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RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/6/2016 1:04:55 PM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


For the record, a christian's motivation is - I have found something that brings me great joy and I would like to share it with you.

...

No matter what your personal experience is of the christian faith - I don't see the reason to be angry for someone that earnestly wants good things for you.


In my opinion any religion is a strictly private matter.

And I do not want yours to be forced on me. Earnestly. You can keep it but keep it to yourself. Thanks but NO thanks.

This is public exposure of things that should be kept private.

I have the same right to decide what things are good things for me than you have for deciding your good things for yourself - I do neither want nor need yours.


I was just wondering if this post was your honestly held beliefs? If so, they should be kept to yourself, also.

See how that works to build bridges?



Michael


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RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/6/2016 1:07:13 PM   
bounty44


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quote:

All of those studies are very much biased.
I didn't see any independent sources or those that were not obviously religiously based.



how did I know you were going to say something like that.

forgetting for a moment you didn't care to go below the surface layer, I just posted this:

"the studies referenced in those links are university/academic or otherwise "non-Christian" studies. if you don't trust the sources to report the results accurately, you can go right to the horse's mouth (which is preferable actually) to see if they are speaking the truth or not. "

you think the "atheist times" is going to be reporting on that stuff? or www.ihatechristianity.com?

sources need to be considered yes, but if they are biased, then show it. it doesn't suffice to just say it. otherwise, deal with the content. its academically unacceptable to dismiss it out of hand because you don't approve of where it comes from.







< Message edited by bounty44 -- 2/6/2016 1:09:04 PM >

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RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/6/2016 1:11:09 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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And here are some non-christian sources that completely contract those that you posted -

Discovery.com: Atheists typically fancy themselves to be an intelligent bunch, so it'll hearten them to know that a recent review of decades of research over 63 studies has found that atheists are on average more intelligent than believers
Independent.co.uk: Religious people are less intelligent than atheists, according to analysis of scores of scientific studies stretching back over decades
Wiki: Using data from a U.S. study of 6,825 adolescents, the authors found that atheists scored 6 IQ points higher than non-atheists
Psychologytoday.com: why religious people are generally less intelligent
Livescience.com: Religion Doesn't Make People More Moral, Study Finds
Medicaldaily.com: A review of scientific studies finds that people who hold a more naturalistic view of the world are generally smarter than those who believe in god
Huffingtonpost: More than half of Britons believe that religion does more harm than good
And from one of your own sites (christianpost.com): Children in religious homes are more punitive and less generous than their non-religious peers, claims a new study published in the journal Current Biology, saying they found no basis for the popular assumption that children from religious households are more altruistic and kind toward others


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RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/6/2016 2:08:52 PM   
Cinnamongirl67


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quote:

ORIGINAL: satanscharmer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
no, Christians are working to prevent the murder of unborn babies.

I personally find this part really strange. God commited murder of babies himself. I believe he approves of it. He has executed it himself during Moses Era! I don't think the Christian God disapprove of abortion of innocent babies. He has proven it by his own actions.


What God does is his domain, his prerogative.
What he has done is told us what to do. "Thou shalt not murder." The Christian belief is that God is the author of life. We shall not kill what God has created.

We don't have the option of a la carte belief; we can only be faithful.


Why doesn't that belief extend to things such as life support?
Man should not kill, but he's allowed to intervene and give or extend life?


When someone can stay alive only by a vent machine, can not expel toxins from their own body, and have no brain activity, it's only technology keeping them alive. In those situations that's where technology over exceeds its use and is quite sad. If they gave had so much injury they do not even know they are alive, a nature death is their right.

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RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/6/2016 2:24:31 PM   
bounty44


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i suppose it was too much to expect you would have dealt honestly with the content of what I posted. i wont make that mistake again.

if you go back and read carefully, you'll see there is not one thing that you posted that contradicts anything i have said, or negatively critiques or disproves the information in the studies i shared.

claiming and showing that Christian kids are better students is not disproven by showing that atheists are generally smarter as measured by IQ tests.

however that said i'll at least address a couple of your links.

half your wiki page section are criticisms of the methodology of the study you seem to want to hang your hat on. here's an example:

quote:

