RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this?

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/10/2006 11:44:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Israel is like the bully fighting a girl. To win, Israel has to beat the living shit out of Hezbollah or it is a loss for Israel. All Hezbollah has to do is avoid being destroyed by Israel and they win. They will emerge more popular, more powerful, and more influential than ever. Not only that, it will destroy the myth that Israel is omnipotent and encourage and embolden others to attack Israel.

Smart generals pick and choose their battles, history is replete with victorious generals and victorious countries winning their way to defeat.

They have made the same mistake we did in invading Iraq. They did not have a clear game plan and they are paying dearly for it. They will inflict great and horrible damage on Hezbollah, but that is not victory and the Arab world will see that.

Israel is the bully? Israel is fighting for it's life against the Syrian and Iranian backed Hezbollah. For most of it's history it has been fighting against all the Arab countries combined. Their game plan is to survive and defeat an enemy that has sworn to destroy them. You might want to cut back on your Al Jezeera fix.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/11/2006 4:33:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Israel is like the bully fighting a girl. To win, Israel has to beat the living shit out of Hezbollah or it is a loss for Israel. All Hezbollah has to do is avoid being destroyed by Israel and they win. They will emerge more popular, more powerful, and more influential than ever. Not only that, it will destroy the myth that Israel is omnipotent and encourage and embolden others to attack Israel.

Smart generals pick and choose their battles, history is replete with victorious generals and victorious countries winning their way to defeat.

They have made the same mistake we did in invading Iraq. They did not have a clear game plan and they are paying dearly for it. They will inflict great and horrible damage on Hezbollah, but that is not victory and the Arab world will see that.

Israel is the bully? Israel is fighting for it's life against the Syrian and Iranian backed Hezbollah. For most of it's history it has been fighting against all the Arab countries combined. Their game plan is to survive and defeat an enemy that has sworn to destroy them. You might want to cut back on your Al Jezeera fix.

Israel isn't fighting for its life, it is a lie it and the US administration likes to shout to justify its terrorizing of the Lebanese population. Israel has a vast state of the art military machine compared to Syria and Iran and it has the backing of the world's only superpower. 70% of its borders are with countries it has peaceful diplomatic relations with.

If anyone is putting Israel in danger it is successive Israeli goivernments who think it can impose peace on its own terms while its citizens steal land in occupied territories in an effort to build a greater Israel while ignoring the justified grievances of the dispossessed refugees.

(in reply to Estring)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/12/2006 10:05:54 PM

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Estring,

I have no problem with the Israelis putting a bullet into the forehead of any Hezbollah fighters. So with that said, can you explain to me how exactly Israel is threatened by a band of guerillas with rockets that rarely kill people?

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/13/2006 1:25:31 AM

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I guess if you research the Hezbollah yiou';d find that they are akin to the PLO and tere are more than a band of Palistinian fanatice who want Israel destroyed.. I just watched the CS Documentary of the 6 Day War when Israel was severely threatened and fightiung for it's life.. A nation never forgets such things. If the truth be known I doubt if there will ever be a time awhen many of the Arab countries will happily life in peace with Israel and certainly not the Oalistanians, they appear to want to have Israel for their own especially Jeruslem.. Just my take but I feel there is a strong case for Israel using tactical nukes..

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(in reply to CrappyDom)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/13/2006 2:39:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

I guess if you research the Hezbollah yiou';d find that they are akin to the PLO and tere are more than a band of Palistinian fanatice who want Israel destroyed.. I just watched the CS Documentary of the 6 Day War when Israel was severely threatened and fightiung for it's life.. A nation never forgets such things. If the truth be known I doubt if there will ever be a time awhen many of the Arab countries will happily life in peace with Israel and certainly not the Oalistanians, they appear to want to have Israel for their own especially Jeruslem.. Just my take but I feel there is a strong case for Israel using tactical nukes..

You keep forgetting this state of affairs exists because Israel was set up by terrorists so to imply Arab terrorists just appeared out of the ether is rather disingenuous. You just have to read the candid words of the founders of Israel to see that they have no illusions about what they did which was to steal Arab land. Israel were the inspiration for both the PLO and Hezzbollah which wouldn't exist without the existence of the Zionist terrorists in the first place.

If your home and land was stolen from you, I'm sure you wouldn't put out the red carpet for those that stole it but would want to fight to get your land back. Maybe you wouldn't, maybe you see a just cause in the stealing of your land. I can only assume that people who are descendents of colonists see a common cause with Israelis because they too live on stolen land.

As for the suggestion of using tactical nukes, you must be one of the mad bible literalists that see the return of the Jews to the holy lands as preclude to Armageddon and the second coming. This conflict will only be solved through negotiations and some sense of justice on all sides. If Israel had any sense they would seek a just solution while they are in the ascendency before the balance of power changes and history suggests all powers are temporary.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/13/2006 2:41:01 AM >

(in reply to IronBear)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/13/2006 7:59:50 AM

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How exactly would you target Hezbollah with "tactical nukes" for heaven's sake.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/13/2006 6:07:20 PM

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"How exactly would you target Hezbollah with "tactical nukes" for heaven's sake. "

Same way we do, bomb them back into the stone age and charge it to the American Taxpayer.

