RE: Suggested reading for all liberals

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MrRodgers -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 4:15:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: Which invites the rejoinder. .. if you're so smart why aren't you rich (elected). Because I love being a barmaid, which doesn't pay well, and I have a very expensive hobby (taking university courses).[:D][:D] But you see the premise...bank accounts = intelligence. If that isn't smug...nothing is. However, there are and have been many very intelligent and rich liberals.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 4:43:46 PM)
quote: The repubs are expert at saying one thing at election time and then once in office...doing nothing of the sort. That is hardly the province of just one political party, it is pretty much SOP in all parties in all countries. quote: I would venture to say that while the link is almost all opinion, it is somewhat true but pales in comparison to the absolute arrogant, downright hypocritical smugness of the right. You are incorrect. quote: Oh and the reason that most of the left blames most of our domestic and foreign policy problems on GWB, is because he is the cause of most of foreign policy and domestic problems of today. And they would be incorrect as well.

Nnanji -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 5:22:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick Not a bad analysis, however, I find that both sides have the same basic attitude, that there must be something wrong with you if you disagree. Conservatives are just as guilty of it as are liberals. I personally think it is, at least partly, a result of the 2-party system, where everything must be fit into a this box or that box, there is little room for nuance, and little room for shades of opinion. In short the whole "You're with us or against us" model is behind the phenomenon. Also, it is not really a new thing, it has been this way pretty much as long as the US has been around. I haven't checked where your from, so I don't know. But in California, by default, any conservative has to just acknowledge any liberal pap or lose a job, for instance. I find most conservatives are hard headed about their politics, yes. But here, the liberals literally get sick and need a safe space if you talk heresy.

Nnanji -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 5:29:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick True, the left has the "they don't know what's good for them" thing going on, the right has the "they hate America" thing. Each has it's own tropes. And honestly I think that an increasingly large part of the populace is getting tired of it, thus the rise of things like the Tea Party, the Occupy movement, and the campaigns of Trump and Sanders. I think that the majority of left leaning voters do not really think that right leaning voters are stupid and that the majority of right leaning voters understand that the left-leaning voters do indeed love America. dizzy, I agree there are indeed different tropes, and yes "liberals hate America" is one you hear from the right. I think id qualify that though with at least one thought; when conservatives say that, they are saying liberals hate America as they (the conservatives) understand it and have historically understood it. you can imagine we weren't/aren't too thrilled with "we are x many days away from fundamentally transforming America." You would be mostly correct that most conservatives say that, they are saying liberals hate America as they (the conservatives) understand it and have historically understood it. The trouble is right wing repub policies doesn't even get close to 'understand it and have historically understood it.' The repubs are expert at saying one thing at election time and then once in office...doing nothing of the sort. They have gone completely over the top in favoring corporatism, never saw ANY regulation they didn't hate or rent-seekers tax cut they didn't like while immensely hypocritical on its effects on deficits. Never saw a pentagon toy they didn't fund and then watch as it doubles. Believe the environment is slave to a profit, minimum wage should at whatever a bastardized market will bring it down to. Politically and continually rail against all manner of spending in the social arena while never subjecting the corporation or the business community to such fiscal scrutiny. I would venture to say that while the link is almost all opinion, it is somewhat true but pales in comparison to the absolute arrogant, downright hypocritical smugness of the right. Oh and the reason that most of the left blames most of our domestic and foreign policy problems on GWB, is because he is the cause of most of foreign policy and domestic problems of today. Cool, case in point showed up.

mnottertail -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 5:34:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nnanji quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick Not a bad analysis, however, I find that both sides have the same basic attitude, that there must be something wrong with you if you disagree. Conservatives are just as guilty of it as are liberals. I personally think it is, at least partly, a result of the 2-party system, where everything must be fit into a this box or that box, there is little room for nuance, and little room for shades of opinion. In short the whole "You're with us or against us" model is behind the phenomenon. Also, it is not really a new thing, it has been this way pretty much as long as the US has been around. I haven't checked where your from, so I don't know. But in California, by default, any conservative has to just acknowledge any liberal pap or lose a job, for instance. I find most conservatives are hard headed about their politics, yes. But here, the liberals literally get sick and need a safe space if you talk heresy. LOL. bullshit. pure utter bullshit.

