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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 10:18:17 AM   
EnglishDomNW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW


quote:


Do you ever wonder what other countries would like us to be?

 
Wonder no more.  The answer is "quiet".


Really ?

Hmmm, that seems not to be the case when there is a national disaster and a country needs aid. Actually, there is criticism then becasue we haven't given " enough" or we haven't given " more" than country X. Or when we were silent on Rwanda.  Plenty of criticism there, then and now.
< for the record, I was one of the ones criticizing > Or when we don't take a public stand on something another country thinks we should take a stand on.

Simple example: AIDS and Africa... seems the world doesn't want us quiet on that one. Or maybe they do, quiet while reaching deep in our pockets to appease what other nations have determined is our " fair share" to give out.

So, I think the accurate statement is silent when other nations want us to be silent. Exactly the same illogic we use when judging other countries.

         mbmbn


The "quiet" remark was a joke dig at caitlyn, not America as a whole, but since you pointed it out...

Someone must tells Americans that you clothe, feed and heal the rest of the world

I wonder why they don't tell you that so does practically every other decent country on the planet.

See link

http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/economic_aid_donor_2006_0.html

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 7/23/2006 10:28:59 AM >


_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 10:47:47 AM   
maybemaybenot


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Please refer to my last sentence where I say we do the same thing.
Thanx for the link. It tells me nothing I didn't already know, so obviously " they " did tell me.


mbmbn

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 10:55:21 AM   
pollux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

However, people aren't calling for the destruction of Israel


Nobody is calling for the destruction of Israel except Hezbollah.  And Hamas.  And Iran.  And Syria.  And all their sympathizers.

quote:

but for it to stop its over the top reaction and stop terrorising and targeting civilians while claiming to be targeting terrorists.


The terrorists are integrated into the civilian population, and they use civilian infrastructure.  They don't drive around in army trucks wearing uniforms.  They don't get gas from military depots -- they get it from gas stations.  They don't set up a base for their missile launchers -- they hide them inside people's basements.  That's why they're such a damn problem.   And they want exactly the reaction you are giving them -- they want the Israelis to have to kill innocent people while coming after them and they are absolutely dependent on the self-righteours, morally superior "international community" to stand up and demand that Israel stop this "disproportionate" response.


Israel has two soldiers kidnapped, Israel is a victim.
Israel brings a country to its knees in return, Israel is not acting disproportionately.

Well since Israel did some kidnapping of its own, if Iran nuked it tomorrow you'd presumably see that as a "proportionate response", yes?


You're assuming I subscribe to notions of proportionate response in warfare.  I don't.  What would've been proprotional -- kidnapping two Hezbollah fighters?  Kidnapping three?  Where does that get you?

In any case, I'd view an Iranian nuclear attack as absolutely consistent with Iran's view toward the existence of Israel.  Absolutely.  That doesn't mean I condone it -- I mean it would be a consistent response given what Iran's leaders have publically said about Israel in the past. 

I think when a state is confronted with a grave existential threat -- as Hezbollah is to Israel -- any talk of "proportional response" is ridiculous.  Wars are not stopped by proportional response.  Wars are perpetuated by proportional response. That's not to say that it's alright to randomly destroy anything you want, but once you decide to go to war, it's best to be decisive and defeat the enemy with massive, disproportionate force rather than screw around and allow the misery to be prolonged.

This war did not start with the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers.  We've been over that ground repeatedly.  Hezbollah has been harassing Israel for years, under the guise of "resistance" to Israeli occupation of south Lebanon (their real agenda, of course, is the eventual destruction of the state of Israel).  Israel withdrew all of its forces from south Lebanon in 2000 -- SIX YEARS AGO.  The reason they were there?  To stop shelling of northern Israel by Hezbollah.  Hezbollah's response to that was to move back into the formerly occupied territory and, instead of living peacefully with their southern neighbor, to resume firing Katyusha rockets into civilian neighborhoods in northern Israel. All the while integrating themselves into the civilian population, and using civilian locations for weapons storage and firing positions.

