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How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/12/2016 6:12:28 AM   
EasyE


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Joined: 12/18/2005
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Last night I had a very special first meeting with a potential slave. She is LOCAL, close enough in age, physically attractive to me, most importantly wants the same things out of life as me (both in the M/s relationship and vanilla aspects).

She is younger than me but ready for a serious relationship, something that is important to me. From our conversations she has expressed a need for protocols and rules. She also has shown a need for them in some of the choices she makes in her life when left to her own devices.

My questions is how do you all start up a new relationship? This will be Master/slave dynamic, so eventually I will take her body under my control as a whole, guiding her mind and decisions to become a better person. At the same time, I'm not conceded enough to expect her to bow at my feet naked, ready to be used within the first week. I have told her she will be treated more as an equal for the first week or so and gradually as trust is built transition to the full M/s dynamic.

My initial thoughts are to ramp up critical rules that effect her safety, gradually build on protocols to satisfy the feeling of being owned and subservient, then lastly moving to the physical parts. I want her to trust me, at least on some level, before I take her body. I want it to be special, too many of my past D/s or M/s relationships have been too quick to sex and didn't build a solid foundation first. I am looking to avoid that mistake.

Also with protocols and rules, infraction is to be expected. Especially when new. How can punishment be done early in a relationship. I'm thinking of trust and keeping things non-sexual.


I've done a search here and online. I didn't see relevant answers to my questions. Please feel free to drop links of relevant answers to questions already been asked. Thanks!!
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RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/12/2016 7:41:25 AM   
Greatlilbabygirl


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The fact you want to take things gradually is pretty refreshing.

(in reply to EasyE)
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RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/12/2016 10:23:06 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EasyE

My initial thoughts are to ramp up critical rules that effect her safety, gradually build on protocols to satisfy the feeling of being owned and subservient, then lastly moving to the physical parts. I want her to trust me, at least on some level, before I take her body. I want it to be special, too many of my past D/s or M/s relationships have been too quick to sex and didn't build a solid foundation first. I am looking to avoid that mistake.



I've tried that, and I find it doesn't work for me.

The relationships I engage in are TPE style, where the slave give up total power, does not get to negotiate the relationship, and their choice is to obey or leave the relationship. Entering into such a relationship by gradually ramping up the rules doesn't work for me I find, because it causes a lot of confusion in the beginning between the whole "everything" is under the D-type's control, and "there aren't rules yet for the majority of things".

So now what I end up doing when meeting somebody new is date them, and give them tastes of kinky play, and what slavery would be like, in a negotiated, time limited setting. In the style of: If you're coming over here today/this weekend, and I want to do xyz with you, are you up for that? Xyz could be anything from play, to housework, to going to a movie with me, and anything in between.

However, all the while, any interaction we have is totally under my control, and while with me I expect total obedience from the start. I just give them plenty of opportunity to immediately remove themselves from the situation if they don't want to continue, and I am very open and transparent about what exactly we'll be doing, so that they can decide whether they even want to come or not. At this stage I don't punish disobedience, though I explain in every instance where a punishment would occur that it would happen here, what for, and how I'd likely punish them if we were in a full blown TPE. I don't negotiate at all (in the sense of not making concessions at all) but I will explain what my plans are, what I'll likely do, what I'm interested in doing, etc. They are also allowed, and encouraged to ask me any question they want, and I will answer them to the best of my ability.

I do that for as long as it takes them to become comfortable and wish to fully enter into the relationship instead of just casually dating me and it. At that point, to signify that they're ready, they beg a collar. If I deem them ready for it, and I'm interested in them as well, they get collared, and from the moment I expect total obedience in all things, reserve the right to punish if I'm not pleased (or do anything else I want for any reason I want, really), I will no longer necessarily answer all questions involving my motivations or reasons, and the only formal way they have to end the relationship is to remove their collar. With the collar still on, we have explicit negotiated consent for everything (though I will check this and make them verbally reaffirm this consent from time to time in situations that are difficult for them).