Depleted uranium weapons anyone ?

T

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/13/2006 6:14:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Estring,

I have no problem with the Israelis putting a bullet into the forehead of any Hezbollah fighters. So with that said, can you explain to me how exactly Israel is threatened by a band of guerillas with rockets that rarely kill people?

*emphasis added*

Through no lack of effort on the terrorists part.

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Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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(in reply to CrappyDom)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/14/2006 12:24:31 AM

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This is interesting and shows how under threat and fighting for their lives Israel were. It appears that the US had no intention of being a honest peace broker.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1844021,00.html

(in reply to Level)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/14/2006 12:28:56 AM

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Level,

You are right, the terrorists have a much harder time killing innocent civilians than the Israelies do.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/14/2006 12:51:46 AM

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Joined: 7/31/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom
Estring, I have no problem with the Israelis putting a bullet into the forehead of any Hezbollah fighters. So with that said, can you explain to me how exactly Israel is threatened by a band of guerillas with rockets that rarely kill people?

If I am not mistaken this whole thing started when Hezbollah crossed over into
Israel, killed 8 Israeli soldiers and kidnapped one soldier. What would you
do, if terrorists killed many member of your family, and starting shooting
rockets at you. If I am not mistaken over 50 Israelis have died from these
rocket attacks, and 500 Israelis have been seriously injured. The question
arises do Israelis have the right to live without having to fear some rocket
will kill them or their wife or their children. What would you do to protect
your wife and your children? What would you do, if some group of terrorists
living peacefully in another country were launching rockets at your wife and
children? The fact is most Lebenese support Hezbollah. If a country
allows terrorists to operate from their land, the civilians of that country
bear responsiblity for what the terrorists operating on their land do.
If I had terrorists operating out of my house and from my back yard,
I would understand if the people these terrorists were tryiing to kill,
dropped a bomb on my head.

There are 1,000 times more Arabs and Muslims than there are
Israelis. There would not be an Israeli left if in a war of attrition
Israel killed just one Arab and Muslim for each Israeli killed.

The US fire-bombed Tokyo and other major Japanese cities.
We nuked Hirshima and Nagasaki.

If you ever saw the documenry on the killing of Pablo
Escabar, you would see the US had to kill a lot of
innocent people to take him down. You can't fight
a war half-way. That is what we did in Vietnam, and
lost a lot of young Americans for no good reason.

In wars, civilians die. All this being said, if I were
Israel I would have fought this war against
Hezbollah differently. I would have won without
killing many people, and without losing many lives.

(in reply to CrappyDom)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/14/2006 12:57:02 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

This is interesting and shows how under threat and fighting for their lives Israel were. It appears that the US had no intention of being a honest peace broker.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1844021,00.html

I wouldn't believe anything Seymour Hirsh writes. He is anti-Israel, anti-Bush, and anti-US.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/14/2006 1:28:21 AM

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He has a record of being right a few times though so he has credibility. No doubt he will be dished as a self hating Jew, which is the normal treatment of any Jew that questions zionism.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/14/2006 3:50:24 AM

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"If I am not mistaken this whole thing started when Hezbollah crossed over into
Israel, killed 8 Israeli soldiers and kidnapped one soldier."

......i think you're mistaken. It is entirely possible to go back over events in the last year and progressively poke fingers of blame.....first at one side and then at the other. Blame is rarely a useful tool to resolve such situations, although that does not mean that individuals on both sides should not be accountable for their actions. How many Palestinians were...and still are.....being held in Israeli jails without trial? How many men, women and children? Were these people being held before an Israeli soldier was kidnapped? Do you remember what the kidnappers demanded of Israel for his safe return?
We can make no meaningful contribution to the situation unless we accept that both sides have got points and that both sides have committed atrocities.......and both sides will need to finally be held to account for that.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/14/2006 5:38:54 AM

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My only comment is to repeat my comment in another thread about what a friend who was a member of Spentsnaz (Russian Special Forces), told me over excelent vodka. The Spentsnaz had the mind set when operating against an enemy “Kill one of ours and we destroy a village of yours.” Not hard to see how things escalate af pass from one generation to the next.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 8/14/2006 5:40:51 AM >

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/14/2006 3:14:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

If I am not mistaken this whole thing started when Hezbollah crossed over into Israel, killed 8 Israeli soldiers and kidnapped one soldier.

That's a pretty selective timeline to say it's where it all began

quote:

What would you do, if terrorists killed many member of your family, and starting shooting rockets at you.