As far as I'm concerned Israel can and should wipe them out using whatever means necessary.  They have had chance after chance to live alongside Israel, and they have chosen to reject that option.  Hezbollah made that choice (and some in Lebanon made that choice, along with Syria and Iran) and they will have to live with the consequences.  A return to the status quo -- which is what would happen in any sort of "proportional response" scenario -- is not acceptable, IMO.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 11:07:14 AM   
meatcleaver


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The problem you have when you say you don't adhere to proportional response in warfare, you open a whole can of worms. If human life doesn't matter, then surely it is not a great leap to say the holocaust doesn't matter.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 11:19:01 AM   
pollux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The problem you have when you say you don't adhere to proportional response in warfare, you open a whole can of worms. If human life doesn't matter, then surely it is not a great leap to say the holocaust doesn't matter.


That isn't what I'm saying at all.

Disproportionate response isn't an idea that says human life doesn't matter -- it's saying just the opposite.  It's saying that the only thing worse than a war is a long war, or an indecisive one.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 11:31:11 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The problem you have when you say you don't adhere to proportional response in warfare, you open a whole can of worms. If human life doesn't matter, then surely it is not a great leap to say the holocaust doesn't matter.


That isn't what I'm saying at all.

Disproportionate response isn't an idea that says human life doesn't matter -- it's saying just the opposite.  It's saying that the only thing worse than a war is a long war, or an indecisive one.



What you are saying is that you want rules of war on your terms and not an independent objective view on how wars should be fought. The side that you support has an overwhelming military strength, therefore disproportianate war is fine. What if the side you support had a vastly inferior force than its enemy who was not only happy to kill fighters but the civilian population too?

There is really little choice in this. You either believe in independent objective rules that can be judged by a third party that is objective or you have the rules of the jungle. Please inform me if there is realistically another option.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/23/2006 11:40:18 AM >

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 12:01:34 PM   
Rule


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No, Israel does not have the right.
 
This conflict will stop immediately when the fifty richest Americans are forced to pay for all the damages and to compensate for the loss of life on both sides.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 12:01:48 PM   
pollux


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quote:

What you are saying is that you want rules of war on your terms and not an independent objective view on how wars should be fought. The side that you support has an overwhelming military strength, therefore disproportianate war is fine.


I'm saying you are attempting to apply standards of warfare that were designed to apply to two states that are militarily on more or less equal footing.  That's not true here -- as you say, Israel has a military that is much stronger.  You seem to think that a strong military implies some kind of strategic advantage.  As we're seeing in Iraq and now in Lebanon, I think that's an open question.  You don't need F-16s to get your way.  The fact is, terrorism and insurgent tactics are effective, and I think it is very much an open question whether Israel's military advantage will translate into a victory against Hezbollah.  Part of that is the issue I brought up earlier -- which is that well-meaning people like you tend to enable terrorism by refusing to hold them accountable for their actions and restrict your criticisms for only that side that owns the tanks and the planes.  This fuels international "outrage" among the morally self-righteous, and if you don't think Hezbollah considers that reaction part of its strategy, you're fooling yourself.

quote:

What if the side you support had a vastly inferior force than its enemy who was not only happy to kill fighters but the civilian population too?


That's easy -- that's exactly how I feel about Tibet with respect to the Chinese.  And guess what?  I'm not an advocate of a Tibetan campaign of terrorism against Chinese civilians.  I think that would be morally wrong, despite the fact that the Chinese takeover of Tibet was an abomination, and at least the moral equal of (if not far worse than) the injustice suffered by the Palestinians.  Sadly, I think the Tibetans now have few options short of what they're doing -- making lives in exile, preserving what they can of their culture, and inspiring sympathy and aid through their ethical actions.

quote:

There is really little choice in this. You either believe in independent objective rules that can be judged by a third party that is objective or you have the rules of the jungle. Please inform me if there is another realistically another option.