So I really do go from zero to full blown from the first day, it's just that my expectations are far lower, and I'm far more permissible, than I am once consent is fully given and the collar is on.
I've tried the slow ramp on thing a couple of times, and I always ended up in situations where there was a huge gap between where the s-type thought we were headed, and where I knew we were headed... kinda like they ended up expecting that whatever low level of rules we started out at would be the norm forever, and once it became clear that that wasn't going to happen (or wasn't the goal at least), they freaked out.

Because of that I much prefer my style of: I'm not going to date you outside of the context of what our relationship would be, but I will make various temporary concessions on transparency about my immediate plans so you'll feel more comfortable. You can sample this relationship, and me, as long as you like, but as soon as you beg that collar it's on completely from day one, and I'm not going to 'ease' you into things.
Other styles work better for other people.




< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 11/12/2016 10:28:56 AM >


_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to EasyE)
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RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/12/2016 10:38:48 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EasyE



This will be Master/slave dynamic, so eventually I will take her body under my control as a whole, guiding her mind and decisions to become a better person.


Start by losing that idea. You're not qualified. You're not omnipotent, you're human, you make mistakes and you can't make someone else a better person. Only she can do that. You can be a sounding board, you can be the voice of reason, but you're not infallible. Accept that.

Personally, I don't think that punishment dynamics work well in a long term relationship. Some people thrive in it, but the majority don't. It builds a resentment and fear that can eat a relationship. I think it's better to find the "why" and work on it rather than focusing on the "what".

At this point, you don't really know how she reacts, how she deals, how she functions. Start with little things, small protocols. Don't overwhelm her. Let her tell you, when she wants more. (For us, one of the very first things was not being allowed to open my own doors. I can't tell you how hard that was for me)

And lastly: be realistic about what you want. If you want someone that has to ask you to use the bathroom, then expect to be asked 10 times a day and to be available for that question....at any time of the day. Think about the long term effects of the rules you put in place.

Just remember that this works differently for everyone. This isn't a cookie cutter thing. You're going to make mistakes (both of you) and how you deal with them will play a big part in whether the relationship survives or not. After awhile, you start figuring it out how it works for you and it will be different from works for us.

Good Luck!


_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to EasyE)
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RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/12/2016 11:03:38 AM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
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Is she interested in rituals and protocols? Is she looking for punishment?

Because lots of us don't do either. I don't want punishment. I want help solving the problem. I want a learning curve. I expect him to understand how people learn and that nobody will letter perfect on day one. And sometimes not for months.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to OsideGirl)
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RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/12/2016 12:16:31 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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I think OsideGirl's post illustrates beautifully how different things work for different people. And what's absolutely and totally true for one person, doesn't work at all for another.

Because:

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


Start by losing that idea. You're not qualified. You're not omnipotent, you're human, you make mistakes and you can't make someone else a better person. Only she can do that. You can be a sounding board, you can be the voice of reason, but you're not infallible. Accept that.



I totally disagree with that.

My goal taking a slave is always to make them a better person. I have goals laid out from the beginning for that.
I work on their mind, as well as their body, in order to accomplish that.

With my current slave, I've changed several destructive habits she had, made her work on her health more, taught her to have more patience, am teaching her to control her emotions better, got her to stop interacting with people in a passive aggressive manipulative way, taught her several skills she didn't have before, and made her far more attractive than she was than when we met.

That's not a comprehensive list, but just the things off the top of my head.

Now some people might argue that I didn't do any of that, because I just gave her commands on what to change, and how to change, and then she did all the work, but I'm going to call bullshit on that kind of argument, because without me, she wouldn't have made this progress in any of these areas, nor would she not have made as much progress overall this year.

In fact, one of the things she keeps bringing up is that she cannot believe how much she's changed for the better, in such a short time, and how she would have never been able to do that without becoming my slave.


