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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 7:21:42 AM

Caretakr

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Forget the stupid board responses with a tag.

I'll mention you specifically ,"agril", if I'm actually replying to something you said..

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 7:24:15 AM

Sunshine119

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

It's like this...If you care, simple communication will work, and just paying attention.

And if you do not, it won't save you anyhow.

I agree completely. It is the phrase "If you care," that speak volumes. If the Dominant cares enough about the well-being of the submissive he/she is with and knows that person, no safeword is necessary.

We don't use safewords and never have. I didn't start playing with Him until I trusted Him. He reads my body language and I tell him, both in words and through responses from my body when something is wrong.

Then, of course, the key is that He cares enough about me to listen.

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 7:44:43 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leakylee

In reading the thread on the safe words, there seems to be two main school of thought on them. The first being that they have paramount place in our play, and the second being that can be there or not.

My question is how did you come to your decision? Was it by experience? Did a session somewhere light the bulb that confirmed this path for you? Was it from the numberous sources available in researching and learning?

Thank you for sharing
Lee

For me, it depends on the situation I find myself in. If I am playing with someone new, yeah, I put them into place and still rely on my own judgment as to whether or not I've reached a point where I should stop (allowing for the stoic sub who would not utter a safe word if her life depended on it).

With those I've played with before, we started out with a safeword in place and as we played and I learned her body and her responses and we gained trust in each other and learned to communicate ever more intricately, they became less and less necessary. I can think of several of these submissives that, if we were intent on playing now, there would most likely not be a need to have them in place but they would still be discussed.

Whichever way you choose to go, the communication and trust between the parties involved and a recognition of personal responsibility is what matters. If these aren't present, then no amount of safewording is going to work.

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 7:48:01 AM

Caretakr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: leakylee

In reading the thread on the safe words, there seems to be two main school of thought on them. The first being that they have paramount place in our play, and the second being that can be there or not.

My question is how did you come to your decision? Was it by experience? Did a session somewhere light the bulb that confirmed this path for you? Was it from the numberous sources available in researching and learning?

Thank you for sharing
Lee

For me, it depends on the situation I find myself in. If I am playing with someone new, yeah, I put them into place and still rely on my own judgment as to whether or not I've reached a point where I should stop (allowing for the stoic sub who would not utter a safe word if her life depended on it).

With those I've played with before, we started out with a safeword in place and as we played and I learned her body and her responses and we gained trust in each other and learned to communicate ever more intricately, they became less and less necessary. I can think of several of these submissives that, if we were intent on playing now, there would most likely not be a need to have them in place but they would still be discussed.

Whichever way you choose to go, the communication and trust between the parties involved and a recognition of personal responsibility is what matters. If these aren't present, then no amount of safewording is going to work.

And one of the things that will make me NEVER play with a bottom again is the "by the way" after a scene.....where they had an issue, but refused to say anything-at the time.

I am not being "pleased", if a girl refuses to take personal responsibility.

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 8:14:22 AM

hizgeorgiapeach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
In these paragraphs though, you yourself say that having a safe word would not have made a difference. You say that communication wasn't allowed or wouldn't have worked any better than a safeword. The failure of or the lack of satisfaction of the scene(s) was due to trusting and placing yourself in the hands of someone that didn't deserve to have that trust.

Erin, sometimes it's not immediately apparant that someone is going to ignore all attempts at communication - especially if they start things out by apparantly respecting limits and the necessity to communicate. It wasn't an overnight development that safewords - and other forms of communication in scene - became completely disregarded. It took Months of slow, very subtle changes, which only started well after the relationship was established and trust had been built up. If you've been living with them for 6 or 7 months before they start to subtly change how they do things - it can take a while before you decide that they're untrustworthy, or even realize that things have changed significantly.

