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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 11:25:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

This says the exact spot is still a secret.

http://baseballrubbingmud.com

So did my original one, if read all the way through. The current caretaker of the mud even describes the lies he tells people, when they "catch him in the act".

That's why I made the text that Palmyra is near Vincetown

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

ETA: Palmyra isn't too far from Vincetown
Michael

Michael

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 11:27:49 AM

kdsub

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Just to understand your position.... Do you think medical care should be denied because of sexual orientation... Now the Mississippi bill may not but another states does.

Butch

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 11:38:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just to understand your position.... Do you think medical care should be denied because of sexual orientation... Now the Mississippi bill may not but another states does.

Butch

I'm calling "Bullshit, Bob" on the fragment after the second ellipsis. Can you show me a state law that makes it legal for medical practitioners to discriminate against homosexuals, please?

Michael

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 12:27:53 PM

kdsub

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Yes I can... Tennessee... Their Freedom of Religion bill specifically allows Mental Healthcare professionals the right to deny treatment to gays.

Still bullshit?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/9/2016 12:30:40 PM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 12:33:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes I can... Tennessee... Their Freedom of Religion bill specifically allows Mental Healthcare professionals the right to deny treatment to gays.

Butch

I asked you to show me the law

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I'm calling "Bullshit, Bob" on the fragment after the second ellipsis. Can you show me a state law that makes it legal for medical practitioners to discriminate against homosexuals, please?

Michael

... so, I'd like a cite, please?

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 4/9/2016 12:35:22 PM >

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 12:45:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes I can... Tennessee... Their Freedom of Religion bill specifically allows Mental Healthcare professionals the right to deny treatment to gays.

Still bullshit?

Butch

It allows for counselors and therapists to refer patients other professionals if the clients goals, desired outcomes or behaviours conflict with the seriously held religious beliefs of the counselor.

http://factn.org/portfolio/tn-senate-bill-1556-tn-house-bill-1840/

I see no problem with this bill. Anyone who's operated in any kind of therapeutic context knows the importance of establishing rapport in order for therapy to be successful - and if a patient's goals, desired outcomes or behaviours conflict with the counselor's sincerely held religious beliefs then you've got no fucking chance of establishing rapport in the first place.

Again, counseling is not a government or essential service and the necessity for alignment between doctor and patient is mandatory. If a counselor has genuine distaste for the activities of gay people, exactly what does anyone think will be gained by forcing them to endure engagement with such people on potentially intimate topics?

Well, aside from Christian-baiting, that is.

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 12:52:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes I can... Tennessee... Their Freedom of Religion bill specifically allows Mental Healthcare professionals the right to deny treatment to gays.

Still bullshit?

Butch

It allows for counselors and therapists to refer patients other professionals if the clients goals, desired outcomes or behaviours conflict with the seriously held religious beliefs of the counselor.

http://factn.org/portfolio/tn-senate-bill-1556-tn-house-bill-1840/

Thank you for posting that (I kind of figured that Butch wouldn't). It might be fine hair to split, but the law insists that a "denial" (it's not) of service can only happen, once a referral has been made. Making it a referral of service rather than a denial of service.

So, as I surmised, such a law doesn't exist (unless Butch had another idea in mind).

Michael

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 12:53:29 PM

kdsub

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HERE ya go

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 12:55:36 PM

kdsub

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HERE is the summary.

This bill provides immunity from liability for counselors and therapists who refuse to counsel a client as to goals, outcomes, or behaviors that conflict with a sincerely held religious belief of the counselor or therapist.

Still Bullshit in your way of thinking?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/9/2016 12:56:41 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 1:01:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

HERE is the summary.

This bill provides immunity from liability for counselors and therapists who refuse to counsel a client as to goals, outcomes, or behaviors that conflict with a sincerely held religious belief of the counselor or therapist.

Still Bullshit in your way of thinking?

Butch

I still think it's bullshit. I don't regard counseling and therapy as forms of medical care anyway and the disclosure required during such sessions makes trust and rapport essential. Two things you are not going to achieve between a gay client and a Christian or Islamic therapist who sincerely believes homosexuality is morally wrong.

It seems like an eminently sensible measure.

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 1:03:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

HERE ya go

Butch

Here ya go, Butch. From your cite (if you look at the summary); copied and pasted (Click the "Summary" tab at the top. I added the red colored font)

quote:

Bill Summary

This bill provides immunity from liability for counselors and therapists who refuse to counsel a client as to goals, outcomes, or behaviors that conflict with a sincerely held religious belief of the counselor or therapist.