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Personally, I don't think that punishment dynamics work well in a long term relationship. Some people thrive in it, but the majority don't. It builds a resentment and fear that can eat a relationship. I think it's better to find the "why" and work on it rather than focusing on the "what".



I totally disagree with that as well.

Punishment dynamics do not build resentment, what builds resentment is being unfair, inconsistent or confusing punishment with 'funishment'.
Punishment dynamics do not build fear, what builds fear is the Top not being in control over their anger, punishments that are disproportional to the offense, unpredictability when it comes to linking the punishment to the crime, or when there are punishments given for things the slave couldn't have helped/changed/done better.

Failure to be perfect shouldn't necessitate a punishment. Failure to succeed because of a lack of effort should.

I further have no idea why this is, but for some reason people who are anti punishment dynamics always seem to assume that when you don't have a punishment dynamic you deal with issues by talking about the 'why', but when you do have a punishment dynamic you just punish, and never talk about the 'why'.
That's nonsense of course, a good punishment dynamic always includes discussions to figure out what exactly went wrong, why it did, and how to fix it.

It just also includes the fact that if the slave messed up in a situation where they could have done better but didn't, because they were lazy, hurrying, forgot, didn't think you'd notice, etc, there are consequences for their lack of effort.
Personally I don't punish for anything but a lack of effort, regardless of what caused the lack of effort, and I believe that if you train well, situations where you have imperfect obedience due to a lack of effort become less and less frequent fast.

Usually in the beginning you have a quite a few though, because the slave will still subconsciously be relating to you like they would to the average other people in her life, in which relationships lack of perfection in effort is expected to be tolerated, and people are supposed to be permissible when somebody forgets something, for instance. In a slave, I don't tolerate such behavior, and I find a punishment dynamic is the fastest and easiest way to teach it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

At this point, you don't really know how she reacts, how she deals, how she functions. Start with little things, small protocols. Don't overwhelm her. Let her tell you, when she wants more.



If you go that route, it's my experience that you'll end up in a low protocol situation, where most of the serving that's done for you is the serving that comes naturally from the submissive, and not because it's specifically directed by you. You'll end up in a situation with a fairly limited rule set (probably less than a 100 rules overall).
All of which is fine, if that's what you want as an end result (and most people seem to want this).

If you're interested in micromanaging every aspect of your slave's life, starting with little things, and small protocols will not build you up to that, because it will end up having her relate to you in a completely different way than is needed for a micromanaging relationship.

Again, one isn't better than the other... but it's a great illustration in the difference of approaches.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

If you want someone that has to ask you to use the bathroom, then expect to be asked 10 times a day and to be available for that question....at any time of the day. Think about the long term effects of the rules you put in place.



Unless you set the rules in such a way that they're not supposed to ask you any time of the day, but only when you're available, or are only allowed to ask 8 times a day.

I agree with the 'be realistic though' you cannot order somebody to only pee once a day. It's impossible and unhealthy.

You can, however, set fairly strict rules in place even governing such functions.

My slave, when we met her, had trained herself to believe she could not fall asleep with even the tiniest bit of urine in her bladder. Thus, any time she was send to bed, she'd be up 2-3 times to go to the bathroom to pee before falling asleep. Any night where she had trouble sleeping, she might be up 5-6 times. In addition any time she would wake up at night, no matter how briefly, she would get up to go pee.
Resulting in her getting up an average of 8 times between getting to bed, and waking up in the morning.

Doing this was seriously impeding on her sleep (together with a bunch of other issues she had regarding her sleep habits) and so she was chronically sleep deprived.

After getting her medically checked, to make sure there was no reason for her having the urge to pee when her bladder was mostly void, I started setting restrictions on her being allowed to pee at night. She also got restrictions on her water intake after certain hours, and during the night.
We now have her down to being allowed to pee once during the night.