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 8:29:02 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach
Erin, sometimes it's not immediately apparant that someone is going to ignore all attempts at communication - especially if they start things out by apparantly respecting limits and the necessity to communicate. It wasn't an overnight development that safewords - and other forms of communication in scene - became completely disregarded. It took Months of slow, very subtle changes, which only started well after the relationship was established and trust had been built up. If you've been living with them for 6 or 7 months before they start to subtly change how they do things - it can take a while before you decide that they're untrustworthy, or even realize that things have changed significantly.

hizgeorgiapeach,
Please don't get me wrong...I am not judging you or your personal experience. I am sure you had your own personal reasons for your circumstance...and quite honestly they are really none of my business and I hope that you don't feel as though you need to defend your actions to me. All I am saying is that the experiences that you describe show no indication that a safe word would have made any significant difference to the outcome. You were at the hands of someone who shunned communication of all types...safe words included.

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 8:49:34 AM

hizgeorgiapeach

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I guess the main thing that Influenced my decision concerning safewords et al - is the fact that the ugliness involved in THat situation didn't start until After a safeword was no longer allowed. There will likely always be a subconscious connection between the two in my brain - not allowed = not trustworthy. That situation went a long way towards convincing me on a very personal level that someone who refuses to even Consider one is someone that I am incapable of ever trusting on more than a very superficial level connected to very specific circumstances. Ie, someone that I may be able to trust to go to the store when they say they're going to, but not to trust my life with, not to trust is going to listen when I tell them what is going on with MY body.

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 8:55:08 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

Forget the stupid board responses with a tag.

I'll mention you specifically ,"agril", if I'm actually replying to something you said..

Thank you for the information. I'm awfully grateful to have that clear..........LOL

< Message edited by agirl -- 7/20/2006 8:57:59 AM >

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 8:58:46 AM

Curiossdragnlily

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i was lucky in the fact that the F/friends that i developed within the lifestyle strongly felt that safewords were and are essential. Especially in the beginnings of a relationship. T/they had learned from experience and i learned from T/their experiences and saw that T/they gave sound advice. Master and i stress safewords AND safecalls when W/we speak with new P/people. W/we had safewords even though i never had to use them. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
with respect,
lily, collared and owned slave of Master Curios
srn 308-692-331

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 9:50:08 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

That situation went a long way towards convincing me on a very personal level that someone who refuses to even Consider one is someone that I am incapable of ever trusting on more than a very superficial level connected to very specific circumstances. Ie, someone that I may be able to trust to go to the store when they say they're going to, but not to trust my life with, not to trust is going to listen when I tell them what is going on with MY body.

Rhi,
How would you react to a Dom who came to you and said he wouldn't allow use of a safe word but wouldn't consider a session with you until you were sure you didn't need one? However long the process took, he would be willing to invest that time with you because he felt you worthy. However his integrity, and his commitment to his beliefs would prefer waiting to compromise.

Would you pass up the opportunity for this type of individual for the instant gratification of scening with a safe word?

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 10:10:28 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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I think I'm going to smash my computer to bits if I read one more post that suggests you need safewords more somehow in the beginning of a relationship than you do later in the relationship, or that safewords are some magical symbol of trust. The logic in that is so completely off and incomplete.

True to my previous words, here is a story by Ownedgirlie which is the epitome of how ACTUAL communication works in ACTUAL scenes:
No safeword here. Once I thought my ankle was about to break and I shrieked "ANKLE!!!" because really the only thing going on in my head at that very second was ANKLE!!! and he pulled back so that my ankle didn't break after all and we kept going.

It's not a safe word though. He could have chosen to break my ankle if he wanted to, and then I'd be in a cast for awhile.

Typically the change in my cries/moans/yelps clue him in pretty good if something is wrong - gag or no gag. It's rare such a thing happens, but 100% of the time it has happened, he adjusted immediately. So far nothing has ever occurred which actually stopped our activity.

