RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns.

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (Full Version)

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bounty44 -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 2:18:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 ETA: if you need to be in constant preparedness.... that's what people call paranoia. Paranoia: Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory, or beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself . your definition doesn't fit the circumstances. I don't call someone hiking through the desert, carrying water, "paranoid", I call them prepared.

BamaD -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 2:19:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD But owning a hand gun is damed near impossible, and self defence, a basic right that even animals have, is not, according to other Englishmen on here, recognized. Bit no there is no real restrictions there. Would you like some oacean front property in Arizona that I can get for you cheap. It's no more 'near impossible' for a normal person than it is in the US. As for self defense - see my response to muffin. And which animals do you know of that are able to get hold of a hand gun let alone use one? I'd like that ocean-front property [:D] Did I say with guns, my Rott can rip a person to shreads almost as fast as they can be shot to death. Here, a dog gets one free bite, and if self defense is estabilshed they are ok. As for knives, if you are right why did knife muerders in DC skyrocket in DC when they banned handguns? Gun merders went down minutely but knife murders incearsed enough to DOUBLE their murder rate. You say some one can get a gun there as easy as here. Either they can't, or every word you has said about our easy access is a lie.

BamaD -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 2:21:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD But owning a hand gun is damed near impossible, and self defence, a basic right that even animals have, is not, according to other Englishmen on here, recognized. Bit no there is no real restrictions there. Would you like some oacean front property in Arizona that I can get for you cheap. It's no more 'near impossible' for a normal person than it is in the US. As for self defense - see my response to muffin. And which animals do you know of that are able to get hold of a hand gun let alone use one? I'd like that ocean-front property [:D] As for the property, with the things you believe you are a prime customer.

BamaD -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 2:26:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin On good, another poster gone off his meds, and a British one at that. What you posted about life and paranoia in this country is so highly exaggerated it doesn't even come close to the truth. We're talking about the America here on earth. We don't want you fucking gun laws so stir that up in your tea and drink it. Oh goody!! [:D] I'll go sit on my lawn without fear of being shot. Or maybe I'll go into town and browse the malls and grab a coffee - without passing armed guards or fear of being shot. I like my freedom! [8D] And I will do the same [8D] I love my freedom too I don't see that a constant fear of being attacked and wanting/needing a gun for protection is actually much of a freedom. Like a recently released prisoner having to constantly look over your shoulder and wonder if the next person is going to go nuts and start shooting people. That's no freedom at all. That's being a prisoner to a gun-crazed society. I think you have some kind of gun derangement syndrome. Once again, we're talking about the USA here on earth. Bamas situation is unique to where he lives. I Don't have any constant fear despite your stupid prisoner analogy. Using the term "gun-crazed society" just shows how truly ignorant you are about life and culture here. Your ranting is stupid and exaggerated farther out into the galaxy than Pluto. Get back on your meds. I don't have constant fear, just constant preparedness. And you are correct, only a small portion of Americans live in a neighborhood that went bad after they moved into it. And mine is geting better. Why, because some people did not think like FD and Joe, they didn't tuck their tails and run, they stuck it out. There were pockets of civilization in the midst of the jungle. Finnaly the cops have started pressing the issue. Last summer one of the houses where the owner always renred to gangbanger wata-bes was bought by a woman who is very carefull about who she lets in there. 5 years ago I owned an island. Now I form the boarder. I know exactly what you meant and I don't think you live in paranoia and fear nor did I mean to imply it. It was where FD's exaggerated ramblings are coming from. I know that, I was making a preemtive strike agaist anyone tring to twist what you did say.