In the beginning, this caused a lot of stress for her, more sleeplessness, more trouble getting back to sleep after waking up, because she was convinced that she couldn't possible go to sleep without engaging in her ritualistic bladder voiding for a few drops at a time.
There was also some disobedience where she got up anyways and tried to hide it, again, because she was convinced that she couldn't possible do what was required of her. And being faced with the situation where she had strict expectations that she could not deviate from, as well as her -incorrect- believe that she couldn't meet the expectations she fell back to attempting to 'cheat'.

She got punished for the attempt to cheat, and trained in techniques to aid her to go to sleep faster, sleep more soundly, as well as having other habits changed (no more coffee after X time, consistent bed time, actually dark room, better mattress, no electronics in bed, etc) to address her difficulty going to sleep in the first place.

The cheating got solved by punishment, because it enforced on her the fact that the consequences of disobeying would be worse than the consequences of "not being able to meet expectations", which she believed would result in her not being able to go to sleep at all, which she worried about more than displeasing me at the time. That worry of not being able to sleep at all got proven wrong to her when she ended up being more concerned about being punished, than she was about 'not being able to sleep' and as soon as that happened, and she actually stayed in bed, it was quickly proven to her that she could go to sleep while not voiding her bladder every 30 minutes.

Now that all is said and done, she admits that she sleeps a lot better, sleeps longer, is more rested, does better at work as a result of not being so tired, and her blood pressure has gone down as a result of no longer drinking tons of coffee to make up for her sleep deprivation.

Getting there wasn't easy, but it required:
- me firmly believing I could make her better than she was before
- a firm and extensive rule set from the start (changing this one habit took 6 months and a rule set encompassing about 30 different items... if I had 'taken it slow' we'd still be nowhere on it)
- a punishment dynamic to enforce the fact that I wasn't going to let her get away with anything but actual obedience, no matter how impossible she thought the command that was given was

But again, your millage may vary, and other people do things in very different ways.

Everything I've said above wouldn't work on OsideGirl at all (I hope you don't mind me hijacking your post to illustrate the differences OG).
Likewise, everything she's said wouldn't work for my relationships at all.


< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 11/12/2016 1:12:34 PM >


_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to OsideGirl)
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RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/12/2016 12:33:43 PM   
WickedsDesire


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Have your bitch call me…she will like me, all gen-women like me trust me.

my point being op has no bint at all

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)
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RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/12/2016 3:24:57 PM   
kiwisub22


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OP - my dominant gave me his rules right off the get-go. I'm not sure I could have done the whole ramping up thing. I like things set in concrete because I don't do well with things changing - it can feel like a punishment to me, and I dislike punishment intensely.

And as for punishment? If I have the rules, and I break one of them, then I expect a punishment. The thing is, is that I am an intelligent woman, so I didn't need punishing for well over a year after moving in with him.
Funishment, on the other hand, we went into probably the first time I came to his house. And we didn't do anything overtly sexual for a while, but for me, the whole thing was sexual.

I think you have to have thought through what you want and expect from her. You need to know what you think a master/slave relationship is , and how it is going to go. Do you want her naked all the time? Do you want her naked when she is around others in the lifestyle? Do you want her to do all the housework, all the grocery shopping, serve you tea on a sterling silver tray, whilst kneeling on a cushion? Does she need to ask you to go to the toilet, with the door open?
How are you going to ask about how she thinks the relationship is going, how is she going to let you know if something isn't working for her?

Basically, you have all the issues of a vanilla relationship , with more responsibility on your part.

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RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/12/2016 5:05:25 PM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
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And you start with friendship. With actually liking and respecting each other.
Are you compatible? Or are you going to dislike everything the other values?

I needed him to have the same political views. If he had started ordering me to vote for someone I find reprehensible, then the relationship would have ended before it began.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to kiwisub22)
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RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/12/2016 7:54:42 PM   
EasyE


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Thank you so much for all the replies. I've had a busy day and will read them and respond in am.

