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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 2/22/2016 11:50:45 AM   
Cell


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I thought apple brought Jobs back because they were dying not because he was likeable. Granted I haven't seen the movies... But anyway, he was more competent... he was the navigator plotting the course. I doubt anyone else could have gotten that ship out of the shit and apple knew it.
Far as I know... not a Jobs expert =/

Hmm, I wish JeffBC was here. I'm pretty sure he's had a lot more leadership experience than me... would be interesting to hear his thoughts on it.
But as for me... I'd like to know what point are you talking about when you say 'beyond a point' and what do you mean exactly when you refer to personality.

I'd say personality is a pretty big factor in all facets of life. Dominance, Submission, Art, Parenthood, Sports etc.. but I'm assuming you have something specific in mind.


< Message edited by Cell -- 2/22/2016 12:08:43 PM >

(in reply to SuaveGentleman)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 2/22/2016 12:14:37 PM   
dreamlady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuaveGentleman

. . . while a leader does need to be competent, I think it is very important to be "likeable" in the sense that people willingly follow his lead, and trust his foresight. If people do not like him, they will not have that trust to follow. Competence at one point just levels off. Think of Steve Jobs.

HBR has multiple studies that show that beyond a point, it is personality and not competence that matters.

Steve Jobs is more of the poster boy for the man who gets chosen to do a job based solely on his competence and business acumen DESPITE having lousy people skills. I've always heard that he was not well-liked.

The likeability factor alone will only take you so far (and how much of a brown-noser you are has nothing to do with possessing leadership abilities).
Competence alone can work against you also. You can be so competent at your job that you are kept right where you are, appeased by a bonus on top of your raises here and there.

None of this is anything new. In order to get ahead in the long haul, you have to have a combination of expertise, reliability, and people skills, as well as creative initiative in problem-solving. How many times have you heard through the (office) grapevine that so-and-so was passed over for a higher-level management promotion because that person has a crummy rep for lacking adequate people skills?

Nevertheless, I'm still going with charisma. Subs as followers are magnetically attracted to Dominants whom they perceive they can trust as being a competent and (hopefully emotionally stable) leader, not as their new best buddy.


DreamLady

_____________________________

Love is born with the pleasure of looking at each other, it is fed with the necessity of seeing each other, it is concluded with the impossibility of separation. ~José Marti

(in reply to SuaveGentleman)
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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 2/22/2016 1:00:25 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady


What there are, in BDSM, are a lot of male Tops who want to believe that they are Dominant, the wannabe Dominants, the wannabe Master who lacks self-mastery.


I agree with this. I think there are a lot of fetishists that want to believe that it makes them Dominant or submissive.

For me Dominance isn't having him tie me up and hit me with a flogger, it's about the day to day stuff. And the smaller the stuff, sometimes the harder to let go.


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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 2/22/2016 2:26:44 PM   
DocStrange


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady

I believe that the missing vital ingredient here is what constitutes "charisma" and not "likeability" as such.
That's what makes an exemplary leader AND what separates a mediocre or aspiring Dominant from someone who has a confident and self-assured Dominant personality in whatever walk of life.


DreamLady


I think you hit the nail on the head. I was racking my brain for the word last night and could not come up with a word to describe what I was thinking. The gift of the written or spoken word is certainly not my forte :( I do wish I was much better at that.

I am also looking at it from the dynamic differences between Leadership of a Group versus Dominant Leadership. Being a Dominant and having a submissive is a different dynamic that being a boss and having people work for you. There are similarities, but it is not the same. In the M/s dynamic the 2 or more people I am assuming have agreed to the dynamic between them. In a work environment, you do not usually get to choose who works for you, or who is going to be your boss. Outside of work, maybe in a club, organization, politics, the Leader and follower may be linked by a common cause/desire they believe in, but no formal agreement between the 2 of them.

In case of the Leader/follower where there is no mutual agreement towards one another. In this type of dynamic, the Leader must find a way to get the people to follow him/her. Here is where the charisma and personality comes in.

Can a good Dominant possess those qualities? Yes, certainly. Then the questions shifts to “Can a good Dominant not have those particular qualities”? For me that answer is yes also. I can see a Dominant having a very good one on one dynamic with his/her s but not having the talent to “rally the troops” to a cause.



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(in reply to dreamlady)
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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 2/22/2016 5:12:43 PM   
dreamlady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange

Can a good Dominant possess those qualities? Yes, certainly. Then the questions shifts to “Can a good Dominant not have those particular qualities”? For me that answer is yes also. I can see a Dominant having a very good one on one dynamic with his/her s but not having the talent to “rally the troops” to a cause.

