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Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/7/2016 8:18:29 AM   
kkaliforniaa


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This thread isn't meant to stir up trouble, rather it's to look for how other people handle aftercare [in personal relationships, not paid ones].

Many people agree that aftercare is important but is there an unwritten, but mostly agreed upon way with how it should be handled.

-- Should a discussion regarding how things went be held immediately after the session, or should it wait until a later point [an hour after; before the next session; at your next meal together; etc]?
-- Immediately after the session is over, while tending to any wounds [etc], should phrases like, "You did a good job" and "I'm proud of you" be used, or should phrases like "I'm here", "Are you okay?", "Do you need anything?" be used? **All of these examples SEEM harmless, but in my opinion the first two could be harmful. For example, weight loss. Some people might get their wires crossed [so to say], when told "You're doing really well losing weight", they might think that continued weight loss would keep people happy, but instead becomes an eating disorder.. Add to the equation of limits being pushed farther than a submissive knows they're ready for, etc. If it turns out the submissive isn't ready to be pushed and reinforcements like, "I'm proud of you" are used, the submissive could wind up feeling ashamed..

I ask these questions because aftercare, like the title suggests, seems like an excellent time to do a little brainwashing [regardless of whether or not subspace has been achieved]

A few examples where the mind can be subjected to brainwashing:
-- Comparing this to a domestic abuse situation. Person A is beaten by Person B. After a while Person B has calmed down and returns to Person A, saying things like, "I'm sorry", "I love you", etc. Person A may be feeling regret and shame [etc], but the seemingly kind words from Person B condition them to believe the beating was okay to begin with..
-- Edging someone while occasionally being spanked. Over time, the end result becomes a desire for spanking regardless of if the person enjoys being spanked.

An old post discussed something similar. A submissive had been humiliated and degraded by a domme, later he felt angry about the situation. It is unclear though whether he was at any point interested in being humiliated. Either way, someone suggested the following
quote:

did you ejaculate during the session? Many men experience a crash after ejaculation, and some things that were intensely exciting before ejaculation become utterly unexciting afterward. If the session was on-going after you experienced that crash, it might have had a particularly negative emotional effect on you


Based on that, couldn't it be argued that discussing how a session went was part of the session itself, as emotions are still fresh and one probably can't process everything that happened in a matter of seconds.


The mind is a fragile thing, and with the right stimulus it can be permanently damaged.


On a related note: in your opinion do professional dominants [male or female] use care when performing aftercare, or are clients treated like a commodity, and only the basics [asking if the clients is okay, generally in reference to the physical self] are covered?
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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/7/2016 11:38:05 AM   
DesFIP


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How do you have a weight loss session? That doesn't make sense.

But the way around this is not to focus on weight loss to begin with. Focus on health and fitness. Don't decide for yourself what their goals should be. Have their doctor set the goals.

But there's never anything wrong in noticing that someone's working hard and applauding that.
What would you prefer in a manager, one who acknowledges that you did a great job on a project or one who ignores it.

Personally, we don't disect play right after. I will mention physical problems that occurred. But I don't want to be brought down by a serious discussion right then. Although if there wasn't a problem I don't have anything to discuss aside from "I really loved when you did X. Please do it again some time".

I don't normally compare abuse to BDSM. I'm not sure why you think they're related.

As far as edging, I'd call that behavioral conditioning and when the reinforcement stops, the conditioning disappears. So people who have been trained only to orgasm on command find that about six months after the relationship ends, so does the conditioning.

Hell, I know someone who was afraid of flying. She would go to a hypnotist several times in the month prior. But six months later she needed to return to the hypnotist. It just doesn't hold without reinforcing it. Like training a dog not to pull on the leash, if you stop controlling it when they get overexcited, they'll start to pull again.

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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/8/2016 12:31:21 AM   
kkaliforniaa


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Ignoring that you clearly weren't paying attention to what was written, Des.. ..

