EasyE
Posts: 111
Joined: 12/18/2005 Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar I think OsideGirl's post illustrates beautifully how different things work for different people. And what's absolutely and totally true for one person, doesn't work at all for another. Because: quote:
ORIGINAL: OsideGirl Start by losing that idea. You're not qualified. You're not omnipotent, you're human, you make mistakes and you can't make someone else a better person. Only she can do that. You can be a sounding board, you can be the voice of reason, but you're not infallible. Accept that. I totally disagree with that. My goal taking a slave is always to make them a better person. I have goals laid out from the beginning for that. I work on their mind, as well as their body, in order to accomplish that. With my current slave, I've changed several destructive habits she had, made her work on her health more, taught her to have more patience, am teaching her to control her emotions better, got her to stop interacting with people in a passive aggressive manipulative way, taught her several skills she didn't have before, and made her far more attractive than she was than when we met. That's not a comprehensive list, but just the things off the top of my head. Now some people might argue that I didn't do any of that, because I just gave her commands on what to change, and how to change, and then she did all the work, but I'm going to call bullshit on that kind of argument, because without me, she wouldn't have made this progress in any of these areas, nor would she not have made as much progress overall this year. In fact, one of the things she keeps bringing up is that she cannot believe how much she's changed for the better, in such a short time, and how she would have never been able to do that without becoming my slave. quote:
ORIGINAL: OsideGirl Personally, I don't think that punishment dynamics work well in a long term relationship. Some people thrive in it, but the majority don't. It builds a resentment and fear that can eat a relationship. I think it's better to find the "why" and work on it rather than focusing on the "what". I totally disagree with that as well. Punishment dynamics do not build resentment, what builds resentment is being unfair, inconsistent or confusing punishment with 'funishment'. Punishment dynamics do not build fear, what builds fear is the Top not being in control over their anger, punishments that are disproportional to the offense, unpredictability when it comes to linking the punishment to the crime, or when there are punishments given for things the slave couldn't have helped/changed/done better. Failure to be perfect shouldn't necessitate a punishment. Failure to succeed because of a lack of effort should. I further have no idea why this is, but for some reason people who are anti punishment dynamics always seem to assume that when you don't have a punishment dynamic you deal with issues by talking about the 'why', but when you do have a punishment dynamic you just punish, and never talk about the 'why'. That's nonsense of course, a good punishment dynamic always includes discussions to figure out what exactly went wrong, why it did, and how to fix it. It just also includes the fact that if the slave messed up in a situation where they could have done better but didn't, because they were lazy, hurrying, forgot, didn't think you'd notice, etc, there are consequences for their lack of effort. Personally I don't punish for anything but a lack of effort, regardless of what caused the lack of effort, and I believe that if you train well, situations where you have imperfect obedience due to a lack of effort become less and less frequent fast. Usually in the beginning you have a quite a few though, because the slave will still subconsciously be relating to you like they would to the average other people in her life, in which relationships lack of perfection in effort is expected to be tolerated, and people are supposed to be permissible when somebody forgets something, for instance. In a slave, I don't tolerate such behavior, and I find a punishment dynamic is the fastest and easiest way to teach it. quote:
ORIGINAL: OsideGirl At this point, you don't really know how she reacts, how she deals, how she functions. Start with little things, small protocols. Don't overwhelm her. Let her tell you, when she wants more. If you go that route, it's my experience that you'll end up in a low protocol situation, where most of the serving that's done for you is the serving that comes naturally from the submissive, and not because it's specifically directed by you. You'll end up in a situation with a fairly limited rule set (probably less than a 100 rules overall). All of which is fine, if that's what you want as an end result (and most people seem to want this). If you're interested in micromanaging every aspect of your slave's life, starting with little things, and small protocols will not build you up to that, because it will end up having her relate to you in a completely different way than is needed for a micromanaging relationship. Again, one isn't better than the other... but it's a great illustration in the difference of approaches. quote:
ORIGINAL: OsideGirl If you want someone that has to ask you to use the bathroom, then expect to be asked 10 times a day and to be available for that question....at any time of the day. Think about the long term effects of the rules you put in place. Unless you set the rules in such a way that they're not supposed to ask you any time of the day, but only when you're available, or are only allowed to ask 8 times a day. I agree with the 'be realistic though' you cannot order somebody to only pee once a day. It's impossible and unhealthy. You can, however, set fairly strict rules in place even governing such functions. My slave, when we met her, had trained herself to believe she could not fall asleep with even the tiniest bit of urine in her bladder. Thus, any time she was send to bed, she'd be up 2-3 times to go to the bathroom to pee before falling asleep. Any night where she had trouble sleeping, she might be up 5-6 times. In addition any time she would wake up at night, no matter how briefly, she would get up to go pee. Resulting in her getting up an average of 8 times between getting to bed, and waking up in the morning. Doing this was seriously impeding on her sleep (together with a bunch of other issues she had regarding her sleep habits) and so she was chronically sleep deprived. After getting her medically checked, to make sure there was no reason for her having the urge to pee when her bladder was mostly void, I started setting restrictions on her being allowed to pee at night. She also got restrictions on her water intake after certain hours, and during the night. We now have her down to being allowed to pee once during the night. In the beginning, this caused a lot of stress for her, more sleeplessness, more trouble getting back to sleep after waking up, because she was convinced that she couldn't possible go to sleep without engaging in her ritualistic bladder voiding for a few drops at a time. There was also some disobedience where she got up anyways and tried to hide it, again, because she was convinced that she couldn't possible do what was required of her. And being faced with the situation where she had strict expectations that she could not deviate from, as well as her -incorrect- believe that she couldn't meet the expectations she fell back to attempting to 'cheat'. She got punished for the attempt to cheat, and trained in techniques to aid her to go to sleep faster, sleep more soundly, as well as having other habits changed (no more coffee after X time, consistent bed time, actually dark room, better mattress, no electronics in bed, etc) to address her difficulty going to sleep in the first place. The cheating got solved by punishment, because it enforced on her the fact that the consequences of disobeying would be worse than the consequences of "not being able to meet expectations", which she believed would result in her not being able to go to sleep at all, which she worried about more than displeasing me at the time. That worry of not being able to sleep at all got proven wrong to her when she ended up being more concerned about being punished, than she was about 'not being able to sleep' and as soon as that happened, and she actually stayed in bed, it was quickly proven to her that she could go to sleep while not voiding her bladder every 30 minutes. Now that all is said and done, she admits that she sleeps a lot better, sleeps longer, is more rested, does better at work as a result of not being so tired, and her blood pressure has gone down as a result of no longer drinking tons of coffee to make up for her sleep deprivation. Getting there wasn't easy, but it required: - me firmly believing I could make her better than she was before - a firm and extensive rule set from the start (changing this one habit took 6 months and a rule set encompassing about 30 different items... if I had 'taken it slow' we'd still be nowhere on it) - a punishment dynamic to enforce the fact that I wasn't going to let her get away with anything but actual obedience, no matter how impossible she thought the command that was given was But again, your millage may vary, and other people do things in very different ways. Everything I've said above wouldn't work on OsideGirl at all (I hope you don't mind me hijacking your post to illustrate the differences OG). Likewise, everything she's said wouldn't work for my relationships at all. Thank you. I will be taking a few pages out of your book. She admitted to some very destructive habits (recreational drug use) and the need for strict dominant in the first meeting (manipulative and will top from the bottom if allowed). I appreciate your understanding that she needs help, guidance, and enforcement. The changes will come from within her but she needs me to point her in the direction and steady the course.
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