Let me also add that leadership charisma is not the only kind of charisma there is.

Having a charismatic personality isn't confined to the leadership model. A submissive personality could just as soon possess charisma, that "it" factor (beyond that of animal magnetism, although those with charisma are usually found to be sexually attractive to others).


DreamLady

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Love is born with the pleasure of looking at each other, it is fed with the necessity of seeing each other, it is concluded with the impossibility of separation. ~José Marti

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 2/23/2016 2:03:18 AM   
Greta75


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FR

For me a good dominant is a good leader, period!

To me, being dominant means, you are the leader of the relationship.

If your submissive is the leader of your relationship, then how are you dominating?

So like, she leads, and you dominate?

I don't get this!

And yes, I think he needs to be good at leading at work and at home, regardless. Just be an over all good leader.




(in reply to SuaveGentleman)
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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 2/23/2016 6:57:04 AM   
Cell


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The confusion you're having is because (like most people here) you're saying a dominant is [fill in the blank], or a good dominant does this/that. It's all just imposing your (your =most people here) personal sensibilities on other people. Like... To say someone is a bad dominant for example. So, what exactly? They are a dominant and yet they are bad at it? Because they aren't (charismatic or have leadership skills or engender respect?) [fill in blank]

I don't think that's a good way of looking at things at all. In my book a dominant is someone with power and influence over a submissive. I think all this talk of what's 'good' is actually you guys projecting your own ideals. Which is fine as long as it's confined to your own personal wishlist but what I think everyone needs to have a think about is what it means for someone to be your dominant and how that doesn't translate into universally dominant or 'everyone's dominant'. I don't know what the hell I am but it isn't contingent on the sensibilities of submissives that's for sure.

(in reply to Greta75)
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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 2/23/2016 2:02:52 PM   
Svale


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuaveGentleman

I know this notion is all but too common in literature, but truly, do you feel good dominants are good leaders? (The opposite obviously would be a poor generalization).


What do your experiences say?



In short: no.

(in reply to SuaveGentleman)
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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 2/23/2016 2:31:42 PM   
dreamlady


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Yes, you are absolutely right. Dominance is relative, and entirely subjective. Leadership is also relative to the leader/follower authority model, the chain of command as it were.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cell
The confusion you're having is because (like most people here) you're saying a dominant is [fill in the blank], or a good dominant does this/that. It's all just imposing your (your =most people here) personal sensibilities on other people. Like... To say someone is a bad dominant for example. So, what exactly? They are a dominant and yet they are bad at it? Because they aren't (charismatic or have leadership skills or engender respect?) [fill in blank]

I don't think that's a good way of looking at things at all. In my book a dominant is someone with power and influence over a submissive. I think all this talk of what's 'good' is actually you guys projecting your own ideals. Which is fine as long as it's confined to your own personal wishlist but what I think everyone needs to have a think about is what it means for someone to be your dominant and how that doesn't translate into universally dominant or 'everyone's dominant'. I don't know what the hell I am but it isn't contingent on the sensibilities of submissives that's for sure.


None of this diminishes what each of us seeks or aspires to be in a Dominant or as a leader of our D/s relationship dynamic. In whatever capacity, it is a dynamic involving power and authority. If it didn't, then it would be a peer-level egalitarian dynamic instead, or else compartmentalized into bedroom D/s. There's nothing wrong with bedroom D/s and that sort of a D/s relationship dynamic works out fine for many. Then there are those who seek D/s outside of the confines of the bedroom, or vice versa.

DreamLady

_____________________________

Love is born with the pleasure of looking at each other, it is fed with the necessity of seeing each other, it is concluded with the impossibility of separation. ~José Marti

(in reply to Cell)
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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 2/23/2016 4:22:31 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cell

The confusion you're having is because (like most people here) you're saying a dominant is [fill in the blank], or a good dominant does this/that. It's all just imposing your (your =most people here) personal sensibilities on other people. Like... To say someone is a bad dominant for example. So, what exactly? They are a dominant and yet they are bad at it? Because they aren't (charismatic or have leadership skills or engender respect?) [fill in blank]

I don't think that's a good way of looking at things at all. In my book a dominant is someone with power and influence over a submissive. I think all this talk of what's 'good' is actually you guys projecting your own ideals. Which is fine as long as it's confined to your own personal wishlist but what I think everyone needs to have a think about is what it means for someone to be your dominant and how that doesn't translate into universally dominant or 'everyone's dominant'. I don't know what the hell I am but it isn't contingent on the sensibilities of submissives that's for sure.