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RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/13/2016 3:49:28 AM   
EasyE


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Joined: 12/18/2005
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quote:

I do that for as long as it takes them to become comfortable and wish to fully enter into the relationship instead of just casually dating me and it. At that point, to signify that they're ready, they beg a collar. If I deem them ready for it, and I'm interested in them as well, they get collared, and from the moment I expect total obedience in all things, reserve the right to punish if I'm not pleased (or do anything else I want for any reason I want, really), I will no longer necessarily answer all questions involving my motivations or reasons, and the only formal way they have to end the relationship is to remove their collar. With the collar still on, we have explicit negotiated consent for everything (though I will check this and make them verbally reaffirm this consent from time to time in situations that are difficult for them).


Thank you very much. I especially like how you have the slave beg for the collar when she's ready. That's the perfect way to transition. If she does that you know she's feeling the trust and is ready.

(in reply to EasyE)
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RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/13/2016 5:38:52 AM   
DesFIP


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Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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But Ishtar, the punishment didn't solve the problem. She didn't train herself to believe that she couldn't sleep with a bladder contains urine.
She actually couldn't. Because caffeine irritates the bladder, causing people to need to urinate more frequently. Caffeine doesn't stop you from sleeping, it prevents deep sleep and causes frequent awakenings including the bladder irritation.

Had you skipped the punishment and simply restricted caffeine usage after 4:00 PM, the problem would have been resolved. You were punishing her for something she was not doing purposely nor had any control over. It's a well known side effect of the most widely used psychotropic drug, coffee.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to EasyE)
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RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/13/2016 6:14:16 AM   
EasyE


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: EasyE



This will be Master/slave dynamic, so eventually I will take her body under my control as a whole, guiding her mind and decisions to become a better person.


Start by losing that idea. You're not qualified. You're not omnipotent, you're human, you make mistakes and you can't make someone else a better person. Only she can do that. You can be a sounding board, you can be the voice of reason, but you're not infallible. Accept that.



I agree with everything you said except this. I'm not omnipotent, perfect, or without some selfishness. That's why I said guide NOT make. Give protocols, rules, and directives that guide her to become a better slave, person, and professional. Help her in every facet of her life to become better. Also realizing sometimes it will be better for her to make mistakes and learn her own way.

I really liked what you said about waiting for her to ask for more. I gave her two easy ones and a third more challenging one (because she still experiments with drugs) to follow for now. I will have her ask me for more when she's ready. Plus the gradual thing is beneficial for my memory as well, haha

(in reply to OsideGirl)
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RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/13/2016 9:36:47 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

But Ishtar, the punishment didn't solve the problem. She didn't train herself to believe that she couldn't sleep with a bladder contains urine.
She actually couldn't. Because caffeine irritates the bladder, causing people to need to urinate more frequently. Caffeine doesn't stop you from sleeping, it prevents deep sleep and causes frequent awakenings including the bladder irritation.

Had you skipped the punishment and simply restricted caffeine usage after 4:00 PM, the problem would have been resolved. You were punishing her for something she was not doing purposely nor had any control over. It's a well known side effect of the most widely used psychotropic drug, coffee.


Nope, her caffeine use was restricted to 4 cups a day, with the last one no later than 3 pm immediately. Later her water intake was restricted after 7 pm (lights out at 8:30). 2 months later, she was getting up no less frequently to pee than she had, before, the only thing that had changed was the volume at which she needed to pee. We were now literally talking about drops, instead of flow.

At that point I had a doctor clear her, and unequivocally told she was not allowed to get up more than twice a night, a week later I dropped it to once a night, and caught her sneaking around, at which point I punished her for disobeying.
Following that she had about a week of crying hysterically in bed saying over and over again "but I can't sleep like this!".
She also tried to get out of bed to come plead with me (for which she was punished as well).

During that week she took melamine at bed time, and the duration of her keeping herself up got shorter and shorter, and by the end of it she was back to sleeping as normal, and is now most nights (any night that's routine) sleeping through the night.