Let's assume, based on your theory of behavioral conditioning, that the only way reinforcement stops is for the relationship to end.
Holy crap! I'd like to meet these people who go SIX MONTHS without masturbating AND thinking about past relationships! If the reinforcement was the relationship [all parts of it, since it is near impossible for most people to associate only one thing with their partner], and it ended, that must mean that from the day the relationship ends it is never thought about again. I mean you said so yourself, "once the reinforcement stops so does the conditioning", and the reinforcement could only be BOTH! Both simultaneously provide positive feelings [the dominant making the submissive happy sexually and non-sexually], and people do occasionally think about past relationships, but sometimes negative feelings get mixed in.. I'd like actual proof on your THEORY. If you believe so strongly in it, you could prove it. Take a fetish that is a hard limit for you, arouse yourself daily [by thinking about what you enjoy sexually], orgasming [daily, regardless of how long it takes] ONLY to the idea of your hard limit, for let's say six months, after those first six months, continue masturbating daily but never think about your hard limit again. If you can go that second six months without thinking about your hard limit [and without outside help], then I'll believe you.

And since you must be right, otherwise you wouldn't have posted what you believe, then alcoholics, binge eaters, etc, must want to continue with their negative behaviors. Or, if they've been "cured", there is 0% chance they'll ever return. Hmm. I wonder why some people "fall off the wagon", others steer clear of their habit and avoid triggers *shrug*. Could it be that negative emotions CAN be hard wired to positive behaviors/rewards

Your dog analogy doesn't hold any weight. Many dogs are trained that there are times and places to get excited, thus they don't go chasing after "squirrels" at the drop of a hat. The fact that your dog is different suggests that you have been training your dog differently than those dogs who don't pull on leashes. Your dog analogy wouldn't be any different than if you had a cat, then changed where the litter box was. A properly trained cat wouldn't continue "going" where the litter box used to be, rather they would find where it is now [*excluding cats in new homes].. You also proved my theory on aftercare potentially being dangerous, with your flying example. Your friend went to a hypnotist let's say once a week for a month and flew once in six months, and expected the behavior to stick. That's no different than putting a litter box out for a cat a few times, then expecting the cat to remember six months later that it's supposed to use the litter box. If aftercare is done several times a week, that eventually becomes second nature. Just like if a slave has done a good job at something, they're given a reward. You're theory would suggest that once the relationship is over, the slave will go back to whatever bad habits they had, whether it be poor posture, unhealthy eating habits, etc.


< Message edited by kkaliforniaa -- 7/8/2016 12:34:07 AM >

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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/8/2016 12:18:30 PM   
peppermint


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Sorry kkaliforniaa. I read what your wrote several times. It makes no sense. You start saying there is an mostly agreed upon way of doing aftercare. I have to say that there is no mostly agreed upon way of doing aftercare. Then for some reason you start to compare weight loss with all this and how to compliment or not compliment someone on a weight loss as complimenting someone might cause them to develop an eating disorder. What does this have to do with BDSM play? Then you seem to wonder when to discuss a session. Then you start to bring brainwashing into all this.

Have to admit. I'm completely lost as to what point you were trying to make in the first place. You are here and there and everywhere with no goal. My suggestion is to try one single idea and go with it. Then maybe someone will know what this is all about. For example, the discussion could be if aftercare is necessary. Another example would be what aftercare should consist of. A third might be as to when a loving BDSM relationship becomes abuse. A fourth would be to discuss if a professional dominant needs to do aftercare as part of a session. Another might be whether brainwashing can be part of BDSM. Pick one and stick to it. Don't combine them all into a mixed conglomeration that really makes no sense.

Then at the end of all this you want to know how professional dominants handle aftercare. Sorry, I would think it depends on what the client wanted and expected. You get what you pay for. If you want to be cuddled and covered with a blanket as part of your session, make sure the professional knows that you are paying for that. The professional would have to make sure there was time left to handle the aftercare the client requires.

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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/8/2016 4:59:47 PM   
angelikaJ


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First: aftercare is just taking care of whatever physical and/or emotional needs present themselves after a scene.
A blanket and something warm to drink if one is cold, something to drink and/or eat , a cuddle or for some people being left alone.
Checking in later to offer support is also a form of aftercare.

Dominants/Tops might need aftercare.

It is individual and I suppose that may relate to your caution regarding saying "I am proud of you". But the thing is, it is very individual. One should know one's play partner and if this is a pro-session then asking what types of aftercare are needed/wanted should be part of the up-front negotiations.


None of that has nothing to do with abuse or brainwashing.