But there is no seriously no logic to someone who cannot lead but will allow his sub to lead him, while he dominates? Then what exactly is dominating if he is incapable and incompetent of being the leader of the relationship?

Perhaps this is when top from bottom happens and works. Sub leads. Dom dominates.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 2/23/2016 4:23:11 PM >

(in reply to Cell)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 2/23/2016 7:42:25 PM   
Cell


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Nothng to do with anybody leading Greta. The guy doesn't need to be likeable. He doesn't need to be honourable or play nice with others. He doesn't need to be good at leading people... he could be some old jailbird bikey with bad personal hygiene and worse manners. He doesn't even need an education. Conversation might consist of 'fuck off' or 'eat it bitch'... someone could quite frankly have no redeeming qualities what so ever... and be dominant. And you know what, some chicks are crazy enough to be totally into that guy. Maybe they are getting back at daddy lol, I don't know, but It's when people start talking about "A Dominant" like it's a job description that talk of literal dominance takes a back seat to people's personal taste and sensibilities. It kinda reminds me of how some women say a guy isn't a man because of say he beat his wife or the like. (I don't mean to be flippant about domestic violence) but a person's manhood isn't determined by the sensibilities of women, just like a master isn't subject to the judgment of his slave, just like a dominant isn't sanctioned by the approval of popular opinion. No one needs to have leadership qualities or charisma or anything to be a top do they? But to be a dom it's like people are expecting Julius Caesar or something.

I wasn't trying to diminish people's own thoughts about it all DreamLady, just trying to hopefully convince a few people that ideas about what 'a dominant' is, seems to have picked up a lot of baggage. I might as well get down off my soap box, this is after all a thread about whatever link is between leadership and dominance. I'd probably just say a person's personality is the link if there has to be one. Personality traits having utility in different areas of life etc... like how determination, endurance and will power can be useful in cross country running as well as paying off a mortgage. Same thing with the leader/dominant question I guess. However I think what people are actually talking about when they talk about "A Dominant" is a leader and ideas about each just get conflated.

(in reply to Greta75)
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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 3/13/2016 4:26:16 AM   
WilliamWizer


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as far as I know the "job" of a dominant is to lead the sub though life so she can serve him the best.

from that point of view you need to be a good leader to be a good dom.

let me give a bit of reasoning to back what I said.

being a dom is not just taking control of another while having kinky sex. good if somebody enjoys it but to me it looks like having a date while a relationship and commitment between a dom and a sub is comparable to a marriage.

with that in mind there must be something both sides gain from the relationship. the dom gains somebody that obeys him but what does the sub gain from her submission?

while I'm sure there are as many answers as people the most logical from my point of view is that the sub gains protection, safety and being cared for. to provide those things the dom needs to be able to make the right decisions and lead her as she will depend on what he decides and how well he manages the skills, knowledge and resources they have.

but everything I have said and (tried to) explain can be simplified into this "a sub obeys and follows. a dom commands and leads"

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There's only two rules for a sub:
- she can do anything her Master didn't forbid her.
- she only needs to do what her Master told her to do.

(in reply to Cell)
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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 6/18/2016 2:12:18 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cell
Hmm, I wish JeffBC was here. I'm pretty sure he's had a lot more leadership experience than me... would be interesting to hear his thoughts on it.

And in the oddest turn of events, I am here... it's been a while (years??) but not surprisingly, this thread caught my attention. Here's my thoughts on the topic which are nothing more than thoughts, this being akin to the sub/slave debates. I'm going to break this apart into three sections... dominance, leadership, and goodness.

Dominance
For me, dominance is a matter of internal viewpoint. It is the general expectation that the world around me is within my control if I want it to be. It's a willingness to stand and be counted in public for all to see and then to reap the results of your actions, for better or worse, in public. It is pretty much solely an internal mindset and has little to do with the attributes which make that dominance good or bad for those who are submitting. I actually think it has more to do with a specific type of courage (being willing to fail in public, being willing to have others bear the cost of your failure), and a low tolerance for chaos. It may or may not also be connected to a desire for authority but in my experience, it frequently is not -- certainly not in the best of them.