If I didn't have punishment in my tool bag, I'd still have her get up every night at the moment, to either try to sneak behind my back or try to come argue with me that I must let her use the bathroom, because she couldn't possible.
Punishment is the tool that finally got it trough her head that if it came down to peeing in bed (which she of course never did) or facing my wrath, peeing in bed would have been her more pleasant option... which is the thing that finally got her to stay in bed when there wasn't anything besides her own head preventing her from doing so.

Like I said: punishment dynamics don't work by just saying "you obey, or me punish you!".
You still have to talk. You still have to find solutions for problems. You still have to address issues. You still have to guide and teach.
But in addition to that it gives you the option to put your foot down hard any time there's a disagreement between the Owner and the slave about what the slave can or cannot do.
Which is BTW the thing punishment gets used around here for in 99% of cases: to concur her fears, and change her own wrong perceptions about herself and her capabilities by forcing the issue.

It's very nice to have a tool with which you can say: "I know you're scared, I know you think you can't do this, I know you have doubts... and that's okay, I'm going to prove you wrong by making you succeed anyways, and you're going to do it because failing to obey me is going to be much much worse for you than whatever it is you worry about would be".

Our punishment dynamic has resulted in me having a slave who told me a few weeks ago: "Anytime you tell me to do something I don't think I can do, I remind myself that you never tell me to do anything I can't do." which is a point we wouldn't be at without punishments, because there's a number of key things I got her to do which I could not have gotten her to do without severely pressuring her. If it wasn't for a punishment dynamic, I would now have a slave who was convinced that I constantly told her to do things she couldn't, because I'd tell her to do things which I knew she could do, but she was convinced she couldn't and so would never actually succeed in without a push.
Trying to talk her trough them (which I tried) results in endless conversations going around in circles and going nowhere. Putting my foot down and telling her "It'll be worse if you don't" is what motivates her to break through her fears and worries.
A punishment dynamic is the tool I've used to build trust for me in her, to the point that she trusts my opinion about what she can and can't do now above her own.





< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 11/13/2016 9:50:44 AM >


_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/13/2016 9:58:43 AM   
Alecta


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quote:

"I know you're scared, I know you think you can't do this, I know you have doubts... and that's okay, I'm going to prove you wrong by making you succeed anyways, and you're going to do it because failing to obey me is going to be much much worse for you than whatever it is you worry about would be".


I've been struggling to express exactly this about what punishment should be, thank you.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)
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RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/13/2016 10:46:01 AM   
WickedsDesire


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Joined: 11/4/2015
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Whilst I am not everyone cup of tea sockcretin I am not particularity prone to hallucinations and fictions...have you consider a complete lobotomy danger

leads me on to danger 5 :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zaHLhj8jjA

(in reply to Alecta)
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RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/13/2016 2:20:29 PM   
ThundersCry2U


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First of all...enjoy your journey with her...

Why let her be your *equal* for a week or so?

Take her right away...your dealing with a SLAVE, not a submissive.

I, would listen to what UllrsIshtar is communicating to you.

Oh...and you`ll make plenty of mistakes as she will. Forgive each other when that happens and move forward.

(in reply to EasyE)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/13/2016 3:57:51 PM   
EasyE


Posts: 111
Joined: 12/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

Have your bitch call me…she will like me, all gen-women like me trust me.

my point being op has no bint at all


I hope all 2000+ posts haven't been so useless. If so more power to ya, you have much more free time than me.

(in reply to WickedsDesire)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/13/2016 5:06:04 PM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EasyE


quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

Have your bitch call me…she will like me, all gen-women like me trust me.

my point being op has no bint at all


I hope all 2000+ posts haven't been so useless. If so more power to ya, you have much more free time than me.


