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ORIGINAL: pollux

What do you do when the terrorists have blended in with the civilian population, or are using civilian infrastructure for support?  What do you do when your miltary makes a mistake?  What do you do when you have to make a judgement call, or your technology breaks down?  Are any of those situations forgiveable during wartime?

Wars against terrorists have to be fought over the long term. Separating the host population from the terrorists by winning hearts and minds while gathering intelligence and making hits on the terrorists. Britain learnt the hard way that hitting back at any target that resembles a terrorist is counter productive and increases the numbers and the resolve of the terrorists over the long term. Britain has success in a guerilla war in Malaya by winning hearts and minds while pursuing terrorist targets. Northern Ireland was another war that was pursued in a similar way. Not all the population want the Brits there and never will but most of the terrorism has been fought to a stand still.

Do you believe that the Israeli military is being told to deliberately fire on civilian targets that are known to be innocent or otherwise not involved in any kind of Hezbollah activity?  If you answer yes, I'm curious what you think the purpose of this is -- how it is in Israel's interest to do this.

I don't believe Israel is ordering its military to hit civilian targets but I do believe they are guilty of being criminally negligent.

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The consensus on various news channels here (various countries) is that Israel is openly firing on civilian targets. Even the BBC which isn't known for hyperbole said it is inconceivable that the residential homes the Israeli airforce is pulverizing can possibly be military targets. In one report it said that the Israeli airforce appears to attack vehicles that move and the hospital is busy with wounded women and children from such attacks. Jan Egeland the UN Undersecretary General for Humanitarian Affairs (I know Americans hate the UN) toured southern Bierut and said what is being done is criminal, excessive and out of all proportion.

Sorry if I'm not stirred to outrage by the famously neutral and fair-minded BBC and UN.

Actually their reporting is reflected by all the reporting from other countries and CNN Europe is not contradicting any other news channel.

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Oh And as for terrorism. We had American funded Irish terrorism in London and NI for years.

The US government funded terrorism in Northern Ireland?  That's news to me.

I didn't say the US government funded terrorism but the US government turned a blind eye to fund raising for Irish terrorism by its citizens. Reagan said he couldn't do anything about it and US courts have stopped several extraditions of terrorists saying their acts were political. Funny how that changed after 9/11

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Did we go round killing innocent civilians?

Good question.  Next time I'm in Northern Ireland, I'll be sure and ask around about that.

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ORIGINAL: KenDckey
I have a hard time believing that only 19 Israelis have been killed since pre1948 at the hands of Heztbola or however you spell it.

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ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile
What a stupid argument. 

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ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile
Actually, Temyn8or, many of the Jewish areas of modern day Israel were already legally purchased property by the Jewish National Fund.  It did not belong to the Palestinians, as a matter of fact, in 1948 there were no people called Palestinians, it was an adjective attributed to anyone who lived in the region.  And the territory was mandated to Britain, which then returned it to the UN. 

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ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile
Ah yes!  The Crusades!  The Crusades!  Every Muslim today keeps reminding us Westerners that we should feel guilty that 900 years ago, our "forefathers" invaded the Middle East. 

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ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile
the Muslim world, is anti-Semitic  

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
It is not about scoring points, its about the perception of some people's one dimensional view of Islam that they see as justification for all sorts of ill thought out policies.

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ORIGINAL: pollux

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ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

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ORIGINAL: pollux
I think when a state is confronted with a grave existential threat

Such as that felt by the Palestinians ?

Well, that's pretty hard to support given the events leading up to, and since, Oslo.  Israel withdrew completely from south Lebanon, and Gaza, and demolished all its settlements there, and was in the process of doing the same in the West Bank.  Israel turned over chunks of disputed territory to the PA for administration.  I'm having trouble squaring all of that up with a grave existential threat.

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-- as Hezbollah is to Israel -- any talk of "proportional response" is ridiculous.  Wars are not stopped by proportional response.  Wars are perpetuated by proportional response. That's not to say that it's alright to randomly destroy anything you want, but once you decide to go to war, it's best to be decisive and defeat the enemy with massive, disproportionate force rather than screw around and allow the misery to be prolonged.