mnottertail -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 5:35:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nnanji quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick True, the left has the "they don't know what's good for them" thing going on, the right has the "they hate America" thing. Each has it's own tropes. And honestly I think that an increasingly large part of the populace is getting tired of it, thus the rise of things like the Tea Party, the Occupy movement, and the campaigns of Trump and Sanders. I think that the majority of left leaning voters do not really think that right leaning voters are stupid and that the majority of right leaning voters understand that the left-leaning voters do indeed love America. dizzy, I agree there are indeed different tropes, and yes "liberals hate America" is one you hear from the right. I think id qualify that though with at least one thought; when conservatives say that, they are saying liberals hate America as they (the conservatives) understand it and have historically understood it. you can imagine we weren't/aren't too thrilled with "we are x many days away from fundamentally transforming America." You would be mostly correct that most conservatives say that, they are saying liberals hate America as they (the conservatives) understand it and have historically understood it. The trouble is right wing repub policies doesn't even get close to 'understand it and have historically understood it.' The repubs are expert at saying one thing at election time and then once in office...doing nothing of the sort. They have gone completely over the top in favoring corporatism, never saw ANY regulation they didn't hate or rent-seekers tax cut they didn't like while immensely hypocritical on its effects on deficits. Never saw a pentagon toy they didn't fund and then watch as it doubles. Believe the environment is slave to a profit, minimum wage should at whatever a bastardized market will bring it down to. Politically and continually rail against all manner of spending in the social arena while never subjecting the corporation or the business community to such fiscal scrutiny. I would venture to say that while the link is almost all opinion, it is somewhat true but pales in comparison to the absolute arrogant, downright hypocritical smugness of the right. Oh and the reason that most of the left blames most of our domestic and foreign policy problems on GWB, is because he is the cause of most of foreign policy and domestic problems of today. Cool, case in point showed up. Wilbur, you showed up some time ago.

thompsonx -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 5:43:30 PM)
ORIGINAL: bounty44 you can imagine we weren't/aren't too thrilled with "we are x many days away from fundamentally transforming America." As if the ammendments 12,13,14 did not fundamentally transform amerika....which seems to still piss you off.

thompsonx -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 5:52:12 PM)
ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick [ Are you really thinking that the contributions of two or three idiots on this board constitute anything like an accurate portrayal of the way that those left of centre think? Are you really thinking that you could spot a "liberal" if their cock was in your mouth? Temijun was a conservative...trotsky was a liberal. Anything inbetween is something other.

Awareness -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 5:55:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism Great analysis. Great insight. And to think it came from vox. I'd have titled it. . Misunderestimating the right... Tribal rock-throwing. You people are pathetic.

thompsonx -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 6:05:16 PM)
ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Which invites the rejoinder. .. if you're so smart why aren't you rich (elected). What does being rich have to do with being smart? How rich were socrates,jesus or einstein?