Yeah... no they all have been... I don't think anybody who's been here for longer than a week still bothers reading them.
There's a hide button on the bottom left of each post if it makes it more enjoyable for you to ignore people that way.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to EasyE)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: How to start a M/s relationship; protocols, rules, sex - 11/13/2016 6:28:40 PM   
EasyE


Posts: 111
Joined: 12/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

I think OsideGirl's post illustrates beautifully how different things work for different people. And what's absolutely and totally true for one person, doesn't work at all for another.

Because:

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


Start by losing that idea. You're not qualified. You're not omnipotent, you're human, you make mistakes and you can't make someone else a better person. Only she can do that. You can be a sounding board, you can be the voice of reason, but you're not infallible. Accept that.



I totally disagree with that.

My goal taking a slave is always to make them a better person. I have goals laid out from the beginning for that.
I work on their mind, as well as their body, in order to accomplish that.

With my current slave, I've changed several destructive habits she had, made her work on her health more, taught her to have more patience, am teaching her to control her emotions better, got her to stop interacting with people in a passive aggressive manipulative way, taught her several skills she didn't have before, and made her far more attractive than she was than when we met.

That's not a comprehensive list, but just the things off the top of my head.

Now some people might argue that I didn't do any of that, because I just gave her commands on what to change, and how to change, and then she did all the work, but I'm going to call bullshit on that kind of argument, because without me, she wouldn't have made this progress in any of these areas, nor would she not have made as much progress overall this year.

In fact, one of the things she keeps bringing up is that she cannot believe how much she's changed for the better, in such a short time, and how she would have never been able to do that without becoming my slave.


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Personally, I don't think that punishment dynamics work well in a long term relationship. Some people thrive in it, but the majority don't. It builds a resentment and fear that can eat a relationship. I think it's better to find the "why" and work on it rather than focusing on the "what".



I totally disagree with that as well.

Punishment dynamics do not build resentment, what builds resentment is being unfair, inconsistent or confusing punishment with 'funishment'.
Punishment dynamics do not build fear, what builds fear is the Top not being in control over their anger, punishments that are disproportional to the offense, unpredictability when it comes to linking the punishment to the crime, or when there are punishments given for things the slave couldn't have helped/changed/done better.

Failure to be perfect shouldn't necessitate a punishment. Failure to succeed because of a lack of effort should.

I further have no idea why this is, but for some reason people who are anti punishment dynamics always seem to assume that when you don't have a punishment dynamic you deal with issues by talking about the 'why', but when you do have a punishment dynamic you just punish, and never talk about the 'why'.
That's nonsense of course, a good punishment dynamic always includes discussions to figure out what exactly went wrong, why it did, and how to fix it.

It just also includes the fact that if the slave messed up in a situation where they could have done better but didn't, because they were lazy, hurrying, forgot, didn't think you'd notice, etc, there are consequences for their lack of effort.
Personally I don't punish for anything but a lack of effort, regardless of what caused the lack of effort, and I believe that if you train well, situations where you have imperfect obedience due to a lack of effort become less and less frequent fast.

Usually in the beginning you have a quite a few though, because the slave will still subconsciously be relating to you like they would to the average other people in her life, in which relationships lack of perfection in effort is expected to be tolerated, and people are supposed to be permissible when somebody forgets something, for instance. In a slave, I don't tolerate such behavior, and I find a punishment dynamic is the fastest and easiest way to teach it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

At this point, you don't really know how she reacts, how she deals, how she functions. Start with little things, small protocols. Don't overwhelm her. Let her tell you, when she wants more.



If you go that route, it's my experience that you'll end up in a low protocol situation, where most of the serving that's done for you is the serving that comes naturally from the submissive, and not because it's specifically directed by you. You'll end up in a situation with a fairly limited rule set (probably less than a 100 rules overall).
All of which is fine, if that's what you want as an end result (and most people seem to want this).

If you're interested in micromanaging every aspect of your slave's life, starting with little things, and small protocols will not build you up to that, because it will end up having her relate to you in a completely different way than is needed for a micromanaging relationship.