Under this bill, refusal to provide such counseling or therapy services cannot be the basis for:

(1) A civil cause of action;
(2) Criminal prosecution; or
(3) Any other action by the state or a political subdivision of the state to penalize or withhold benefits or privileges, including tax exemptions or governmental contracts, grants, or licenses.

Counselors or therapists refusing to provide counseling or therapy under this bill must coordinate a referral of the client to another counselor or therapist who will provide the service.

So, the patient gets help from someone who possesses an understanding of where it is the patient wants to go.

I noticed that substance abuse counselors are included. D'ya think that a patient that comes in for substance abuse counseling should be able to say: "I want you to teach me how to bang heroin successfully" and then sue (or put in jail) any counselor that refuses the request?

You see, no counselor worth their salt would be on board with that because they just don't believe it's an ethical goal. It goes against their firmly held (non-religious) belief.

Add that to the fact that it is a referral as opposed to a denial and I think your next call should be to the leg factory so you can buy one to stand on.

Michael

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 1:08:41 PM

kdsub

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Michael... that does not change the fact that the law allows Healthcare professionals to deny treatment... it is wrong... Is it ok with you if you have to travel perhaps out of state to see a therapist... or One not of your choice... all because of a discriminatory law?

Hell cake bakers can refer too... that is not the point... US citizens can legally be denied medical care... who knows what is next if these laws stand?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 1:22:41 PM

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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Michael... that does not change the fact that the law allows Healthcare professionals to deny treatment... it is wrong... Is it ok with you if you have to travel perhaps out of state to see a therapist... or One not of your choice... all because of a discriminatory law?

Hell cake bakers can refer too... that is not the point... US citizens can legally be denied medical care... who knows what is next if these laws stand?

Butch

One more time, I will try to reason with you. You've dug your heels in, based upon a misunderstanding that you were either told or you interpreted. Also on top of a rather rude statement you made about/to me, a couple of weeks ago. I'm trying to shower you in Christian charity, here.

Here we go:

quote:

Counselors or therapists refusing to provide counseling or therapy under this bill must coordinate a referral of the client to another counselor or therapist who will provide the service.

Take note of the words: "must coordinate". That means that the therapist can't just give the patient a number. The therapist is required to make sure another, more sympathetic, counselor is in place.

If the patient says: "I can't drive that far" or "I can't drive because of the meds you have me on" or "I can't walk on the left side of the street to catch the bus", the "denying" therapist has not COORDINATED a referral of the client to another therapist.

ie; NO ONE is going without therapy.

Your soapbox has been infested with termites.

Michael

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 1:34:54 PM

kdsub

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First... what rude statement did I make of you... I always considered you a friend here...

Now to your point... it is still denial of service... there is no getting around that. Who are they to be referred to... do you like to pick your doctors? How far will they have to travel?

Below is part of the oath they take... note the ALL my fellow humans... not all except queers.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 1:57:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

First... what rude statement did I make of you... I always considered you a friend here...

I guess the slight came so easy to you that you don't remember it. It doesn't matter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Now to your point... it is still denial of service... there is no getting around that. Who are they to be referred to... do you like to pick your doctors? How far will they have to travel?

For the last fucking time: it is NOT a denial. The client will be served (by law) by someone else before the therapist can stop treating them. End of story. That's how the law reads. The therapist "must COORDINATE ..." That's it. There MUST be another therapist in place; not some words, scribbled on a prescription pad.

I know it doesn't fit the "Christians hate queers" narrative, but there it is.

I'll go further: if there actually was any DENIAL of service, I would be at the front of the pack, calling for the job of the therapist, their loss of license to practice, jail time, fines, and all-around loss of heavenly grace. The trouble (for your argument) is: It is not how you are reading it. Look up the words: "Must" and "Coordinate" in a dictionary. If that doesn't satisfy you, try those two words, together in a legal dictionary (I can't share my password to law.com).

Michael

quote:

ORIGINAL https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Must

must 1 (mŭst)
Share:
v.
v.aux.
1. To be obliged or required by morality, law, or custom

quote:

ORIGINAL https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=coordinate

co·or·di·nate (kō-ôrdn-ĭt, -āt′)

v.tr.
1. To cause to work or function in a common action or effort: coordinating the moving parts of a machine.
2. To make harmonious; harmonize: coordinate the colors of a design.