The Lynn et al. study has been criticized by Artificial Intelligence researcher Randy Olson who has noted that the correlation between national religiosity and intelligence is weak. The correlation between wealth and intelligence is stronger and more suited. He notes that many of the countries with lower intelligence scores are less developed and that countries with 20% atheists or more flat line rather than increase in intelligence.[5] When looking at Kanazawa's paper on individual religiosity, or atheism, and intelligence, Olson noted that both the most religious and atheists were all within the bounds of "average intelligence" (90-109) and from a practical point, none are distinguishable from the other.[5]

The Lynn et al. paper has also been criticized by Professor Gordon Lynch, director of the Centre for Religion and Contemporary Society from London's Birkbeck College, who expressed concern that the study failed to take into account a complex range of social, economic and historical factors, each of which has been shown to interact with religion and IQ in different ways.[4]

Gallup surveys, for example, have found that the world's poorest countries are consistently the most religious, perhaps because religion plays a more functional role (helping people cope) in poorer nations.[6]


as to your "moral" study:

(i didn't make a claim about morality either)

quote:

"Researchers asked 1,252 adults of different religious and political backgrounds in the United States and Canada to record the good and bad deeds they committed, witnessed, learned about or were the target of throughout the day."

Wisneski and his fellow researchers found that religious and nonreligious people commit similar numbers of moral acts.


there is no definition of what a moral act is such that the reader can accept or reject the author's use of it as a valid indicator of morality. you apparently want to take the author's word for it. nor does your link provide raw data so the reader can compare those "similar numbers." a search for "morality study" on the site gives no hits and a search for the author's name doesn't get you to the study either.

now, if you want to deal with the Christian kids being better students, doing less drugs and alcohol, Christians being happier, having better marriages, being more involved with their kids, having better physical and psychological health, less suicide, less crime, and better neighbors and citizens---have at it, maybe someone else will enjoy reading it.


< Message edited by bounty44 -- 2/6/2016 2:33:34 PM >

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/6/2016 2:27:15 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

In my youth I was a skeptic. I prayed if you're out there - prove it. Make it impossible for me not to believe....

Well in my opinion, that's the only correct attitude to take toward the question. But few seem to do so. Most seem to think that they already know. In some cases they "know" that there is no God because they suffer from the conceit that they've figured out the ultimate nature of the universe, and in other cases they "know" that there is a God because what they really believe in is a book that says so.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/6/2016 2:28:18 PM >

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RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/6/2016 2:37:36 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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None of what you posted and cherry-picked supports your claim either.

But most of what I posted does seem to corroborate that Atheists are more intelligent than theists no matter how tenuous those links are. And at least they are from a non-religious/biased standpoint.
It also shows that children from religious backgrounds are less intuitive and generous than their non-religious counterparts.
And, at least over here where religion is more separated from the state than the US, that a majority believe that religion is more troublesome and destructive than non-religion.

And considering this thread is titled "Freedom From Atheism!", it is more on target that those biased links you posted and defies your belief that religion is "better" somehow.


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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/6/2016 3:31:22 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/on_the_front_lines_of_the_culture_wars/2011/03/why-do-church-kids-make-better-grades.html

http://www.christianpost.com/news/christians-are-happier-more-socially-connected-than-atheists-twitter-study-reveals-98526/

http://www.creationtips.com/christianadvantage.html

http://www.christianpost.com/news/report-christians-live-healthier-longer-49976/

https://www.thinkingchristian.net/C278308471/E20061208191002/index.html

http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_charity

http://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/evangelicals-give-more-to-charity-study-finds.html

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/news/2009/05/religious-people-make-better-c.php


While appreciated, these are questionable sources as they are quite obviously biased.




Do you discount it because it comes from a Christian source? So quoting a muslim source is more authoritative? Even tho it references a Harvard study?
Thats like saying a scientific study is biased because a scientist made it. Shouldn't it really be experiment/the data that says whether the conclusion is valid.

Dismissing it out of hand means *you* are biased, nothing else.


Yes, I would question if "Christian Headlines" is accurately reporting Christian news in a non-positive light, much like I would question "Democratic Headlines" to accurately report Republican news and "Republican Headlines" to accurately report news on the Democratic party.