Next: spanking someone who does not want to be spanked and manipulating them with edging does not sound like a consensual activity, unless the person being spanked is curious about impact play or pain or sensual spanking.
In that regard context is everything.




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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/9/2016 11:43:14 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kkaliforniaa
This thread isn't meant to stir up trouble, rather it's to look for how other people handle aftercare [in personal relationships, not paid ones].

Many people agree that aftercare is important but is there an unwritten, but mostly agreed upon way with how it should be handled.

No. Just no. In my opinion, aftercare should be handled a) depending on the individuals involved and b) depending on the activities involved. I highly doubt there's any 'mostly agreed' anything.

quote:

-- Should a discussion regarding how things went be held immediately after the session, or should it wait until a later point [an hour after; before the next session; at your next meal together; etc]?
-- Immediately after the session is over, while tending to any wounds [etc], should phrases like, "You did a good job" and "I'm proud of you" be used, or should phrases like "I'm here", "Are you okay?", "Do you need anything?" be used? **All of these examples SEEM harmless, but in my opinion the first two could be harmful. For example, weight loss. Some people might get their wires crossed [so to say], when told "You're doing really well losing weight", they might think that continued weight loss would keep people happy, but instead becomes an eating disorder.. Add to the equation of limits being pushed farther than a submissive knows they're ready for, etc. If it turns out the submissive isn't ready to be pushed and reinforcements like, "I'm proud of you" are used, the submissive could wind up feeling ashamed..

I was going to split this up. Then, I thought better of it.

Let's take the physical side first. Depending on what kind of play was involved, immediate physical check over is probably more prudent. Do all of your parts work the same way when we're done playing as when we started? You have to count in things like wound care, body temperature is regulated again, etc, etc, etc.

For most of my play, I happen to be a fan on next day recap. I don't really want the evaluation from someone when their head is still endorphin buzzing because for some folks, that's just not the time to give a level headed opinion. More often than not, if I'm negotiating casual play with someone, that follow up email the next day is a requirement, not an option. This gives both people enough time to come back to regular brain chemical activity, so they aren't influenced by space and can give an honest assessment.

For those people who only play with their primary partner, it's a lot easier for you because you have many more opportunities for a fifteen minute talk. Block off some quiet time and discuss what worked and what didn't.

However, if you feel that a compliment about how well you did during play or a comment about your weight loss, or some other innocuous thing is crossing the territory into abuse because you are oh, so fragile, in the position to be manipulated into self-harming behavior, (i.e., so willing to become anorexic, etc) you might want to consider no longer playing until you have resolved that issue.

quote:

I ask these questions because aftercare, like the title suggests, seems like an excellent time to do a little brainwashing [regardless of whether or not subspace has been achieved]

Can I make a kind suggestion? If you honestly think you are being brainwashed by a little pillow talk, I implore you to GTFO.

quote:

A few examples where the mind can be subjected to brainwashing:
-- Comparing this to a domestic abuse situation. Person A is beaten by Person B. After a while Person B has calmed down and returns to Person A, saying things like, "I'm sorry", "I love you", etc. Person A may be feeling regret and shame [etc], but the seemingly kind words from Person B condition them to believe the beating was okay to begin with..
-- Edging someone while occasionally being spanked. Over time, the end result becomes a desire for spanking regardless of if the person enjoys being spanked.

No. Kink is *not* domestic violence and it is a travesty when people start trying to compare Sm as such.

quote:

An old post discussed something similar. A submissive had been humiliated and degraded by a domme, later he felt angry about the situation. It is unclear though whether he was at any point interested in being humiliated. Either way, someone suggested the following

quote:

did you ejaculate during the session? Many men experience a crash after ejaculation, and some things that were intensely exciting before ejaculation become utterly unexciting afterward. If the session was on-going after you experienced that crash, it might have had a particularly negative emotional effect on you

Perhaps this would have been better suited for a subject like retroactive removal of consent? Not a theory that I'm big on but it would make a decent thread.

I think I should interject this here. While not the majority, there are certainly bottoms out there who are just as damaging as the so-called bad tops.

In something like the above, a top should never accept the bottom's consent at all because, after the fact, they decided they didn't like the play. Hogwash.

quote:

Based on that, couldn't it be argued that discussing how a session went was part of the session itself, as emotions are still fresh and one probably can't process everything that happened in a matter of seconds.