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 4/9/2016 2:03:19 PM >

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 3:09:02 PM

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quote:

Not liking gay people is entirely their right and forcing people with religious convictions - or even just plain discomfort - to engage with gay people is nothing more than a petty little scheme of revenge and spite.

Interesting - because, of course, revenge and spite is exactly what gay people have said lies behind the decision of, for instance, a baker who refuses to make a cake for a gay couple who want to get married. The fact that it's covered with a lot of supposedly holy Christian puffery is neither here nor there.

As a rider: it's balls, of course, to talk in terms of 'freedom' versus 'control' - the second allegedly being the province of the left, authoritarianism, nasty-nasty-anti-americanism (etc, etc). What it's about is privileging one kind of freedom over others by enshrining it in law. There's the freedom of gay people to shop where they want to; there's the freedom of shopkeepers to sell only to those customers they want to. All that's happened here is that the Mississippi governors have decided the latter trumps the former. Well, no doubt Mississippians will exercise their beliefs in freedom and democracy to make it clear what they think in due course.

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 3:26:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Interesting - because, of course, revenge and spite is exactly what gay people have said lies behind the decision of, for instance, a baker who refuses to make a cake for a gay couple who want to get married. The fact that it's covered with a lot of supposedly holy Christian puffery is neither here nor there.

Yes, that's a convincing argument. A baker who refuses a service which is readily available elsewhere is engaging in "revenge" and "spite". Yeah, he sure showed them. Why, they're not having a wedding at all now, his spite has totally derailed their plans hasn't it?

What's that you say? This has made no difference to their lives at all and they just used this as a convenient platform from which to cry about what victims they are?

That line of argument is astonishingly weak. Even for you.

quote:

As a rider: it's balls, of course, to talk in terms of 'freedom' versus 'control' - the second allegedly being the province of the left, authoritarianism, nasty-nasty-anti-americanism (etc, etc).

Well the left is most concerned with thought-crime. It's a small step from policing words and phrases to policing thought. And I'm sure the left will have a convenient bunch of rationalisations for why policing thought is imperative, but it's not going to make Britain any less of a police state when instituted.

quote:

What it's about is privileging one kind of freedom over others by enshrining it in law.

That's a facetious line of argument. The business clearly wants to have nothing to do with gay people. On the other hand, the gay people concerned clearly want to impose upon the business. For anyone who isn't wedded to the victim-hood mantra, it's an open and shut case. The gays need to leave the Christians alone.

quote:

There's the freedom of gay people to shop where they want to; there's the freedom of shopkeepers to sell only to those customers they want to.

The freedom of shopkeepers is not infringed except in cases involving gay people or Muslims. Ever wonder why that is?

quote:

All that's happened here is that the Mississippi governors have decided the latter trumps the former. Well, no doubt Mississippians will exercise their beliefs in freedom and democracy to make it clear what they think in due course.

Like I said, this is a response to an overreach. And you'd be naive if you think the poorest state in the nation is going to support a bunch of social justice warriors prioritising the wailing and gnashing of teeth from a couple of effete troublemakers over the businesses of their friends and neighbours.

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 3:49:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Interesting - because, of course, revenge and spite is exactly what gay people have said lies behind the decision of, for instance, a baker who refuses to make a cake for a gay couple who want to get married. The fact that it's covered with a lot of supposedly holy Christian puffery is neither here nor there.
Yes, that's a convincing argument. A baker who refuses a service which is readily available elsewhere is engaging in "revenge" and "spite". Yeah, he sure showed them. Why, they're not having a wedding at all now, his spite has totally derailed their plans hasn't it?

What's that you say? This has made no difference to their lives at all and they just used this as a convenient platform from which to cry about what victims they are?

Cobblers, as ever. The whimpering and whining ones here are the bakers who don't want to make a cake. They're the ones who want to make a convenient platform to squeal about their nasty prejudices, all under the guise of pious religious belief.

quote:

quote:

As a rider: it's balls, of course, to talk in terms of 'freedom' versus 'control' - the second allegedly being the province of the left, authoritarianism, nasty-nasty-anti-americanism (etc, etc).
Well the left is most concerned with thought-crime. It's a small step from policing words and phrases to policing thought. And I'm sure the left will have a convenient bunch of rationalisations for why policing thought is imperative, but it's not going to make Britain any less of a police state when instituted.