I think you are presenting a false dichotomy because it's very difficult to defend Hezbollah in this case.  Not even the regional Arab governments (except for Syria and Iran) have spoken up in their defense.  Even the Lebanese government is apparently giving their own backchannel tacit approval for Israel to destroy Hezbollah, because neither the Lebanese army, nor the UN, seem to be up to the task.

What you have in the case of Hezbollah vs. Israel is not an example of the type of conflict that the laws of warfare were designed to address.  Things like the Geneva Conventions, etc. do not account for situations where you have a guerilla or insurgent force who hides among and within civilian populations, uses civilians as human shields, and who deliberately and callously targets civilians with the goal of maximizing civilian casualties, etc.  Oh wait.  They do.  They say all of that is against the laws of warfare, but no one seems to ever bring that up in relation to Hezbollah.   It seems that we apply those standards only to Israel.


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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 12:09:07 PM   
meatcleaver


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I have never defended Hezzbollah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What I defend is the right of innocent civilians to life.

Approximately 350 Lebanese civilians killed and approx 40 Hezzbollah, the last time I checked the stats. That suggests criminal negligence on behalf of the Israeli army or an intent to kill civilians.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 12:18:41 PM   
EnglishDomNW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux
I think when a state is confronted with a grave existential threat

Such as that felt by the Palestinians ?
quote:


-- as Hezbollah is to Israel -- any talk of "proportional response" is ridiculous.  Wars are not stopped by proportional response.  Wars are perpetuated by proportional response. That's not to say that it's alright to randomly destroy anything you want, but once you decide to go to war, it's best to be decisive and defeat the enemy with massive, disproportionate force rather than screw around and allow the misery to be prolonged.

This war did not start with the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers.  We've been over that ground repeatedly.  Hezbollah has been harassing Israel for years, under the guise of "resistance" to Israeli occupation of south Lebanon (their real agenda, of course, is the eventual destruction of the state of Israel).  Israel withdrew all of its forces from south Lebanon in 2000 -- SIX YEARS AGO.  The reason they were there?  To stop shelling of northern Israel by Hezbollah.  Hezbollah's response to that was to move back into the formerly occupied territory and, instead of living peacefully with their southern neighbor, to resume firing Katyusha rockets into civilian neighborhoods in northern Israel. All the while integrating themselves into the civilian population, and using civilian locations for weapons storage and firing positions.

As far as I'm concerned Israel can and should wipe them out using whatever means necessary. 

"them" being anybody unfortunate to live in the vacinity of your Master Plan, presumably
quote:



They have had chance after chance to live alongside Israel, and they have chosen to reject that option. 

That's because like a lot of Jews, they probably believe Israel doesn't have a right to exist in the first place and considering the Jewish religion states the same thing until God leads Jews back there and not because Zionists say so, they might have a point.


_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 12:37:58 PM   
pollux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux
I think when a state is confronted with a grave existential threat

Such as that felt by the Palestinians ?


Well, that's pretty hard to support given the events leading up to, and since, Oslo.  Israel withdrew completely from south Lebanon, and Gaza, and demolished all its settlements there, and was in the process of doing the same in the West Bank.  Israel turned over chunks of disputed territory to the PA for administration.  I'm having trouble squaring all of that up with a grave existential threat.

quote:

quote:


-- as Hezbollah is to Israel -- any talk of "proportional response" is ridiculous.  Wars are not stopped by proportional response.  Wars are perpetuated by proportional response. That's not to say that it's alright to randomly destroy anything you want, but once you decide to go to war, it's best to be decisive and defeat the enemy with massive, disproportionate force rather than screw around and allow the misery to be prolonged.

This war did not start with the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers.  We've been over that ground repeatedly.  Hezbollah has been harassing Israel for years, under the guise of "resistance" to Israeli occupation of south Lebanon (their real agenda, of course, is the eventual destruction of the state of Israel).  Israel withdrew all of its forces from south Lebanon in 2000 -- SIX YEARS AGO.  The reason they were there?  To stop shelling of northern Israel by Hezbollah.  Hezbollah's response to that was to move back into the formerly occupied territory and, instead of living peacefully with their southern neighbor, to resume firing Katyusha rockets into civilian neighborhoods in northern Israel. All the while integrating themselves into the civilian population, and using civilian locations for weapons storage and firing positions.