In my opinion, aftercare should be a part of the negotiation process. Just like the play, the people involved have to be aware of their wants/needs about how we're going to wrap this whole thing up.

However, if the bottom's aftercare needs are excessive or not proportionate to the activity, that might be the person that the top should just not engage with.

quote:

The mind is a fragile thing, and with the right stimulus it can be permanently damaged.

I would have to say, if a bottom's mind is so "fragile" that they feel 'broken' after some light play or a compliment during aftercare, it's re-evaluation time.

quote:

On a related note: in your opinion do professional dominants [male or female] use care when performing aftercare, or are clients treated like a commodity, and only the basics [asking if the clients is okay, generally in reference to the physical self] are covered?

I'm not a professional Dominant. Never have been.

Just as an opinion and some conjecture, why would people think professional Dominants (or pro subs or switches, for that matter) should be any different when dealing with clients of any other profession?

If I go to the hair salon, and say I want this, this, and that done, and the gal cutting my hair does exactly that, is it her fault if I decide I don't like the cut a few days later?




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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/9/2016 4:55:01 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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For me aftercare consists of nice cold drink and some snuggle times, ideally with snacks. If I'm really shagged out, then maybe some Shakespeare on DVD to doze off to.

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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/12/2016 5:21:24 AM   
DocStrange


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I do not see aftercare as a chance for brainwashing. Aftercare usually is needed to allow the body to recover physically. Electrolytes, muscle fatigue etc. There are instances where sub space occurs and the person needs to come down off their sub space high. Are they highly open to suggestion at this point? The answer is no. Similar to hypnosis, you cannot force someone to do something they do not want to do. Hypnotic suggests only work if that is something the person is already receptive to do. Brainwashing also would require a lot more than just aftercare sessions. Once the person comes out of subspace they can think clearly again and really access things against their moral code.


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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/12/2016 8:21:10 PM   
notaneophyte


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The mind is amazingly strong and robust....capable of pushing an individual beyond their perceived limits


Far too many people, however, are weak minded!!!!

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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/13/2016 10:14:53 PM   
kkaliforniaa


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Sorry to the one person who in many of my threads has remained a voice of reason, thank you for your patience.
My one comment being, consensual can sometimes be tricky.. Many a person has consented to sex because they were under the impression they would be liked. This can translate into fetishes as well.. One could argue this is coercion, but it's still a grey area if there is no pressure put on either party. True, when it comes to kinks, they should be discussed and respected but emotions can get in the way of moral codes.


Hmm. If there is no one UNWRITTEN [a word that many people chose to ignore] agreed upon way of doing aftercare, why is it that many people follow similar methods? Like someone said, each person is different, but how many people toss someone off a cliff as a way of performing aftercare. No one, well there ya go [yes, extreme example but the point is made]. How many people snuggle as a means of aftercare. If the majority do, wow! Unwritten yet agreed on! Offer food and drink.. ..

*bleep!* Please point out EXACTLY where I said "BDSM IS ABUSE", because I don't remember ever saying that! Yes, I did mention a domestic abuse situation where one partner beat the other, but where was my comparison STATING that beating and spanking are one in the same [legally speaking, they are, so THERE!]

As for brainwashing.. Let's see. Examples of popular brainwashing, and avoiding the controversial topics [as fun as that is]
1. Informercials and commercials. Ever fall victim to some fitness device or beauty cream that claims to remove wrinkles or something. That's not brainwashing, why not? You believed enough to spend money on the product!
2. I'll just use one word on this one. Religion
Many people have this preconceived notion that brainwashing is [simple example] like The Manchurian Candidate, victims are basically zombies. It doesn't have to be. Refer to my example of domestic abuse. Explain how that is NOT a case of brainwashing. Take some heartfelt emotions, mix in some words of kindness, and voila, the perfect start to a good brainwashing.

As for professional versus non-professional dominants and how aftercare is performed, many a professional dominant has been depicted [not just in fictional tv shows and movies, but in articles and documentaries as well] as treating clients as commodities, thus caring more about giving the client what they want, not considering the impact it will have [* a client probably shouldn't be allowed to drive immediately after a session, because if they're in any sort of trance that just seems dangerous *shrug*, something the "professional" might not consider].. .. You can't compare going to the barber with going to a dominant. How many times do you think you could go to a barber and say "I want you to cut my hair" and they cut your hair how you want. Probably not very often because you're not specific. But many a person, I'm sure, has gone to a professional, and the professional treated "Frank" the same as everyone else, and since "Frank" is new, "Frank" didn't think to specify anything.

