the considerable blessings of living in a democracy where we can change our laws. It's worth noting that next to no-one rocked up to demonstrate against the gun restrictions, while nearly 100,000 marched in opposition to the ban on hunting foxes with hounds. Here's the really fucking amazing thing about the democratic process... if enough people wanted to relax the laws, they could get themselves elected and change the law. Whew! That's all fine and dandy but I think the main issue here is all these guys from other countries (maybe not you that I can recall) think it's such a kool idea for The US to model our gun laws after theirs. It's not a kool idea for the US, it is a stupid idea for so many reasons that we have gone 'round and 'round over and over again on this forum.

mnottertail -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 11:46:46 AM)
Ja, some of the major ones, how are you going to insure pizza deliveries. And lets be a little more punctilious, not all gun 'control' is banning. There are a plethora of ways to make improvements in how we buy, sell, and use guns.

lovmuffin -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 12:47:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Ja, some of the major ones, how are you going to insure pizza deliveries. And lets be a little more punctilious, not all gun 'control' is banning. There are a plethora of ways to make improvements in how we buy, sell, and use guns. Well perhaps you might clue us all in. ETA: Pizza deliveries are Bamas department [8D]

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 12:47:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin That's all fine and dandy but I think the main issue here is all these guys from other countries (maybe not you that I can recall) think it's such a kool idea for The US to model our gun laws after theirs. It's not a kool idea for the US, it is a stupid idea for so many reasons that we have gone 'round and 'round over and over again on this forum. Why is it soo stupid?? Being able to walk around anywhere without fear of someone shooting you is a real freedom that you don't enjoy. Having shopping malls and schools that don't look like prisons or have armed security on every corner is also a lovely feeling. What you call freedom is a paranoid chain where you feel you need them for protection. No doubt you'll come up that age-old chestnut that you need them coz the criminals have them. I got news for you.... When very few people have guns, the criminals tend not to have them either. And because there's virtually none to steal, they tend not to get hold of them. Bama et al will say they need them for self defense. You don't need them for someone who is generally more gob than action. Then of course there's the old argument that dead by knife is just as dead as by gun. I would argue that for most people, you are more likely to survive a knife wound than a gun shot and only with a gun could you kill someone easily from more than a few yards away. There are times and places for guns. Carrying them on public streets or in public places/buildings isn't one of them. If you disallowed all guns from public places you'd probably reduce your gun deaths to less than a quarter of what they currently are. So no banning of guns or any other new restrictions - just banning them from the streets would be a huge beneficial move. Hunting and target practice (on private grounds only) wouldn't be affected. You wouldn't need any "gun free zones" - everywhere in public would be a gun free zone. What I've just proposed is exactly what we have here and across many civilized countries. What Bama mentions in that self defence is not a valid reason for owning one is generally true. The reason being: why would you need a gun for self defense when your assailant isn't likely to be armed with anything more than a lot of bravado and a big gob. Guns breed paranoia and fear and those with them think you need more to combat that paranoia. And don't say it isn't fear because if you were confident that your opposition wasn't armed, you'd have no need for a gun - unless you want it "just because you can". As for that pesky 2nd.... It was written by men and can be changed by men, if they so wished. Many countries have either changed their constitution or ripped it up and started again to meet modern times.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 12:51:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD But owning a hand gun is damed near impossible, and self defence, a basic right that even animals have, is not, according to other Englishmen on here, recognized. Bit no there is no real restrictions there. Would you like some oacean front property in Arizona that I can get for you cheap. It's no more 'near impossible' for a normal person than it is in the US. As for self defense - see my response to muffin. And which animals do you know of that are able to get hold of a hand gun let alone use one? I'd like that ocean-front property [:D]

mnottertail -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 12:55:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Ja, some of the major ones, how are you going to insure pizza deliveries. And lets be a little more punctilious, not all gun 'control' is banning. There are a plethora of ways to make improvements in how we buy, sell, and use guns. Well perhaps you might clue us all in. ETA: Pizza deliveries are Bamas department [8D] Nope, you are incapable of being clued in. The ideas have been rife on this board and in the media.