An ankle push can happen in Scene #1, or Scene #1000. This has nothing to do with TRUST, it has to do with LIFE. You have to understand and use communication in EVERY scene, on EVERY step of the way. The trust you need is that everyone will communicate honestly and respond as expected- NOT some ridiculous idea that if you trust someone enough that they won't snap your ankle.

Communication doesn't get to go away, subs don't get to stop communicating and doms aren't omnipotent. Shit happens in scenes, no matter how many years you've been together or how awesome a player you are.

Use a safeword or not, but for crying out loud stop suggesting that they hold some magical properties or that you somehow don't need them in the future- because accidents and problems happen in scene #4796 just as much as they happen in scene #1.

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 10:14:18 AM

hizgeorgiapeach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

That situation went a long way towards convincing me on a very personal level that someone who refuses to even Consider one is someone that I am incapable of ever trusting on more than a very superficial level connected to very specific circumstances. Ie, someone that I may be able to trust to go to the store when they say they're going to, but not to trust my life with, not to trust is going to listen when I tell them what is going on with MY body.

Rhi,
How would you react to a Dom who came to you and said he wouldn't allow use of a safe word but wouldn't consider a session with you until you were sure you didn't need one? However long the process took, he would be willing to invest that time with you because he felt you worthy. However his integrity, and his commitment to his beliefs would prefer waiting to compromise.

Would you pass up the opportunity for this type of individual for the instant gratification of scening with a safe word?

Not only would I pass it up - I HAVE passed it up. Each of us as individuals has our own little squicks which life and circumstances have taught us. Should MY commitment to My beliefs be any less than that annonymous dom/top's simply because I'm a bottom? I don't see that it's any less my place to decide that someone is "worthy" than it is theirs to decide that I am or am not 'worthy.' Honestly - I figure if someone is That Interested in eventually playing with me, that they're willing to invest sufficient years for me to decide I'm comfortable with them without that being Allowed in the toolbox - then they should be willing to allow me what I need to feel safe on even a subconscious level. What is it costing them other than possibly a bit of egoism, for me not to have subconscious doubts about their reliability?

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 10:19:44 AM

somethndif

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leakylee

In reading the thread on the safe words, there seems to be two main school of thought on them. The first being that they have paramount place in our play, and the second being that can be there or not.

My question is how did you come to your decision? Was it by experience? Did a session somewhere light the bulb that confirmed this path for you? Was it from the numberous sources available in researching and learning?

I don't use them and I think they are unnecessary. Based on experience. If the girl wants a safe word, that's fine with me. Red, yellow, green.

Unless you are with someone who likes to say "No, no, no, please stop," when she really means, "Oh, that feels so good," I think they are useless.

I have always found that asking, "Are you all right?" works pretty well and elicits more information. *smiling*

Dan

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 10:31:01 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

What is it costing them other than possibly a bit of egoism, for me not to have subconscious doubts about their reliability?

If it is ego on either side, I'd agree it's wrong. From my perspective in the scenario I created, it's costing you both the one thing neither of you have but both are attempting to obtain; a trusting relationship.

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 11:07:29 AM

Bearlee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

...
I never had a "meet & beat" encounter. I felt, and still believe, the experience of domination and submission requires an elementary intimacy deeper than a physical act.

Nicely said!

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 11:45:24 AM

BitaTruble

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quote:

By their nature, they inhibit communication.

Only if you use them to replace other forms of communication rather than as simply a tool in a box filled with many other tools. Body language and the simple act of touching being among those.

quote:

During the "getting to know" stage, after the "after-care", I got to know my partners by discussing how they felt during the scene. I asked if I was too harsh, not harsh enough. We discussed everything from technique to style. The communication opened up the opportunity to discuss expanding limits.