As far as I'm concerned Israel can and should wipe them out using whatever means necessary. 

"them" being anybody unfortunate to live in the vacinity of your Master Plan, presumably


Well, you can get petty and put words in my mouth if you want, but I think it's pretty clear that by "them", I was referring to Hezbollah.

quote:

quote:



They have had chance after chance to live alongside Israel, and they have chosen to reject that option. 

That's because like a lot of Jews, they probably believe Israel doesn't have a right to exist in the first place and considering the Jewish religion states the same thing until God leads Jews back there and not because Zionists say so, they might have a point.



Nice to know where you stand on that issue.  Thank you for sharing your opinion with us.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 12:42:40 PM   
pollux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I have never defended Hezzbollah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Coulda fooled me.

quote:

What I defend is the right of innocent civilians to life.


That must make you feel very good about yourself.  Congratulations on passing your 8th grade morality test.

quote:

Approximately 350 Lebanese civilians killed and approx 40 Hezzbollah, the last time I checked the stats. That suggests criminal negligence on behalf of the Israeli army or an intent to kill civilians.


Well, considering there are reports that even the BBC is admitting it is awfully hard to distinguish "Hezbollah" from "civilian" (given that Hezbollah basically hides among the civilian population), I think that response is hysterical given what we know -- for certain -- about what is happening over there.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 12:44:22 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The problem you have when you say you don't adhere to proportional response in warfare, you open a whole can of worms. If human life doesn't matter, then surely it is not a great leap to say the holocaust doesn't matter.


What are you saying, when you cherry pick atrocities by one side, and repeatedly refuse to even admit that the holocaust is part of the overall cycle of violence?

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 1:04:57 PM   
Webmeister


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Armed conflict generally stems from attempts by one group to dominate another group in the name of power, religion, money, or expansionism, (pick one or all of them), as well as the attempts by the other group defending against such attacks, or a revolution to establish a groups identity and sovereignty.

On November 29, 1947, the U.N. General Assembly by a two-thirds vote (33 to 13 with Britain and nine others abstaining) passed Resolution 181 partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jewish community of Palestine jubilantly accepted partition despite the small size and strategic vulnerability of the proposed state. Not only were Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip not included, but also Jerusalem, most of the Galilee in the North and parts of the Negev desert in the South were excluded. The Arab national movement in Palestine, as well as all the Arab states, angrily rejected partition. They demanded the entire country for themselves and threatened to resist partition by force. Had they accepted the U.N. proposal in 1947, the independent Palestinian Arab state, covering an area much larger than the West Bank and Gaza, would have been created along with Israel. Instead, they launched a war to destroy the nascent Jewish state.  (Taken from http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_mandate_end.php)