lovmuffin -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 12:59:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin That's all fine and dandy but I think the main issue here is all these guys from other countries (maybe not you that I can recall) think it's such a kool idea for The US to model our gun laws after theirs. It's not a kool idea for the US, it is a stupid idea for so many reasons that we have gone 'round and 'round over and over again on this forum. Why is it soo stupid?? Being able to walk around anywhere without fear of someone shooting you is a real freedom that you don't enjoy. Having shopping malls and schools that don't look like prisons or have armed security on every corner is also a lovely feeling. What you call freedom is a paranoid chain where you feel you need them for protection. No doubt you'll come up that age-old chestnut that you need them coz the criminals have them. I got news for you.... When very few people have guns, the criminals tend not to have them either. And because there's virtually none to steal, they tend not to get hold of them. Bama et al will say they need them for self defense. You don't need them for someone who is generally more gob than action. Then of course there's the old argument that dead by knife is just as dead as by gun. I would argue that for most people, you are more likely to survive a knife wound than a gun shot and only with a gun could you kill someone easily from more than a few yards away. There are times and places for guns. Carrying them on public streets or in public places/buildings isn't one of them. If you disallowed all guns from public places you'd probably reduce your gun deaths to less than a quarter of what they currently are. So no banning of guns or any other new restrictions - just banning them from the streets would be a huge beneficial move. Hunting and target practice (on private grounds only) wouldn't be affected. You wouldn't need any "gun free zones" - everywhere in public would be a gun free zone. What I've just proposed is exactly what we have here and across many civilized countries. What Bama mentions in that self defence is not a valid reason for owning one is generally true. The reason being: why would you need a gun for self defense when your assailant isn't likely to be armed with anything more than a lot of bravado and a big gob. Guns breed paranoia and fear and those with them think you need more to combat that paranoia. And don't say it isn't fear because if you were confident that your opposition wasn't armed, you'd have no need for a gun - unless you want it "just because you can". As for that pesky 2nd.... It was written by men and can be changed by men, if they so wished. Many countries have either changed their constitution or ripped it up and started again to meet modern times. On good, another poster gone off his meds, and a British one at that. What you posted about life and paranoia in this country is so highly exaggerated it doesn't even come close to the truth. We're talking about the America here on earth. We don't want your fucking gun laws so stir that up in your tea and drink it.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 1:06:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin On good, another poster gone off his meds, and a British one at that. What you posted about life and paranoia in this country is so highly exaggerated it doesn't even come close to the truth. We're talking about the America here on earth. We don't want you fucking gun laws so stir that up in your tea and drink it. Oh goody!! [:D] I'll go sit on my lawn without fear of being shot. Or maybe I'll go into town and browse the malls and grab a coffee - without passing armed guards or fear of being shot. I like my freedom! [8D]

lovmuffin -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 1:08:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Ja, some of the major ones, how are you going to insure pizza deliveries. And lets be a little more punctilious, not all gun 'control' is banning. There are a plethora of ways to make improvements in how we buy, sell, and use guns. Well perhaps you might clue us all in. ETA: Pizza deliveries are Bamas department [8D] Nope, you are incapable of being clued in. The ideas have been rife on this board and in the media. I can go along with what Jff and Kirata said. I'm not too keen on parole for first or second degree murder and it certainly wouldn't hurt to have a better gang strategy. Go after those guns and leave the peacable folks alone. I don't seem to recall anything constructive coming from you.