Himself and I do the exact same thing, discussing what's gone on, how each of us felt when this and that was going on. Himself and I have spent years getting to know one another, finding out new things all the time which enhance our lives together simply because we continue to communicate. I don't believe it's possible to ever know every single thing about another person because we continue to grow as we continue to live, so new facets pop up, new ideas form, old concepts go by the way side .. it's evolving and ever changing which keeps it exciting, fresh and intriguing. Not just after a scene and not just about the physical aspects either.. there is nothing that we don't talk about, often times until the wee hours of the morning.

So, a safeword as a tool can enhance communication during a scene. For us, it does not and never will replace the sheer joy we have just talking to each other.

Celeste

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 11:53:23 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I have seen or known of many instances where scenes went bad due to a safeword. I have seen several times a Dominant who should have stopped but didn't because the sub didn't or couldn't safeword. I have seen at least one instance where that resulted in allegations of abuse. I have spoken far too often with submissives who should have safeworded and regretted not doing so after the fact....because they were too embarassed to say it...didn't want to let the Dominant down....didn't want everyone to think they were a wimp. I have talked to too many new submissives who have moved way too fast and relied upon their safe word as a safety net...only to have it ignored by someone they should have never trusted. I have seen Dominants who repeatedly take every sub they are with to their safeword because they can't take the time to be observant enough or get to know their partner enough to read any other kind of cue....and I have seen those subs come out of those scenes feeling traumatized and like failures.

I suppose that is why many are a little cautious about safewords, because if I am reading what others have posted correctly, there comes some emotional baggage attached with them. Instead of a tool for communication, they become a tool of manipulation, or a shameful and taboo thing. It is a word after all, it isn't a "failure" in my mind to use one. I like my soft limits tested (perhaps pushed would be too strong of a term), it is just like saying "stop" or some other warning of pain.

I have found this thread helpful, and thanks for the insight erin. I highlighted what you said, because I find this passage in your post to be a misuse of a tool. If you use a screwdriver for what it isn't intended for you could hurt someone, same for safewords. If you do not use a tool properly, you cannot blame the tool, but instead the person using the tool (kinda like that weapons thread recently pointed out, it is the people that misuse guns, the guns are just tools..smiles). It has been informative to read this, kinda like reading a manual on how to use a sander or a drill, it is important to realize how a tool should be properly used, and how it has been misused by others.

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 12:35:24 PM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I think I'm going to smash my computer to bits if I read one more post that suggests you need safewords more somehow in the beginning of a relationship than you do later in the relationship, or that safewords are some magical symbol of trust.

LA, Computers are expensive...and this too shall pass!...lol. Breathe!

Awesome post btw...and welcome back, hope you are settling in nicely.

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There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 12:41:35 PM

mistoferin

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I'm glad this has helped julia. Yes, safewords are a tool....one that I have seen misused far more often than I have ever seen it used correctly....or maybe it's just that the failures stand out more. I've been having this discussion for a long time now and still, no one has ever been able to provide me one single example of an instance where a safeword would have been superior to simple honest communication. For those who wish to use them...I wish them well and can only hope that they will not mishandle the tool.

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Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot - 7/20/2006 1:16:54 PM

windchymes

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Using or not using safewords isn't really the major issue. What really makes me cringe is imagining young, uneducated subs- and slaves-to-be who are dying to wear a collar, any collar, just a collar NOW, reading these posts that tout the wonder and thrill and unnecessity of using any kind of safeword. And then hooking up with another young and uneducated person deciding he's a Master Who Doesn't Allow Safewords and then beats the hell out of her or injures her.

(Not aiming this next comment at anyone in particular!) When you basically speak with pride about not needing to use, or not being allowed to use safewords, it may give someone much more inexperienced the idea that safewords are something to shy away from...and thus, they end up being one of those subs who are afraid to use them when they should be.

I think the education needs to be that safewords are GOOD if you need them or want them, and there is no shame in using one. But in the right situations, it's fine not to have them. But you are no "better" a sub or slave if you do use one than if you don't. And protecting your own self is paramount. Don't depend on someone else to protect you until you know for sure that they can....and will!

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