mnottertail -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 2:30:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 ETA: if you need to be in constant preparedness.... that's what people call paranoia. Paranoia: Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory, or beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself . your definition doesn't fit the circumstances. I don't call someone hiking through the desert, carrying water, "paranoid", I call them prepared. Uh, there aint been a desert in western new york in the time you have been alive, and for several generations prior. There are people who carry water near the ocean. The notion is purely inept. What are you? 4:100K out there? http://www.humanosphere.org/science/2015/10/visualizing-gun-deaths-comparing-u-s-rest-world/ Rather more like carrying grains of sand in your pockets in case Monty Hall will give you $200 to build a desert right where you stand.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 2:37:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD But owning a hand gun is damed near impossible, and self defence, a basic right that even animals have, is not, according to other Englishmen on here, recognized. Bit no there is no real restrictions there. Would you like some oacean front property in Arizona that I can get for you cheap. It's no more 'near impossible' for a normal person than it is in the US. As for self defense - see my response to muffin. And which animals do you know of that are able to get hold of a hand gun let alone use one? I'd like that ocean-front property [:D] Did I say with guns, my Rott can rip a person to shreads almost as fast as they can be shot to death. Here, a dog gets one free bite, and if self defense is estabilshed they are ok. As for knives, if you are right why did knife muerders in DC skyrocket in DC when they banned handguns? Gun merders went down minutely but knife murders incearsed enough to DOUBLE their murder rate. You say some one can get a gun there as easy as here. Either they can't, or every word you has said about our easy access is a lie. Over here, if a dog bites someone, it is destroyed as a dangerous dog. No quibbles, no arguments.......... put down by order of the courts. And that also applies to people owning dogs for self-protection too. Animals don't get a freebie 'self defense' hit/bite first unless it's a police dog on duty. DC knife murders went up to double because you have a shitload of misfits that couldn't get hold of more guns. If I was so inclined (and I'm not), I only need to apply for a gun permit, wait for the obligatory 2 weeks while they scrutinize my history and criminal record, pay the license fee and go buy a gun. Yes.... it is that simple here. But.... you have to declare why you need it, to what use it is being put, and where it and its ammo is being kept. AND, the license is for just that one gun - not an armoury of weapons. If I legitimately owned a legally licensed gun, it is not allowed to be transported or carried in a public place unless it is separated from its ammo and locked in a steel cabinet. This is essential difference between buying/owning a gun here and in the US. Buying one on the black market isn't so easy here because there just aren't that many guns here to get one 'under the radar'. It's not impossible of course, just not so easy as it is in the US.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 2:48:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 ETA: if you need to be in constant preparedness.... that's what people call paranoia. Paranoia: Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory, or beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself . your definition doesn't fit the circumstances. I don't call someone hiking through the desert, carrying water, "paranoid", I call them prepared. Different ball of wax because you know you are likely to die through lack of water in a desert. But pulling a 5,000 gallon tank of water "just in case my flask/bottle runs out" is paranoia. Going for a dip in a lake and taking full scuba gear, a knife and spear gun "just in case you meet a shark" is paranoia. If you think you need a gun for self-defense, unless you are in a war zone, is paranoia. Only in the US would you be thinking this way - the rest of the civilized world doesn't need a gun.

BamaD -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 2:55:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD But owning a hand gun is damed near impossible, and self defence, a basic right that even animals have, is not, according to other Englishmen on here, recognized. Bit no there is no real restrictions there. Would you like some oacean front property in Arizona that I can get for you cheap. It's no more 'near impossible' for a normal person than it is in the US. As for self defense - see my response to muffin. And which animals do you know of that are able to get hold of a hand gun let alone use one? I'd like that ocean-front property [:D] Did I say with guns, my Rott can rip a person to shreads almost as fast as they can be shot to death. Here, a dog gets one free bite, and if self defense is estabilshed they are ok. As for knives, if you are right why did knife muerders in DC skyrocket in DC when they banned handguns? Gun merders went down minutely but knife murders incearsed enough to DOUBLE their murder rate. You say some one can get a gun there as easy as here. Either they can't, or every word you has said about our easy access is a lie. Over here, if a dog bites someone, it is destroyed as a dangerous dog. No quibbles, no arguments.......... put down by order of the courts. And that also applies to people owning dogs for self-protection too. Animals don't get a freebie 'self defense' hit/bite first unless it's a police dog on duty. DC knife murders went up to double because you have a shitload of misfits that couldn't get hold of more guns. If I was so inclined (and I'm not), I only need to apply for a gun permit, wait for the obligatory 2 weeks while they scrutinize my history and criminal record, pay the license fee and go buy a gun. Yes.... it is that simple here. But.... you have to declare why you need it, to what use it is being put, and where it and its ammo is being kept. AND, the license is for just that one gun - not an armoury of weapons. If I legitimately owned a legally licensed gun, it is not allowed to be transported or carried in a public place unless it is separated from its ammo and locked in a steel cabinet. This is essential difference between buying/owning a gun here and in the US. Buying one on the black market isn't so easy here because there just aren't that many guns here to get one 'under the radar'. It's not impossible of course, just not so easy as it is in the US. Does that include handguns? And you just confirmed that, unlike civilized countries you don't recogniz sef defence. BTW I dpn't care how you do it there. So if you still have misfits you will syill have muders, particularly if the victims arn't allowed to defend themselves. But thats right, you don't believe in selfe defence for anyone but yourself.

BamaD -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 2:57:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 ETA: if you need to be in constant preparedness.... that's what people call paranoia. Paranoia: Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory, or beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself . your definition doesn't fit the circumstances. I don't call someone hiking through the desert, carrying water, "paranoid", I call them prepared. Different ball of wax because you know you are likely to die through lack of water in a desert. But pulling a 5,000 gallon tank of water "just in case my flask/bottle runs out" is paranoia. Going for a dip in a lake and taking full scuba gear, a knife and spear gun "just in case you meet a shark" is paranoia. If you think you need a gun for self-defense, unless you are in a war zone, is paranoia. Only in the US would you be thinking this way - the rest of the civilized world doesn't need a gun. So Using a seat belt is paranoia. Having a spare tire is paranoia. Changing your oil is paranoia. Having a fire extinguisher is paranoia. Locking your doors is paranoia. Having a gun safe is paranoia. Having trigger locks is paranoia. Wearing a coat in the winter is paranoia. Get the point?