lovmuffin -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 1:12:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin On good, another poster gone off his meds, and a British one at that. What you posted about life and paranoia in this country is so highly exaggerated it doesn't even come close to the truth. We're talking about the America here on earth. We don't want you fucking gun laws so stir that up in your tea and drink it. Oh goody!! [:D] I'll go sit on my lawn without fear of being shot. Or maybe I'll go into town and browse the malls and grab a coffee - without passing armed guards or fear of being shot. I like my freedom! [8D] And I will do the same [8D] I love my freedom too

mnottertail -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 1:20:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Ja, some of the major ones, how are you going to insure pizza deliveries. And lets be a little more punctilious, not all gun 'control' is banning. There are a plethora of ways to make improvements in how we buy, sell, and use guns. Well perhaps you might clue us all in. ETA: Pizza deliveries are Bamas department [8D] Nope, you are incapable of being clued in. The ideas have been rife on this board and in the media. I can go along with what Jff and Kirata said. I'm not too keen on parole for first or second degree murder and it certainly wouldn't hurt to have a better gang strategy. Go after those guns and leave the peacable folks alone. I don't seem to recall anything constructive coming from you. Yeah, as I said, clueless. Maybe Bama can point you to it, he and I had some discourse on the subject. I think you even popped in to the thread and said some stupid shit. Otherwise. Ain't no help for the helpless and hopeless.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 1:24:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin On good, another poster gone off his meds, and a British one at that. What you posted about life and paranoia in this country is so highly exaggerated it doesn't even come close to the truth. We're talking about the America here on earth. We don't want you fucking gun laws so stir that up in your tea and drink it. Oh goody!! [:D] I'll go sit on my lawn without fear of being shot. Or maybe I'll go into town and browse the malls and grab a coffee - without passing armed guards or fear of being shot. I like my freedom! [8D] And I will do the same [8D] I love my freedom too I don't see that a constant fear of being attacked and wanting/needing a gun for protection is actually much of a freedom. Like a recently released prisoner having to constantly look over your shoulder and wonder if the next person is going to go nuts and start shooting people. That's no freedom at all. That's being a prisoner to a gun-crazed society.

lovmuffin -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 1:39:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin On good, another poster gone off his meds, and a British one at that. What you posted about life and paranoia in this country is so highly exaggerated it doesn't even come close to the truth. We're talking about the America here on earth. We don't want you fucking gun laws so stir that up in your tea and drink it. Oh goody!! [:D] I'll go sit on my lawn without fear of being shot. Or maybe I'll go into town and browse the malls and grab a coffee - without passing armed guards or fear of being shot. I like my freedom! [8D] And I will do the same [8D] I love my freedom too I don't see that a constant fear of being attacked and wanting/needing a gun for protection is actually much of a freedom. Like a recently released prisoner having to constantly look over your shoulder and wonder if the next person is going to go nuts and start shooting people. That's no freedom at all. That's being a prisoner to a gun-crazed society. I think you have some kind of gun derangement syndrome. Once again, we're talking about the USA here on earth. Bamas situation is unique to where he lives. I Don't have any constant fear despite your stupid prisoner analogy. Using the term "gun-crazed society" just shows how truly ignorant you are about life and culture here. Your ranting is stupid and exaggerated farther out into the galaxy than Pluto. Get back on your meds.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 1:44:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin On good, another poster gone off his meds, and a British one at that. What you posted about life and paranoia in this country is so highly exaggerated it doesn't even come close to the truth. We're talking about the America here on earth. We don't want you fucking gun laws so stir that up in your tea and drink it. Oh goody!! [:D] I'll go sit on my lawn without fear of being shot. Or maybe I'll go into town and browse the malls and grab a coffee - without passing armed guards or fear of being shot. I like my freedom! [8D] And I will do the same [8D] I love my freedom too I don't see that a constant fear of being attacked and wanting/needing a gun for protection is actually much of a freedom. Like a recently released prisoner having to constantly look over your shoulder and wonder if the next person is going to go nuts and start shooting people. That's no freedom at all. That's being a prisoner to a gun-crazed society. I think you have some kind of gun derangement syndrome. Once again, we're talking about the USA here on earth. Bamas situation is unique to where he lives. I Don't have any constant fear despite your stupid prisoner analogy. Using the term "gun crazy society" just shows how truly ignorant you are about life and culture here. Your ranting is stupid and exaggerated farther out into the galaxy than Pluto. Get back on your meds. Perhaps you have forgotten that I lived in NC and FL for the best part of 9 months (not as a tourist either). I saw it. I saw it in other 'wonderful' Americans and their attitude. And I don't need meds - I don't have a paranoia and fear to take meds for [:D] And your Jeff Cooper quote is crap. People create the gun problem - not just criminals. How many 'non-criminals' have caused a gun death in the US?? More than you care to want to know. Try looking it up sometime.