If you'd like I'm sure I could cite various pro-atheist sites that refute all studies provided, and I'm pretty certain you'd think the same: the source is somewhat biased.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/6/2016 3:39:38 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
...
now, if you want to deal with the Christian kids being better students, doing less drugs and alcohol, Christians being happier, having better marriages, being more involved with their kids, having better physical and psychological health, less suicide, less crime, and better neighbors and citizens---have at it, maybe someone else will enjoy reading it.



On its face your assertion is false simply because Christians outnumber atheists; atheists comprise maybe 3% of the US population. Thus, simply due to the numbers involved, more Christians are doing the exact opposite of what you've stated than are non-believers.

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/6/2016 4:43:10 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

In my youth I was a skeptic. I prayed if you're out there - prove it. Make it impossible for me not to believe....

Well in my opinion, that's the only correct attitude to take toward the question. But few seem to do so. Most seem to think that they already know. In some cases they "know" that there is no God because they suffer from the conceit that they've figured out the ultimate nature of the universe, and in other cases they "know" that there is a God because what they really believe in is a book that says so.

K.



That strikes me as pretty counterintuitive, K. I think that average person is going to go through the 'Well, come on, prove that you exist' phase when relatively young - still a kid, in fact, in a lot of cases.

It's not until you're in your early twenties that you figure out the Truth about the Universe (before tearing it up, of course, by the age of 30).


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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/6/2016 11:43:47 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: satanscharmer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
no, Christians are working to prevent the murder of unborn babies.

I personally find this part really strange. God commited murder of babies himself. I believe he approves of it. He has executed it himself during Moses Era! I don't think the Christian God disapprove of abortion of innocent babies. He has proven it by his own actions.


What God does is his domain, his prerogative.
What he has done is told us what to do. "Thou shalt not murder." The Christian belief is that God is the author of life. We shall not kill what God has created.

We don't have the option of a la carte belief; we can only be faithful.


Why doesn't that belief extend to things such as life support?
Man should not kill, but he's allowed to intervene and give or extend life?


Thats not an accurate depiction of any Christian denomination that I am aware.

I suspect you are planning to refer to the Schiavo case. But I think you missed the point of that case, which I would advance as the following.

a. You had a person that wanted to remove life support in contravention of others in the family that did not. I'm not sure that in these circumstances the state should intervene on behalf of the side wishing death. If it is solely a question of the other family members wishing to pay for it - why not allow them to maintain life support.

If the family is asking for public support, then I think we must use the same level of scrutiny that applies to late in life bypass surgeries, chemo treatment etc. Err on the side of generosity when we can.

b. There is a difference between what one may do and what is required to do. No christian doctrine holds AFAIK that life support must be extended. But I think most would agree to do to be as generous as they could.

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RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/6/2016 11:48:10 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/on_the_front_lines_of_the_culture_wars/2011/03/why-do-church-kids-make-better-grades.html

http://www.christianpost.com/news/christians-are-happier-more-socially-connected-than-atheists-twitter-study-reveals-98526/

http://www.creationtips.com/christianadvantage.html

http://www.christianpost.com/news/report-christians-live-healthier-longer-49976/

https://www.thinkingchristian.net/C278308471/E20061208191002/index.html

http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_charity

http://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/evangelicals-give-more-to-charity-study-finds.html

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/news/2009/05/religious-people-make-better-c.php


While appreciated, these are questionable sources as they are quite obviously biased.




Do you discount it because it comes from a Christian source? So quoting a muslim source is more authoritative? Even tho it references a Harvard study?
Thats like saying a scientific study is biased because a scientist made it. Shouldn't it really be experiment/the data that says whether the conclusion is valid.

Dismissing it out of hand means *you* are biased, nothing else.


Yes, I would question if "Christian Headlines" is accurately reporting Christian news in a non-positive light, much like I would question "Democratic Headlines" to accurately report Republican news and "Republican Headlines" to accurately report news on the Democratic party.

If you'd like I'm sure I could cite various pro-atheist sites that refute all studies provided, and I'm pretty certain you'd think the same: the source is somewhat biased.



Sure. But I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. Ie refuse to read or consider.

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RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/7/2016 12:11:04 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

In my youth I was a skeptic. I prayed if you're out there - prove it. Make it impossible for me not to believe....