MisterP61 -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 2:58:59 PM)
http://news.yahoo.com/colorado-shooting-victims-were-recovering-addicts-cyclist-224245172.html;_ylt=A0LEVzc46jdWQ50AYExXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEybDZvNmFxBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjEyMDNfMQRzZWMDc2M- Yeah FD. You're right. These people who were shot on Saturday would have been paranoid for carrying a gun. Give me a break OK? People who will do harm don't give fuck number 1 about any law.

BamaD -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 3:27:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MisterP61 http://news.yahoo.com/colorado-shooting-victims-were-recovering-addicts-cyclist-224245172.html;_ylt=A0LEVzc46jdWQ50AYExXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEybDZvNmFxBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjEyMDNfMQRzZWMDc2M- Yeah FD. You're right. These people who were shot on Saturday would have been paranoid for carrying a gun. Give me a break OK? People who will do harm don't give fuck number 1 about any law. As was the guy in Chicago (who had a cc permit) who shot an armed robber, how could he acctualy know the robber was going to shoot anyone, maybe he was bluffing. You have to sacrifice at least one victim before you can fight back.

stef -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 3:37:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Perhaps you have forgotten that I lived in NC and FL for the best part of 9 months (not as a tourist either). Wow, 9 whole months! Is that where your mastery of pellet gun ballistics comes from.

lovmuffin -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 3:49:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Perhaps you have forgotten that I lived in NC and FL for the best part of 9 months (not as a tourist either). I saw it. I saw it in other 'wonderful' Americans and their attitude. And I don't need meds - I don't have a paranoia and fear to take meds for And your Jeff Cooper quote is crap. People create the gun problem - not just criminals. How many 'non-criminals' have caused a gun death in the US?? More than you care to want to know. Try looking it up sometime. 1) 9 months here in the US and you didn't get shot ?? I'm so glad you're alive. 2) Being prepared has nothing to do with the definition of paranoia as you stated in your made up definition posting to Bama. 3) My signature line is not full of crap, you are. It simply means that taking criminals off the street does a lot more good than taking guns from peacable citizens. 4) How many non-criminals have caused a gun death in the US you ask ? The ones where it was ruled as a justifiable homicide.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 3:51:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Does that include handguns? Yes. But only certain ones - not every handgun on the market. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD And you just confirmed that, unlike civilized countries you don't recogniz sef defence. We do. Just not a good enough reason to own a gun. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD BTW I dpn't care how you do it there. We know you don't care all the while you can have your guns. The gun death stats prove every argument you've ever thrown at it. The US has by far the biggest gun deaths of every civilized nation in the world. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD So if you still have misfits you will syill have muders, particularly if the victims arn't allowed to defend themselves. But thats right, you don't believe in selfe defence for anyone but yourself. We do defend ourselves. Just not with guns because they are unnecessary in civilized countries outside of the US.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 3:57:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MisterP61 Yeah FD. You're right. These people who were shot on Saturday would have been paranoid for carrying a gun. Give me a break OK? People who will do harm don't give fuck number 1 about any law. Yep you are dead right there. No argument from me on that one. But explain why the US has shitloads more gun deaths than anywhere else in the civilized world?? More misfits?? Possibly. The underlying fact is that the US, with by far the biggest gun ownership per capita, also happens to have by far the biggest number of gun deaths per capita than anywhere in the civilized world. If, as many pro-gun people claim, that guns stop gun deaths, why is the US figure by far the worst?? If what is claimed is true, your figures should be exemplary; but they aren't. It is quite the contrary - which disproves the claims.

BamaD -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 4:09:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: MisterP61 Yeah FD. You're right. These people who were shot on Saturday would have been paranoid for carrying a gun. Give me a break OK? People who will do harm don't give fuck number 1 about any law. Yep you are dead right there. No argument from me on that one. But explain why the US has shitloads more gun deaths than anywhere else in the civilized world?? More misfits?? Possibly. The underlying fact is that the US, with by far the biggest gun ownership per capita, also happens to have by far the biggest number of gun deaths per capita than anywhere in the civilized world. If, as many pro-gun people claim, that guns stop gun deaths, why is the US figure by far the worst?? If what is claimed is true, your figures should be exemplary; but they aren't. It is quite the contrary - which disproves the claims. More misfits, that is the problem. Taking one fact does not prove your point. As I pointed out, and you agreed to, banning guns in DC not only didn't help the citizens because the misfits caused the crime rate to double, including murders by using other weapons. Get rid of the misfits, (as you call them) and you get rid of the problem. Get rid of the guns, and you just allows the miscreants (as I call them) and the gun problem will go away. Only specific guns, only for a special reason, never for self defence, self defence is only allowed if the victim uses a means that will get them injured. You have gotten so "civilized" that you think the life of a criminal is as important and the life of anyone else. Watch "Watership Down" and think about how you live in the warren. You would have fit right in with the city council of "High Noon".