BamaD -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 1:59:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin On good, another poster gone off his meds, and a British one at that. What you posted about life and paranoia in this country is so highly exaggerated it doesn't even come close to the truth. We're talking about the America here on earth. We don't want you fucking gun laws so stir that up in your tea and drink it. Oh goody!! [:D] I'll go sit on my lawn without fear of being shot. Or maybe I'll go into town and browse the malls and grab a coffee - without passing armed guards or fear of being shot. I like my freedom! [8D] And I will do the same [8D] I love my freedom too I don't see that a constant fear of being attacked and wanting/needing a gun for protection is actually much of a freedom. Like a recently released prisoner having to constantly look over your shoulder and wonder if the next person is going to go nuts and start shooting people. That's no freedom at all. That's being a prisoner to a gun-crazed society. I think you have some kind of gun derangement syndrome. Once again, we're talking about the USA here on earth. Bamas situation is unique to where he lives. I Don't have any constant fear despite your stupid prisoner analogy. Using the term "gun-crazed society" just shows how truly ignorant you are about life and culture here. Your ranting is stupid and exaggerated farther out into the galaxy than Pluto. Get back on your meds. I don't have constant fear, just constant preparedness. And you are correct, only a small portion of Americans live in a neighborhood that went bad after they moved into it. And mine is geting better. Why, because some people did not think like FD and Joe, they didn't tuck their tails and run, they stuck it out. There were pockets of civilization in the midst of the jungle. Finnaly the cops have started pressing the issue. Last summer one of the houses where the owner always renred to gangbanger wata-bes was bought by a woman who is very carefull about who she lets in there. 5 years ago I owned an island. Now I form the boarder.

lovmuffin -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 2:02:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Ja, some of the major ones, how are you going to insure pizza deliveries. And lets be a little more punctilious, not all gun 'control' is banning. There are a plethora of ways to make improvements in how we buy, sell, and use guns. Well perhaps you might clue us all in. ETA: Pizza deliveries are Bamas department [8D] Nope, you are incapable of being clued in. The ideas have been rife on this board and in the media. I can go along with what Jff and Kirata said. I'm not too keen on parole for first or second degree murder and it certainly wouldn't hurt to have a better gang strategy. Go after those guns and leave the peacable folks alone. I don't seem to recall anything constructive coming from you. Yeah, as I said, clueless. Maybe Bama can point you to it, he and I had some discourse on the subject. I think you even popped in to the thread and said some stupid shit. Otherwise. Ain't no help for the helpless and hopeless. You had discourse ?? Did that include nutsucker, felching and shitbreather ? I don't recall anything of substance you might have said. I was asking you if you had made a contribution to the discusstion. I suppose your obfuscation means no. If I was responding to Bama, I would have asked him.