Give me a break. The Right has been policing thought for centuries now, and most especially in the deep south of the USA. More than that, they've been policing actions too - and love, and marriage, and much else. They've been stuffing people's personal lives with their nasty, ugly views for time immemorial, in fact. The reality of what's happening now is that they're noticing that their entitlement to do so is being eroded over the long term.

As for Britain being a 'police state' ... Oh gawd. Grow up. Jeez, Awareness, do you ever talk to anybody other than passing rabid wombats and kangaroos?

quote:

quote:

What it's about is privileging one kind of freedom over others by enshrining it in law.
That's a facetious line of argument. The business clearly wants to have nothing to do with gay people. On the other hand, the gay people concerned clearly want to impose upon the business. For anyone who isn't wedded to the victim-hood mantra, it's an open and shut case. The gays need to leave the Christians alone.

Balls, again. It's the Christians, here, who are bleating 'victimhood'. Well, the looney-rightie Christians, anyway. They need to stop whimpering about the fact that Descartes was born and that the Enlightenment took off. They don't get to ram their ludicrous, unpleasant jiggery-pokery down everyone's throats as much, any more. Well, tough. They'll get used to it.

quote:

quote:

There's the freedom of gay people to shop where they want to; there's the freedom of shopkeepers to sell only to those customers they want to.
The freedom of shopkeepers is not infringed except in cases involving gay people or Muslims. Ever wonder why that is?

Sorry ... Muslims? I hadn't realised that this law focused on Muslims. Actually, from what I've read, the law doesn't mention Muslims at all. How does this come into the mix? What, actually, are you talking about here, Awareness?

quote:

quote:

All that's happened here is that the Mississippi governors have decided the latter trumps the former. Well, no doubt Mississippians will exercise their beliefs in freedom and democracy to make it clear what they think in due course.

Like I said, this is a response to an overreach. And you'd be naive if you think the poorest state in the nation is going to support a bunch of social justice warriors prioritising the wailing and gnashing of teeth from a couple of effete troublemakers over the businesses of their friends and neighbours.

God you're a tiresome propagandising windbag. The social justice warriors here are the cretinous right wing Christians who want to carry on squeezing their pimples and barking about how Jesus wanted them to kick around gays and lesbians. Nobody's going to carry on caring about silly little farts like that for very long. I'm only surprised why you consider their opinions to be so crucial. Why is that? Seriously - why do you care what fuckwitted farts like that think - if, indeed, 'think' is the right word? You're not even American, Awareness, let alone a deep-South, bible thumping, barking right wing American Xian.

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 3:56:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

While that is certainly true, they are trying to get the country to believe that all republicans are homophobic and should never hold office. How can you build that kind of hate with only a cake. No, you have to make it far worse than it is to generate the kind of hate the left seems to be going for these days and they have made it clear they don't mind lying to get their point across. And in the mean time we should boycott all business in the states because although it was the law makers who passed the bills they somehow think it's the average citizen who should pay for it. And if they continue to scream boycott every time someone passes a bill they don't like, they can scare people into voting for who they want in the next election.

God, THB. The first time you put in an appearance on this thread and it's to defend republicans, not other LGBT people? I suppose I should be used to your MO by now, but sometimes you still astonish me.

Well first off, it's not the right against the LGBT people. That's a lie being fed by the left to further their agenda of hate against the right. There are plenty of conservative gays out there, just like there are plenty of liberals who have problems with LGBT people based solely on their religion. But since you brought up me unconditionally supporting LGBT's . Does this mean I should automatically support them even if I don't believe what they are saying? How about when they discriminate against trans folks? Should I support them then also based solely on the fact that they are gay? Yea I don't think so, but if that kind of logic works for you, have at it.

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RE: Thoughts about backwoods Mississippi? - 4/9/2016 4:05:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Michael... that does not change the fact that the law allows Healthcare professionals to deny treatment... it is wrong... Is it ok with you if you have to travel perhaps out of state to see a therapist... or One not of your choice... all because of a discriminatory law?

Hell cake bakers can refer too... that is not the point... US citizens can legally be denied medical care... who knows what is next if these laws stand?

Butch

While I totally agree they shouldn't be able to refuse medical treatment to anyone based on sexual preference why the fuck would you want to see them? When my ex and I saw a counselor the first thing we did was make sure she didn't have a problem with gays or bdsm. If she had, we would have gone to some one else. I can't imagine trying to discuss personal issues with someone who had a problem with gays. That's just common sense.

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