Phydeaux -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 6:36:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: But considering the amount of Bush bashing, and invective here, "you are phoning stupid" I see no evidence that their self proclaimed superiority complex is anything but deep seated and authentic. Are you really thinking that the contributions of two or three idiots on this board constitute anything like an accurate portrayal of the way that those left of centre think? quote: Liberal elitists are constantly going on about iq of presidents; ivy league nature of Democrats. . And have since before Adlai stevenson. That's funny, I don't see much of that from normal everyday liberals. I do see a lot of it in partisan blogs and in online fora and comments sections, but again, those are not an accurate portrayal of anything other than the minds of those making the posts. The vast majority of leftists (and rightists for that matter) don't write blogs or make political posts or comments, they just don't, so rather than judging from those things you ought to actually talk to some, get their viewpoint from them, rather than from others. I also think it's telling that you are doing your best to deflect any criticism of the right wing mirror of the supposed smugness of the left. You are engaging in the same basic thing, you are trying to paint the left as impossibly smug while whitewashing the very similar trope of the right. I have some news for you. Neither characterization is actually accurate, but are rather the image promoted by a select few in the media. Jon Stewart is no more an accurate reflection of the average left leaning voter than Rush Limbaugh is of the average right-leaning voter. No, but I'm not making the representation based on 2-3 posters here. I make it based on here, on air america (when it flew), the rachel maddox show. NPR. Ed whats his name. The national liberal host who used to call it the bush crime family- Mike Malloy? I base it on Dan Rather and 'main stream' media. I repeat - liberals really don't get any idea. Conservatives are used to being bashed. So we shut up and vote against you. I've been to FAR more liberal poliical gatherings than I have been right wing I'm not trying to deflect any criticism on the right. I don't think the left and right are equally to blame - for sure. But there are a lot of criticism of the right I think is valid. Ceding the black or minority vote - is stupid, counterproductive, and morally wrong. Doing any king of corporate welfare - is wrong. I am convinced righties actually care more about invidividual than lefties do - but are horrible at walking the walk, and telling the story of why its true. Righties fail to offer a convincing reason for the poor to vote for them. Checkbook conservatism is not enough - people want to see and know you care. So, if you were ever to discuss these topics, you would see my criticism of righties. But no, I don't think you can accuse righties of political correctness. No, I don't think you can accuse them of elitism. et.c

Phydeaux -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 6:38:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism Great analysis. Great insight. And to think it came from vox. I'd have titled it. . Misunderestimating the right... Tribal rock-throwing. You people are pathetic. So let me get this straight. The man who claims moral superiority just engaged in .. tribal rock throwing. Iron much?

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 6:43:42 PM)
quote: I am convinced righties actually care more about invidividual than lefties do I disagree. They may well case about different individuals or different aspects of those individuals' lives, but mostly they differ about what will in fact help those individuals. You have to remember the basic definitions of left and right, the left believes that social hierarchies are undesirable while the right believe they are desirable. This is the root meaning of the terms.

thompsonx -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 6:47:15 PM)
ORIGINAL: Phydeaux But no, I don't think you can accuse righties of political correctness. No, I don't think you can accuse them of elitism. et.c It is obvious that you do not think at all.

Phydeaux -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 6:51:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: Which invites the rejoinder. .. if you're so smart why aren't you rich (elected). Because I love being a barmaid, which doesn't pay well, and I have a very expensive hobby (taking university courses).[:D][:D] But you see the premise...bank accounts = intelligence. If that isn't smug...nothing is. However, there are and have been many very intelligent and rich liberals. First, Dizzy, my comment wasn't directed at you. Apologies if you took it that way. As someone that ended up with almost 700 credits I understand the hobby. Second, all your post demonstrates Mr. Rogers, is that you were either not careful in reading my post, or that you didn't understand it. I said liberal assertions of superiority invited a rejoinder. The article is about liberal smugness - I'm telling you how the common man - discredits you. The entire article talk about the liberal article of faith that their position is superior. That anyone with a brain must think this way. I've pointed to the same tendency here, where liberals believe their point does not need to be supported - it is simply and article of faith. "Think as I think, or else be a toad.". This despite the fact that facts and results discredit your opinions so often it has become a trope. I posted an article where liberals are regarded as ineffective, effete and unrealistic. It wasn't all bad - they were also found to be creative and idealistic. But the point is not that I think money or election is necessarily the measurement stick of life. It is what I said - that liberal 'superiority' is so easily mocked by example. Hillary claims to be the most qualified candidate for the job by the left. And you advance this claim seriously -when she has not a single substantive policy success. Her qualifications are: she's a woman, a democrat, and she married bill clinton. Do you not see how we cannot take your claims of superiority seriously?