Again, one isn't better than the other... but it's a great illustration in the difference of approaches.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

If you want someone that has to ask you to use the bathroom, then expect to be asked 10 times a day and to be available for that question....at any time of the day. Think about the long term effects of the rules you put in place.



Unless you set the rules in such a way that they're not supposed to ask you any time of the day, but only when you're available, or are only allowed to ask 8 times a day.

I agree with the 'be realistic though' you cannot order somebody to only pee once a day. It's impossible and unhealthy.

You can, however, set fairly strict rules in place even governing such functions.

My slave, when we met her, had trained herself to believe she could not fall asleep with even the tiniest bit of urine in her bladder. Thus, any time she was send to bed, she'd be up 2-3 times to go to the bathroom to pee before falling asleep. Any night where she had trouble sleeping, she might be up 5-6 times. In addition any time she would wake up at night, no matter how briefly, she would get up to go pee.
Resulting in her getting up an average of 8 times between getting to bed, and waking up in the morning.

Doing this was seriously impeding on her sleep (together with a bunch of other issues she had regarding her sleep habits) and so she was chronically sleep deprived.

After getting her medically checked, to make sure there was no reason for her having the urge to pee when her bladder was mostly void, I started setting restrictions on her being allowed to pee at night. She also got restrictions on her water intake after certain hours, and during the night.
We now have her down to being allowed to pee once during the night.

In the beginning, this caused a lot of stress for her, more sleeplessness, more trouble getting back to sleep after waking up, because she was convinced that she couldn't possible go to sleep without engaging in her ritualistic bladder voiding for a few drops at a time.
There was also some disobedience where she got up anyways and tried to hide it, again, because she was convinced that she couldn't possible do what was required of her. And being faced with the situation where she had strict expectations that she could not deviate from, as well as her -incorrect- believe that she couldn't meet the expectations she fell back to attempting to 'cheat'.

She got punished for the attempt to cheat, and trained in techniques to aid her to go to sleep faster, sleep more soundly, as well as having other habits changed (no more coffee after X time, consistent bed time, actually dark room, better mattress, no electronics in bed, etc) to address her difficulty going to sleep in the first place.

The cheating got solved by punishment, because it enforced on her the fact that the consequences of disobeying would be worse than the consequences of "not being able to meet expectations", which she believed would result in her not being able to go to sleep at all, which she worried about more than displeasing me at the time. That worry of not being able to sleep at all got proven wrong to her when she ended up being more concerned about being punished, than she was about 'not being able to sleep' and as soon as that happened, and she actually stayed in bed, it was quickly proven to her that she could go to sleep while not voiding her bladder every 30 minutes.

Now that all is said and done, she admits that she sleeps a lot better, sleeps longer, is more rested, does better at work as a result of not being so tired, and her blood pressure has gone down as a result of no longer drinking tons of coffee to make up for her sleep deprivation.

Getting there wasn't easy, but it required:
- me firmly believing I could make her better than she was before
- a firm and extensive rule set from the start (changing this one habit took 6 months and a rule set encompassing about 30 different items... if I had 'taken it slow' we'd still be nowhere on it)
- a punishment dynamic to enforce the fact that I wasn't going to let her get away with anything but actual obedience, no matter how impossible she thought the command that was given was

But again, your millage may vary, and other people do things in very different ways.

Everything I've said above wouldn't work on OsideGirl at all (I hope you don't mind me hijacking your post to illustrate the differences OG).
Likewise, everything she's said wouldn't work for my relationships at all.



Thank you. I will be taking a few pages out of your book. She admitted to some very destructive habits (recreational drug use) and the need for strict dominant in the first meeting (manipulative and will top from the bottom if allowed).

I appreciate your understanding that she needs help, guidance, and enforcement. The changes will come from within her but she needs me to point her in the direction and steady the course.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)
Profile   Post #: 20
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