The same thing I'd do if I lived in Southern Lebanon and Israel killed many members of my family and started shooting rockets at me - fight back. Wouldn't you?

quote:

If I am not mistaken over 50 Israelis have died from these
rocket attacks, and 500 Israelis have been seriously injured.

How many Lebanese?

quote:

The question arises do Israelis have the right to live without having to fear some rocket will kill them or their wife or their children.

Yes they do. What they don't have the right to do is kill hundreds of women and children in return

quote:

What would you do to protect your wife and your children?

You seem to only believe that Israel is the one being attacked. It might be educational to watch news reports and see whether it's Israeli women and children or Lebanese women and children that have been attacked and killed recently.

quote:

What would you do, if some group of terrorists living peacefully in another country were launching rockets at your wife and children? The fact is most Lebenese support Hezbollah.

The fact is more do now than did 4 months ago, that's for sure.

quote:

If a country allows terrorists to operate from their land, the civilians of that country bear responsiblity for what the terrorists operating on their land do.

No they really do not. You can't kill a group of women and children under the premise "Well you shouldn't have allowed terrorist groups to operate around you"

quote:

If I had terrorists operating out of my house and from my back yard,
I would understand if the people these terrorists were tryiing to kill,
dropped a bomb on my head.

Would you equally understand that they dropped bombs on people in your neighbouring town, regardless of whether they were bombing you or not?

quote:

There are 1,000 times more Arabs and Muslims than there are
Israelis. There would not be an Israeli left if in a war of attrition
Israel killed just one Arab and Muslim for each Israeli killed.

The US fire-bombed Tokyo and other major Japanese cities.
We nuked Hirshima and Nagasaki.

If you ever saw the documenry on the killing of Pablo
Escabar, you would see the US had to kill a lot of
innocent people to take him down. You can't fight
a war half-way. That is what we did in Vietnam, and
lost a lot of young Americans for no good reason.

In wars, civilians die.

In terrorism, civilians die too. Two wrongs don't make a right.

_____________________________

"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/14/2006 3:26:45 PM

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Well, here's a slightly broader timeline.... or at least a different perspective.

quote:

...Jews under the Ottoman Turks in the 15th and 16th centuries were welcomed for their advanced knowledge of spinning, weaving and dying of textiles. Their knowledge of European languages enabled Muslims to employ them as diplomats. Modern Islam merely blames them for everything they imagine going wrong....

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/SuzanneFields/2006/08/14/anti-semitism_for_dummies

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/14/2006 3:53:38 PM

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

If I am not mistaken this whole thing started when Hezbollah crossed over into Israel, killed 8 Israeli soldiers and kidnapped one soldier.

That's a pretty selective timeline to say it's where it all began

It is the correct timeline for this particulat conflict, although this has been brewing for many years. It is similar to the commencement of the six day war.

quote:

quote:

The question arises do Israelis have the right to live without having to fear some rocket will kill them or their wife or their children.

Yes they do. What they don't have the right to do is kill hundreds of women and children in return

If your statement that Israel does not have the right to kill civilians in retaliatory strikes, kindly state that it is your personal opinion (even though it may be shared by many) You do not have the right to tell Israel or anyone else for that matter what rights they may or may not have unless it affects you personally.

quote:

quote:

If a country allows terrorists to operate from their land, the civilians of that country bear responsiblity for what the terrorists operating on their land do.

No they really do not. You can't kill a group of women and children under the premise "Well you shouldn't have allowed terrorist groups to operate around you"

Wrong! If terrorists set up camp next door in a neutral country and started bombing me and that country did zilch in acting against the terrorists then they (the neutral country) have made a decloration of support of the terrorists by their lack of action and thus are as guilty as the terror organization.. They would deserve all they get.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/14/2006 4:12:05 PM

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The one thing you have wrong Ironbear is that Hezzbollah is a indigenous Lebanese resistance movement that was born out of the last Israeli invasion of Lebanon. They were defending their homeland.

If you think the timeline is correct for this conflict, let's understand why they abducted the Israeli soldiers. It was to negotiate the return of their prisoners illegally held by Israel.

I think in this conflict however, Israel has shot it self in the foot and deserves it. I doubt Israel thought it would still be fighting Hezzbollah four weeks after they had started the conflict with an outrageous over reaction. Which appears to have been planned with the help of the US administration with its ill conceived war on terror.

Israel would be better served listening to wiser council than what now sits in the Whitehouse. Any objective observer can see that Hezzbollah has come out of this conflict stronger with a much higher moral, they have also shown that the American provided war machine is not invincible.

As SunTzu said in 500BC "Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. Thus the highest form of generalship is to baulk the enemy's plans;

the next best is to pre-empt the junction of the enmy's forces;
the next in order is to attqck the enemy's army in the field;
the worst ploicy of all is to beseige walled cities."

By modern standards, Israel made the worst choice this time.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/14/2006 4:14:05 PM >

(in reply to IronBear)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/14/2006 4:23:58 PM

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http://camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1148

(in reply to meatcleaver)

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