Well in my opinion, that's the only correct attitude to take toward the question. But few seem to do so. Most seem to think that they already know. In some cases they "know" that there is no God because they suffer from the conceit that they've figured out the ultimate nature of the universe, and in other cases they "know" that there is a God because what they really believe in is a book that says so.

K.



For people who are certain that (whatever is in their imaginations since they never elaborate on what constitutes 'proof') is the only way, means, or method that God would present proof, and that requirement demands that God present to them proof rather than any initiative for them to discover proof. (Keeping in mind someone never finds what they dont look for, and ironically even in court one must perform discovery to obtain proof)

Its reasonable to ask how would anyone expect God to give them this 'proof'?

Seems to me a better approach when one cant wrap their minds around something is to ask themselves 'what did I miss, overlook, or fail to comprehend'?

Which brings us full circle and asks the question how or what do they need from God and what do they expect God to do exactly that will make it impossible for them not to believe?

I thought it was general knowledge that God transcends the material world, yet so many want some kind of material, something they can drop on the foot and break a toe with.




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 2/7/2016 12:34:24 AM >


_____________________________

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Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/7/2016 12:25:37 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

In my opinion any religion is a strictly private matter.

And I do not want yours to be forced on me. Earnestly. You can keep it but keep it to yourself. Thanks but NO thanks.

This is public exposure of things that should be kept private.

I have the same right to decide what things are good things for me than you have for deciding your good things for yourself - I do neither want nor need yours.



Religion is both private and public.
Its starts with you, and you exercise it in your private home.
It becomes political when you exercise it in the public realm and some one says 'hey you cant (or have to)" do this or that according to their religion when in public despite the fact the actions would cause no injury to anything but the overlord authority of the state. However you have little to no private today, the gubblemint that is chartered to protect those rights instead invaded those rights and made much of your private life the business of the public. When the gubblemint creates a statute dictating especially in the arena of morals how one shall conduct themselves they dictate their religious values on private parties and penalizes them with jail time and fines if they do not conform. The constitution in the 1st amendment was set up to protect your religion as long as you did not cause tangible damage or harm so you would not become a subject of the state religion of the time. The government claims to be atheist btw.



< Message edited by Real0ne -- 2/7/2016 12:38:47 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/7/2016 12:40:29 AM   
ifmaz


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Joined: 7/22/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Sure. But I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. Ie refuse to read or consider.


Were you looking over my shoulder? Do you know if I did or did not read the links provided?

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RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/7/2016 12:44:29 AM   
DominantWrestler


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Imo, asking God for self centered blessings or miracles in prayer defies the will of God, so asking God for material pleasures is hypocrisy and sinful.

And remember the violation of rights commonly called the Patriot Act

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RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/7/2016 12:46:30 AM   
DominantWrestler


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Or, put differently, ask not what God's Creation can do for you, but ask what You can do for God's Creation

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RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/7/2016 1:24:46 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
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@RO

quote:

It becomes political when you exercise it in the public realm and some one says 'hey you cant (or have to)" do this or that according to their religion when in public despite the fact the actions would cause no injury to anything but the overlord authority of the state.


When it becomes public it infringes upon the rights of nonbelievers or other-believers. When I was in grade school we were required to takes turns standing before the class in a public school and recite some crap from the Christian Bible. Thanks to Mad Marilyn Murray who had the stones to stand up against the churches and take it to the Supreme Court.

The only true national religion America has is American Exceptionalism which brings us into a continuing, needless Capitalist war that kills hundreds of thousands of people and forces as many into homelessness as refugees from their birth lands.

Oh say can you see the Republican Candidates toadying to the religionists for their votes? I hope Bernie wins and reveals he is an atheist.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 2/7/2016 1:29:06 AM >

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RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/7/2016 1:46:03 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler
so asking God for material pleasures is hypocrisy and sinful.



Fortunately, asking Buddha for material pleasures is pretty much what it's about!

I think Buddha is like the only cool higher being, who is happy being your magical genie granting wishes! Without needing or wanting anything in return. He doesn't even expect you to believe in him or love him.

Like seriously, his so much cooler!

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Freedom From Atheism! - 2/7/2016 1:47:55 AM   
CodeOfSilence


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Wasn't *buddhism* about going all Zen and leaving the material World alone?

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Profile   Post #: 180
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