In terms of how common this attribute is, I think that's the wrong question. I think us humans are basically a pack species and we naturally form social units. In any given group, there will be those who are more dominant than the others. Roughly 5-10% of those will fall into the dominant role within that group. So in a general sense, everyone is dominant but in a given situation, 5-10% will be. It's kind of like grading on a curve. If you establish a curve that says "The top 5% will get an A" then you 5% of your students will be "A students".

Leadership
After internal inclination to take control comes the need to actually do so. This is how I see leadership. It's the study and application of tools and techniques to manipulate people into following your lead. Leadership is where concepts like "strategies for decision making" and "span of control" and related topics get looked at in detail. Again, you can have great leaders who are awful for the people they lead. Leadership is also where the relative pro's and con's of various tools like fear, intimidation, respect, loyalty, and consensus all get discussed in detail.

Goodness
OP asked: but truly, do you feel good dominants are good leaders?
I want to be careful about the adjective "good" here. Above I've taken a stance that says a good leader is an effective leader. In this thread (and in most BDSM discussions), "good" means that the leader is beneficial to those who are following. So looking at a "good Dom" as one who's beneficial to those submitting then the only connection I see to being a "good" dominant is being a good person (aside, of course, from being dominant). You either care about and want to help those around you or you do not. Put a bit differently, some people want to be the leader because they desire authority. These are the "bad" leaders. Some seek responsibility. Those are the good ones.

Overall I see dominance, leadership, and "goodness" as three circles which only slightly overlap in a venn diagram. When they do all overlap, it tends to be a very special individual and a great experience for all involved.

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(in reply to Cell)
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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 6/19/2016 11:43:08 AM   
crazyml


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Wb. <tips hat>

Please stay a while.

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 6/20/2016 4:13:28 PM   
DannyIsNotWelcom


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Yes. Whether it's BDSM or the army people will obey you when they feel that it's a good idea. Myself I'm submissive by character, I like to be forced to do things (by the right person of course) but I do have leadership qualities and it's not that different. If somebody else is in charge you want them to know what they're doing and to consider yourself too.

(in reply to SuaveGentleman)
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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 6/20/2016 6:57:50 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuaveGentleman

I know this notion is all but too common in literature, but truly, do you feel good dominants are good leaders? (The opposite obviously would be a poor generalization).

By leadership I dont mean a position or stature of corporate or social significance. I mean the skills to keep one's calm in the face of adversity, to be able to steer oneself and others out of troubled situations, to be able to guide, nurture and coach others without any expectations of collateral gain.

What do your experiences say?
Dominance is the inherent tendency toward control, acquisition and exertion of power and the inherent belief in one's right to direct others. It has no moral imperative.


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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 6/20/2016 7:26:21 PM   
DannyIsNotWelcom


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Haha, that's what so may wannabe masters tell themselves: I am born to dominate! Now come here all you little slaves and do my laundry! Frankly my dear I have thrown people with that attitude out of my house more than once. When my master tells me to get on my knees and kiss his feet I do it before I even have time to think about whether I want to or not. See the difference?

(in reply to Awareness)
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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 6/26/2016 4:45:43 AM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mousekabob

for me personally you can be a leader but not dominant but to be dominant you must be a leader. Probably why I don't consider many people in the world to be dominant when they think they are. I think dominance is actually a rare breed.


Well shit.
I am so fucked.
When should I expect the key back?

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 6/28/2016 2:26:34 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuaveGentleman

I know this notion is all but too common in literature, but truly, do you feel good dominants are good leaders? (The opposite obviously would be a poor generalization).


One cannot dominate without leading in some degree clear degree. Of course, there is more to dominance than simply leading, but if you are terrible at leading, at forming plans, at structuring the relationship with protocols and direction, your dominance is best reserved for the bondage club or on a fee per-hour basis.

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 6/29/2016 4:49:07 AM   
DannyIsNotWelcom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

One cannot dominate without leading in some degree clear degree. Of course, there is more to dominance than simply leading,


Yes, it's making people from the other side want to be lead by you. If you can't lead you can't do that anyway. Like I say for practical purposes, I am an excellent leader but I don't enjoy it (as a submissive). If somebody just wants to push me around they have to respond to me and my owner, if you know what I mean.

Edit: From you profile I learn that you like to play with sex dolls. If they have no will of their own, no individuality, etc. wtf does that have to do with leadership? My master is in charge of me, sometimes like a father, sometimes like a big brother, sometimes like a superior officer, but that does not mean that I have to switch my brains off.

< Message edited by DannyIsNotWelcom -- 6/29/2016 5:06:45 AM >

(in reply to MarcEsadrian)
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