DocStrange, you realise that you didn't read anything I wrote really. Using what you said against you, domestic abuse victims haven't been "brainwashed". They WANTED to be treated terribly [*which is not what I believe]!

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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/13/2016 11:21:22 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

consensual can sometimes be tricky

No it's not.
quote:

but the point is made

Stupid fucking point.

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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/14/2016 2:33:42 PM   
SnarkDom


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I totally agree with TDC here. Consent is not tricky in the slightest.

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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/19/2016 1:13:25 AM   
Greta75


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Aftercare is not brainwashing IF you aren't doing it to brainwash someone.

I mean, like the others, I am puzzled as to what is the point that you are trying to make?

That Aftercare is bad?

First of all, before anything goes on, there has to be mutual consent, before it carries on. On top of that, just to be extra safe, there will be safe words, IF any point person gets too uncomfortable and wants to stop.

Aftercare is the feel good, bonding part after the whole experience. Discussion of what was great and what was uncomfortable can be discussed openly too. I don't see how this is brainwashing.

It's not about, saying "Good job!". I mean, it's not like training like animal. Or being assigned a task by your boss. You are dealing with a human being you just sexually interacted with bdsm ways. He would instead just hug you with love in his eyes and tell you that you are so beautiful to him!

I see aftercare as vanilla lovey dovey ness. And also an open discussion of anything that didn't feel comfortable.

If it was consensual in the beginning, aftercare can never be used as brainwashing.

But if it wasn't consensual, then, yea let's say a woman kidnapped against her will, instilled as sex slave, gets the kind and cruel treatment constantly. All meant to nurture Stockholm's syndrome into her, then yea, in that situation, after care is meant to brain wash.

But definitely not in consensual situations, where both are doing something they both mutually love.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 7/19/2016 1:16:02 AM >

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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/19/2016 9:32:41 PM   
LadyPact


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Fast reply.

If I were a female submissive, I think I'd be insulted with this post. The "oh, I consented, but I had sex in hopes the person would like me" stuff should make self respecting f /s-type folks sick.


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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/19/2016 11:03:56 PM   
shiftyw


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Fast reply.

If I were a female submissive, I think I'd be insulted with this post. The "oh, I consented, but I had sex in hopes the person would like me" stuff should make self respecting f /s-type folks sick.




Or anyone who CARES about consent. Does a TOP want that shit?

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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/20/2016 8:23:54 AM   
LadyPact


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The problem I had with it is that it's got 'OMG, poor, easily, manipulated lil subbie' (and yes, I said it that way for a reason) written between the lines all over it. Seriously, it comes off like a top has to be walking on eggshells in the difference between saying "good job" or "I'm here for you" because we have to be worried that the individual is so fragile in post play communication that they are full of landmines that can be hit by paying a freaking compliment.

I have to admit, in the majority of cases, I just can't get into the theory that we have to treat bottoms/s-types like children. You folks on the other side of the slash are (supposed to be) perfectly competent adults who have the brain power to decide if you want to engage in play or not. (Speaking in general terms when play is negotiated and only consensual activities happen.) A part of that is knowing yourself and communicating to the top. Especially in casual play, you are an equal partner in this experience. Not some kind of perpetual victim where the top has to be afraid of everything they say or do.

This was kind of cute:

quote:

Let's assume, based on your theory of behavioral conditioning, that the only way reinforcement stops is for the relationship to end.
Holy crap! I'd like to meet these people who go SIX MONTHS without masturbating AND thinking about past relationships!

Name's Pact. Pleasure to meet you.

Not all people are the type to pine away over every past relationship. I did plenty of crying in my Cheerio's over tk but I can say with just as much sincerity that there were certain s-types that, once it was over, I never had a pleasant thought of them again. Heck, I hadn't thought about my ex-husband until last week when I had to fill out a form about dates of marriage and divorce. In general, I really don't masturbate and I've got plenty of posts out there talking about the fact that I don't.