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 4:16:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin 1) 9 months here in the US and you didn't get shot ?? I'm so glad you're alive. 2) Being prepared has nothing to do with the definition of paranoia as you stated in your made up definition posting to Bama. 3) My signature line is not full of crap, you are. It simply means that taking criminals off the street does a lot more good than taking guns from peacable citizens. 4) How many non-criminals have caused a gun death in the US you ask ? The ones where it was ruled as a justifiable homicide. The definition was from Wiki and similar from the oxford dictionary, the urban dictionary, and Merriam Webster. Wasn't 'my' definition. Being prepared is one thing. Having to be constantly prepared is quite another. If all the citizens that owned guns were peaceable, I would agree with you. The stats of gun deaths, often caused by (at the time) 'peaceable and law-abiding citizens' proves otherwise. What does that tell you?? That not all citizens with guns are peaceable. It's not just the criminals - it's other misfit citizens too. So when you get all your misfits under control so they can't have a gun or get their hands on one, that will bring your stats down quite a lot. If you take the guns off the streets, criminals or otherwise, that would also diminish the gun deaths considerably. Just like drink or drugs and vehicles. They tightened up the laws so that people need to be tested before they can drive a car. If they get caught without a license, or are incapable of driving due to drink or drugs, they are stopped from driving (at least for a while). It doesn't cure every drink/drive death but it sure cut the numbers down. So what is wrong in applying equally stringent laws/rules/regulations etc to guns - all guns, not just a select few or in select areas. Is that such a hardship to make the country safer without affecting the rights of people to buy and own them? I'll tell you why... because of redneck pig-headedness attitudes. You would sooner see someone die from a gun by a 'civilized and law-abiding citizen' than curtail your use of guns. It's happening all too often and nobody over there is doing fuck all about it in sensible terms. Rid the criminals of their guns?? Sure!! Get more armed police or form a militia and go hunt the fuckers down. Coz your government isn't doing shit about it. Neither are the sensible citizens. But something needs to be done.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 4:27:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD More misfits, that is the problem. Taking one fact does not prove your point. As I pointed out, and you agreed to, banning guns in DC not only didn't help the citizens because the misfits caused the crime rate to double, including murders by using other weapons. Get rid of the misfits, (as you call them) and you get rid of the problem. Get rid of the guns, and you just allows the miscreants (as I call them) and the gun problem will go away. I didn't claim the gun problem would go away. It's never an all-or-nothing fix. Take the guns off the streets, that will help tremendously. As MrP said, criminals don't give a shit about laws. So if you severely limit the places where they can get guns, that would help. All too often the gun incidents are from people who legitimately bought the guns or they stole/borrowed from someone else who legitimately bought them. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Only specific guns, only for a special reason, never for self defence, self defence is only allowed if the victim uses a means that will get them injured. Who said they would get injured?? I didn't. You assumed it because it didn't involve a gun. As I commented earlier, with virtually no guns to be had, most assailants are full of bluster and bravado and a big mouth. Of course you can't (or won't) see that because your philosophy is more guns to defend against other guns. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You have gotten so "civilized" that you think the life of a criminal is as important and the life of anyone else. Watch "Watership Down" and think about how you live in the warren. You would have fit right in with the city council of "High Noon". I've seen Watership Down dozens of times. And nowhere do I state or imply that the criminal is as important as the victim. They deserve all they get - but not dead. Being alive to face your crime is more important than carting a coffin. Besides which, the right to life is part of the Geneva Convention - even those criminals and murderers we so much despise.

lovmuffin -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 4:38:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Does that include handguns? Yes. But only certain ones - not every handgun on the market. Full of crap as usual. The only place on the mainland where you can own a standard handgun is Northern Ireland. Everywhere else you have to have a long barrel added to it and a rod sticking out of the grip like a shoulder stock would except it's just a metal rod, not a shoulder stock. Long guns are limited to 3 rounds and center fire long guns can't be semi auto. How fucked up is that ?

Kirata -> RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. (11/2/2015 4:43:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 If you take the guns off the streets, criminals or otherwise, that would also diminish the gun deaths considerably. Ohferchrissake, stop flogging this stupid tautology. What difference would it make in terms of human lives if gun deaths went to zero and the homicide rate stayed the same? Do you care about human lives, or are you only just obsessed with guns? K.

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