I do not know who belongs in the specified region or who has rightful ownership, but the Israeli’s have it and they are determined to keep it, just as we citizens of the United States would certainly defend our borders if threatened.  The United States forged an alliance with Israel and has always exercised a policy to support them. Israel represents an opportunity to maintain a presence in the Middle East region and influence regional stability.  The United States can fall back on U.N. Resolution 181and claim they are merely attempting to support Israel in upholding said agreement.  The Arab world has always rejected U.N. Resolution 181.  Israel does not always conform to the desires of the United States and they probably shouldn’t.  The physical size of Israel is relatively tiny and they are surrounded by belligerent Arab nations of questionable political stability and leadership.  I have been there.  Their sovereign airspace is so limited that their military pilots must train directly overhead their home bases in order to remain within their borders.
Armed conflict has taken on a different form in recent years.  It is no longer the massing of armies in the traditional sense by one sovereign nation in an attempt to influence another.  Generally, an organized faction of people without a formal country’s economy and means to raise an army, seek funding from entities that desire to exercise influence and use terrorist means to attack whomever they please behind the false cover of religion.  The “rules” of war have changed.  Fighting a conflict under those circumstances is difficult at best.
Stability in the Middle East, as in any area of the world, is certainly something we should be concerned about.  All out world war could easily result without the proper handling of this sensitive situation.  The United States, whether we like it or not, is the world’s tempering force.  We are supposed to be the “good guys” that keep the peace when no one else can.  We will always be criticized by other less capable nations for our actions.  There is always a tinge of jealousy involved due to the inability of other nations to wield such power and influence.
On a final note, whether governments want to admit it or not, the presence oil in the Middle East is definitely a major Influence on the world economy.  The lifestyle we all enjoy in the United States and other developed countries are dependent on oil.  Just look at the flux in oil prices on a daily basis due to media reports from the Middle East, when oil reserves are actually at reasonable levels.  Imagine the chaos if the price of gasoline in Atlanta were five dollars a gallon.  The fact that the margin of oil reserves in the world is decreasing until we discover new sources in areas of the world that are less volatile than the Middle East is motivation for protecting what oil there is for now and in the future.  When the United States Government puts forth the possibility of drilling in Alaska and the environmentalists don’t want to eradicate the birds in the area, someone is going to have to decide what’s more important.  The world needs to accelerate the research for finding ways to create alternate means of energy or we, as a people, will have to change our lives forever.  Personally, the next automobile I purchase will be a high mileage car like the Toyota Prius that gets 60 miles per gallon.


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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 1:07:55 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I have never defended Hezzbollah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Coulda fooled me.

quote:

What I defend is the right of innocent civilians to life.


That must make you feel very good about yourself.  Congratulations on passing your 8th grade morality test.

quote:

Approximately 350 Lebanese civilians killed and approx 40 Hezzbollah, the last time I checked the stats. That suggests criminal negligence on behalf of the Israeli army or an intent to kill civilians.


Well, considering there are reports that even the BBC is admitting it is awfully hard to distinguish "Hezbollah" from "civilian" (given that Hezbollah basically hides among the civilian population), I think that response is hysterical given what we know -- for certain -- about what is happening over there.



Well I'm not aware of children and women having been accused of firing rockets and they make 2/3+ of the dead.

Oh Don't give me that old excuse of hiding amongst civilians. Israel has been carrying out extra-judicial executions with air to groundf missiles for years that have killed more civilians than militants/terrorists/freedom fighters. Why should we expect them to be more careful in amilitary offensive?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/23/2006 1:09:49 PM >

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 2:12:56 PM   
pollux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Well I'm not aware of children and women having been accused of firing rockets and they make 2/3+ of the dead.

Oh Don't give me that old excuse of hiding amongst civilians.


EXCUSE?  That's a fact.

quote:

Israel has been carrying out extra-judicial executions with air to groundf missiles for years that have killed more civilians than militants/terrorists/freedom fighters. Why should we expect them to be more careful in amilitary offensive?


What euphemism do you use for the technique of walking into a pizza parlor full of families with a vest loaded with C4, and full of nails and ball bearings,  and then offing yourself?   And then sending bomber #2 onto the scene after the rescue workers arrive?

I think your moral outrage over Israeli attempts to kill terrorist leaders would carry more weight if you could scrape up a little outrage for the monsters who kill on behalf of the Palestinians.



< Message edited by pollux -- 7/23/2006 2:18:22 PM >

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 2:29:46 PM   
meatcleaver


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I'm against terrorism whoever does it and if Hezzbollah get slaughtered they've got it coming to them but terrorist attacks on innocent civilians doesn't give the right for an army to kill other innocent civilians which the Israelis are doing. It gives them the right to pursue and kill the terrorists carrying out the attacks.