I also don't buy stuff off of tv, thinking it's going to transform me in some way. The last thing I bought from tv was a "The Walking Dead" t-shirt. It didn't make me think it would make me a survivor of the zombie apocalypse.


_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/20/2016 9:32:21 AM   
WickedsDesire


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I like to ravish them into a state of orgasmic bewilderment then thrash the bewilderment out of them with a potato masher, because I truly care.

Abuse is abuse, brainwashing/conditioning is conditioning and so on. Generally if I have to look at e.g. a picture of someone who requires aftercare out-with; water, sugar drink, some coffee, after glow muffins, further cock stuffings, then I generally feel uneasy, sometimes disgusted/appalled and wonder what kind of human does that to another, or lets it be done to them – even I cannot condition that out of those lost souls.

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RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/28/2016 8:45:55 AM   
kaleidoscopekink


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i can actually see a lot of validity regarding various points made here & feel a bit frustrated the exchanges seemed to take on such an adversarial tenor so quickly vs trying to further everyone's understanding (but that's kinda how i roll in general, lol)

i get unfair miscategorization of bdsm as abuse can be incredibly irritating esp as it reinforces stigma that a lot of mainstream society already has against most anything "alternative" ~ at the same time there are a lot of folks who are simply abusive jerks &/or already "brainwashed" individuals/unhealthy victirs abuse (not saying all surviors, but there are plenty who have indeed been impacted negatively to an extent it continues to interfere w/them truly understanding &/or advocating for their desires/boundaries/etc) & so on who think/pretend they are into the lifestyle which can cause harm for all

it seems to me there are some fundamental differences in the backgrounds, experiences, & interests of those involved. i suppose for someone who's been "in the lifestyle" for a while & only plays w/other who either have or have fairly firm idea of boundaries these issues may seem obvious, but for newbies &/or those interested in pushing limits it might be more confusing. fwiw, "consent" is even becoming seen as far more complex in the "vanilla" world so that many colleges & universities in the usa are struggling with policies/classes/etc to ensure folks are on the same page.

as someone who has had these interests literally longer than i can remember & who is perhaps more "weak minded" than many of the respondents in this thread i can honestly say similar concerns to those the op made have plagued & prevented me from exploring things irl more. i can imagine that many others who might feel similarly could be intimidated & feel further silenced by this thread instead of relieved and invited to explore their concerns.

it does seem to me that aftercare, like most everything in any relationship but Esp bdsm ones, is ultimately about what works for those involved & clear communication vs assuming anything is essential - At The Same Time it sure would be nice to think that someone could bring up concerns (whether or not they're deemed "correctly" articulated or even proper worries to start with) in a group of bdsm folks & be offered not only perspective but ideally encouragement vs derision

im incredibly new here & interacting via my phone so please forgive any errors in spelling &/or judgement ~ no offense is ever intended


(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/28/2016 12:50:54 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
Even when new I was able to consent. It isn't rocket science. "Hey, I want to do these things to you, are you interested?".
If they say"yes to one and three, no to four and five, and what do you mean by two?" Then you have further conversation explaining what you mean.

And in return, you get to say "I really need four or I'm not interested" and allow them to ask more details or say they'll try it or wish you good luck finding someone more compatible.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to kaleidoscopekink)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Aftercare vs Brainwashing - 7/28/2016 6:09:38 PM   
kaleidoscopekink


Posts: 3
Joined: 7/24/2016
Status: offline

thanks for the reply & well wishes, DesFlip ~ it's great you've been so clear all along; however, just as not everyone has the same interest in different kinks not every has the same outlook &/or experience as you & i am still very disappointed by the lack of understanding demonstrated by most in this thread (apologies for having replied to you specifically, meant for it to be addressed to the entire group but my phone doesnt seem to always play well w/this site, lol)

im curious about those who keep insisting "consent" is simple/"not rocket science" etc esp as it is even becoming seen as far more complex in the "vanilla" world so that many colleges & universities in the usa are struggling with policies/classes/etc to ensure folks are on the same page. hell, even legally speaking there's been plenty of blurred lines! again, im not saying All newbies (or abuse survivors) are challenged by this; however blanketly denying it might be a nuanced topic seems to do very little to help anyone & potentially more than a bit to harm some.

(in reply to kkaliforniaa)
Profile   Post #: 20
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