This war did not start with the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers.  We've been over that ground repeatedly.  Hezbollah has been harassing Israel for years, under the guise of "resistance" to Israeli occupation of south Lebanon (their real agenda, of course, is the eventual destruction of the state of Israel).  Israel withdrew all of its forces from south Lebanon in 2000 -- SIX YEARS AGO.  The reason they were there?  To stop shelling of northern Israel by Hezbollah.  Hezbollah's response to that was to move back into the formerly occupied territory and, instead of living peacefully with their southern neighbor, to resume firing Katyusha rockets into civilian neighborhoods in northern Israel. All the while integrating themselves into the civilian population, and using civilian locations for weapons storage and firing positions.

As far as I'm concerned Israel can and should wipe them out using whatever means necessary. 

"them" being anybody unfortunate to live in the vacinity of your Master Plan, presumably

Well, you can get petty and put words in my mouth if you want, but I think it's pretty clear that by "them", I was referring to Hezbollah.

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They have had chance after chance to live alongside Israel, and they have chosen to reject that option. 

That's because like a lot of Jews, they probably believe Israel doesn't have a right to exist in the first place and considering the Jewish religion states the same thing until God leads Jews back there and not because Zionists say so, they might have a point.

Nice to know where you stand on that issue.  Thank you for sharing your opinion with us.

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ORIGINAL: Estring
Does anyone remember what happened the last time Jews were threatened with extinction? They did not resist, as most of them felt that Hitler could never be that evil. And look what happened. Israel needs to do everything in it's power to make sure that doesn't happen again.

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ORIGINAL: RPutnamJr

I do not believe in proportional responses. I also do not believe in smart bombs. War should be as ugly as it can be, with total distruction so that people will think twice about going to war.

When Hezbollah captured the Israeli soldiers in Israel, certain segments of Lebanonese society cheered. Now that Israel has struck back and struck back hard, where is the cheering? Now they say poor me, I'm a civilian, a victum.

Evil can only exist when good people stand by and do nothing about it. Those segments that cheered and support Hezbollah should think twice about what they are cheering for. Hezbollah brought Israels wrath down on them and is the cause of their suffering. They supported Hezbollah either directly or morally, thus they got what they wanted.

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that yes is also a resistance organization depending on your point of view. No matter how you look at Hezbollah's actions, they chose to fight from Lebanon. If Lebanon does not want to be dragged into the war then Lebanon should do something about securing their boarders and disarming Hezbollah.

Now I know that the Lebanonese army is too weak to do the job. And they also do not want to restart a civil war within Lebanon. Since nobody wants to do anything about Hezbollah and disarm them, then the people get what they want. Hezbollah could be disarmed if the total population of Lebanon wanted Hezbollah removed as a military power within Lebanon.

The part of the population that is being struck and punished is the same part of the population that supports Hezbollah and cheered their actions. So do I cry for them and say poor poor civilians when they are killed? NO...that is the horror of war and why wars should be ugly and as ugly as can be. Yes I'm sorry children are killed, that though is why war is ugly, innocents get killed. Wars should be avoided at all costs.

Hezbollah started the current low scale war and the people cheered...now they are not cheering yet do not want peace either...all they have to do is remove Hezbollah and return the two soldiers. Thus it is up to the supporters of Hezbollah to decide when they have had enough of Hezbollah's actions or when the Lebanonese army wants to put Hezbollah back in its place and reassert its duty to assert control over all of Lebanon.

Personally Israel is doing a justified response in the fact that nobody except them can do the job to bring peace around. They are mostly only attacking the areas that Hezbollah is in control, thus limiting civilian casualties to the true civilians. If you support Hezbollah then you are not a civilian in my opinion, you are a potential enemy combatant. Yes all infrastructure is being attacked but that is the same infrastructure that Hezbollah uses. Thus its a legitamit target in my opinion.

Proportional response...bullshit...this is war and wars are ugly...enough said.

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ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

It always amazes me when people bring up the Holocaust while talking about Israel.  
Many Jews are opposed to Israel.  Many Jews do not believe Israel should exist, at least not until ordained by God.

It's important to make the distinction between Jews and Zionists.  Hitler used quotes from Zionists to help persecute Jews in Germany.  So did Goebbels.

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ORIGINAL: irishbynature

Yes Level....he's new but he's on the up and up and a great person!!!

Very well, then, irish, he shall get the benefit of the doubt