BamaD -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 2:03:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin On good, another poster gone off his meds, and a British one at that. What you posted about life and paranoia in this country is so highly exaggerated it doesn't even come close to the truth. We're talking about the America here on earth. We don't want you fucking gun laws so stir that up in your tea and drink it. Oh goody!! [:D] I'll go sit on my lawn without fear of being shot. Or maybe I'll go into town and browse the malls and grab a coffee - without passing armed guards or fear of being shot. I like my freedom! [8D] And I will do the same [8D] I love my freedom too I don't see that a constant fear of being attacked and wanting/needing a gun for protection is actually much of a freedom. Like a recently released prisoner having to constantly look over your shoulder and wonder if the next person is going to go nuts and start shooting people. That's no freedom at all. That's being a prisoner to a gun-crazed society. I think you have some kind of gun derangement syndrome. Once again, we're talking about the USA here on earth. Bamas situation is unique to where he lives. I Don't have any constant fear despite your stupid prisoner analogy. Using the term "gun crazy society" just shows how truly ignorant you are about life and culture here. Your ranting is stupid and exaggerated farther out into the galaxy than Pluto. Get back on your meds. Perhaps you have forgotten that I lived in NC and FL for the best part of 9 months (not as a tourist either). I saw it. I saw it in other 'wonderful' Americans and their attitude. And I don't need meds - I don't have a paranoia and fear to take meds for [:D] And your Jeff Cooper quote is crap. People create the gun problem - not just criminals. How many 'non-criminals' have caused a gun death in the US?? More than you care to want to know. Try looking it up sometime. And you went back home thinking that there was nowhere in the US allowed you to drive over 40, and that all cops want British type gun laws. I susspect that you failed to comprehend the nuances of what they said.

lovmuffin -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 2:09:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin On good, another poster gone off his meds, and a British one at that. What you posted about life and paranoia in this country is so highly exaggerated it doesn't even come close to the truth. We're talking about the America here on earth. We don't want you fucking gun laws so stir that up in your tea and drink it. Oh goody!! [:D] I'll go sit on my lawn without fear of being shot. Or maybe I'll go into town and browse the malls and grab a coffee - without passing armed guards or fear of being shot. I like my freedom! [8D] And I will do the same [8D] I love my freedom too I don't see that a constant fear of being attacked and wanting/needing a gun for protection is actually much of a freedom. Like a recently released prisoner having to constantly look over your shoulder and wonder if the next person is going to go nuts and start shooting people. That's no freedom at all. That's being a prisoner to a gun-crazed society. I think you have some kind of gun derangement syndrome. Once again, we're talking about the USA here on earth. Bamas situation is unique to where he lives. I Don't have any constant fear despite your stupid prisoner analogy. Using the term "gun-crazed society" just shows how truly ignorant you are about life and culture here. Your ranting is stupid and exaggerated farther out into the galaxy than Pluto. Get back on your meds. I don't have constant fear, just constant preparedness. And you are correct, only a small portion of Americans live in a neighborhood that went bad after they moved into it. And mine is geting better. Why, because some people did not think like FD and Joe, they didn't tuck their tails and run, they stuck it out. There were pockets of civilization in the midst of the jungle. Finnaly the cops have started pressing the issue. Last summer one of the houses where the owner always renred to gangbanger wata-bes was bought by a woman who is very carefull about who she lets in there. 5 years ago I owned an island. Now I form the boarder. I know exactly what you meant and I don't think you live in paranoia and fear nor did I mean to imply it. It was where FD's exaggerated ramblings are coming from.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 2:10:06 PM)
Sorry Bama, we didn't tuck our tails and run. What we did do was jump a sinking ship to go to higher and safer grounds. It's good that your 'hood is getting better. But I put that down to better policing than residents carrying guns. When I was in the US, the one thing I did notice was the distinct lack of police presence in many areas that I went. We bemoan our police force here (or lack of it) but their presence on the streets and around the neighbourhood was certainly far more prominent that what I observed in the US. I see more cops around our urban and country areas than I did in the main streets of Raleigh, Jax and Tampa. Perhaps there should be a marked increase in police numbers across the whole of the US to make it much safer place to live?? I honestly don't know what the answer is all the while there is a prolification of guns among the general populace. Too many guns and too many idiots with them. (no, that's not a personal dig). ETA: if you need to be in constant preparedness.... that's what people call paranoia. Paranoia: Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory, or beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself .

BamaD -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 2:12:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Ja, some of the major ones, how are you going to insure pizza deliveries. And lets be a little more punctilious, not all gun 'control' is banning. There are a plethora of ways to make improvements in how we buy, sell, and use guns. Well perhaps you might clue us all in. ETA: Pizza deliveries are Bamas department [8D] Yep

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