The consensus on various news channels here (various countries) is that Israel is openly firing on civilian targets. Even the BBC which isn't known for hyperbole said it is inconceivable that the residential homes the Israeli airforce is pulverizing can possibly be military targets. In one report it said that the Israeli airforce appears to attack vehicles that move and the hospital is busy with wounded women and children from such attacks. Jan Egeland the UN Undersecretary General for Humanitarian Affairs (I know Americans hate the UN) toured southern Bierut and said what is being done is criminal, excessive and out of all proportion.

Oh And as for terrorism. We had American funded Irish terrorism in London and NI for years. Did we go round killing innocent civilians?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/23/2006 2:32:43 PM >

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 2:44:52 PM   
irishbynature


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Excellent article Webmeister!

As You and i  have discussed, the conflict has been not only about Israel defending it's borders (which any nation does), but also the taking of homes, land, and lives of innocent persons for Israel to have their settlements. Even if they bulldoze humans, they will take that land. These persons who lost their homes, family members, etc.. become misplaced---and hence, anger and rage result. (Perhaps the birth of a Terrorist?) Then, it gets so convoluted and twisted after that, anyone who says, "Yo, Israel needs to chill" and both sides need to work this out ((((somehow)))) you get called "anti-semetic" when in actually, you are an anti-zionist. (like many Rabbis and Jewish ppl living in the region).

Yes, there were resolutions and not everyone followed them.

I do think you are completely reality based on your assessment of our dependence on Mideast Oil.

Webmeister:
"The world needs to accelerate the research for finding ways to create alternate means of energy or we, as a people, will have to change our lives forever.  Personally, the next automobile I purchase will be a high mileage car like the Toyota Prius that gets 60 miles per gallon."

We do need to find alternative sources for energy. We do complain about the conflicts in the Mideast, and the price of gas as well but we haven't really taken a stand on riding ourselves of our dependence of oil in that region. Taking the steps to purchase a new car is a positive move toward this issue.

Correct me if I've misquoted you (and I know you will... *grins*).
Respectfully,
Irishbynature
WSSP




_____________________________


What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller


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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 2:55:41 PM   
pollux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I'm against terrorism whoever does it and if Hezzbollah get slaughtered they've got it coming to them


That's the spirit!

quote:

but terrorist attacks on innocent civilians doesn't give the right for an army to kill other innocent civilians which the Israelis are doing. It gives them the right to pursue and kill the terrorists carrying out the attacks.


Oops, lost it there.  You have a valid point, as far as it goes, but underlying it is an assumption/expectation that warfare can be perfect.  What do you do when the terrorists have blended in with the civilian population, or are using civilian infrastructure for support?  What do you do when your miltary makes a mistake?  What do you do when you have to make a judgement call, or your technology breaks down?  Are any of those situations forgiveable during wartime?

I'd like to ask a serious question of you.

Do you believe that the Israeli military is being told to deliberately fire on civilian targets that are known to be innocent or otherwise not involved in any kind of Hezbollah activity?  If you answer yes, I'm curious what you think the purpose of this is -- how it is in Israel's interest to do this.

quote:

The consensus on various news channels here (various countries) is that Israel is openly firing on civilian targets. Even the BBC which isn't known for hyperbole said it is inconceivable that the residential homes the Israeli airforce is pulverizing can possibly be military targets. In one report it said that the Israeli airforce appears to attack vehicles that move and the hospital is busy with wounded women and children from such attacks. Jan Egeland the UN Undersecretary General for Humanitarian Affairs (I know Americans hate the UN) toured southern Bierut and said what is being done is criminal, excessive and out of all proportion.


Sorry if I'm not stirred to outrage by the famously neutral and fair-minded BBC and UN.

quote:

Oh And as for terrorism. We had American funded Irish terrorism in London and NI for years.


The US government funded terrorism in Northern Ireland?  That's news to me.

quote:

Did we go round killing innocent civilians?


Good question.  Next time I'm in Northern Ireland, I'll be sure and ask around about that.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 2:56:01 PM   
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Joined: 3/3/2006
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Wow, webmeister sure learned how to post and add links awfully quick. And an extensive profile to boot.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to irishbynature)
Profile   Post #: 120
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