Phydeaux -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 6:53:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: I am convinced righties actually care more about invidividual than lefties do I disagree. They may well case about different individuals or different aspects of those individuals' lives, but mostly they differ about what will in fact help those individuals. You have to remember the basic definitions of left and right, the left believes that social hierarchies are undesirable while the right believe they are desirable. This is the root meaning of the terms. I neither believe that definition nor accept it. Left or Right started from the time of the Fifth estate. Google what it meant.

Zonie63 -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 7:20:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism Great analysis. Great insight. And to think it came from vox. I'd have titled it. . Misunderestimating the right... Believe it or not, I think there are some grains of truth in this article. But as others have said, much the same could be said about the right. I think both liberals and conservatives can be divided into sub-categories depending on whether they emphasize social issues or economic/class issues. There are also issues related to foreign policy which might divide liberals and conservatives, but not all that much in practice. Elite liberals and elite conservatives are also basically on the same page when it comes to fiscal and economic policies, with only slight shades of difference between them. The only real issues that they actually fight over in the mainstream are the social issues or anything that's not directly related to class, whether it's the environment, gun control, culture wars, religion, gender issues - anything and everything except class. As a result, if people see no difference between the two factions when it comes to issues important to working people, then they'll vote based on their stance on the issues presented to them. Most people don't even vote anyway. Most feel there's no point in it, that neither party really cares about them, so they become disenfranchised and disaffected by both sides. They become apathetic because the politicians don't give them anything to care about.

thompsonx -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 7:22:14 PM)
ORIGINAL: Phydeaux As someone that ended up with almost 700 credits I understand the hobby. Roflmfao

joether -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 7:36:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism Great analysis. Great insight. And to think it came from vox. I'd have titled it. . Misunderestimating the right... An amusing pile of rubbish. Written by an author whom is butt hurt that conservatives can not live up to half decent standards. I've seen works like these from other authors and sites. They all try diminish liberal politics by using threats, insults, and other 'junior high school mentalities'. They can not admit one aspect of the word liberal: its about freedom of the individual. Meanwhile can we really call conservatives.....conservative? They are against advancement of humanity on every level. From technology to music. They seem to want/demand things to go back to the 1950's. Back when fear ruled the airwaves and news print. No, we should call them regressives.

Marini -> RE: Suggested reading for all liberals (4/21/2016 7:51:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism Great analysis. Great insight. And to think it came from vox. I'd have titled it. . Misunderestimating the right... Believe it or not, I think there are some grains of truth in this article. But as others have said, much the same could be said about the right. I think both liberals and conservatives can be divided into sub-categories depending on whether they emphasize social issues or economic/class issues. There are also issues related to foreign policy which might divide liberals and conservatives, but not all that much in practice. Elite liberals and elite conservatives are also basically on the same page when it comes to fiscal and economic policies, with only slight shades of difference between them. The only real issues that they actually fight over in the mainstream are the social issues or anything that's not directly related to class, whether it's the environment, gun control, culture wars, religion, gender issues - anything and everything except class. As a result, if people see no difference between the two factions when it comes to issues important to working people, then they'll vote based on their stance on the issues presented to them. Most people don't even vote anyway. Most feel there's no point in it, that neither party really cares about them, so they become disenfranchised and disaffected by both sides. They become apathetic because the politicians don't give them anything to care about. [sm=agree.gif] I agree and this is a major point. Liberals and conservatives tend to be united on the fiscal and economic policies, and that's what many people are concerned with on both sides of the aisle. The people on both sides are fed up, and most people care more about the lack of jobs, lack of opportunities, free falling middle class, lack of affordable housing, etc. than most social issues. It's a matter of what is most immediately critical, and those issues are not being adequately addressed front and center, by either party. Most of the crap that goes on and makes headlines, is to keep the focus off the real issues. Diversion seems to work, as this country goes down the fucking hill. Keep arguing over bullshit, and you won't notice the ship is sinking until it's too late.

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