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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 4:13:10 PM   
kiwisub22


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Never understood why it had to be one way or the other.


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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 4:19:11 PM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

have said this numerous times in my life, and here as well, and as long as this type of broad nonsense keeps appearing, i'll keep saying it:

on the whole, each side starts with basic assumptions--there is a god, there is not a god--and then its a question of the evidence supporting one side or the other.


You should stop saying this... it's completely wrong.
You can believe in God and accept the theory of evolution.

The problem arises when, like you, someone tries to pretend that your faith-based beliefs are equivalent to someone else's evidence-based conclusions.


Unless one has infinite evidence, it is no more beneficial to make conclusions from than faith. In fact, partial evidence is probably less beneficial since at least someone of faith acknowledges it is faith and doesn't assume they have all necessary information to make conclusions.


Conclusions about what?
There are scientific studies on the existence of God?

The reason creationism isn't taken seriously is because it's pseudo-science or cherry picked anti-evolution arguments.


It's really bad when your failure to read comprehensively extends to what you write.


Scientific conclusions aren't taken as immutable truths, you painfully ignorant fuck.
They can change if new evidence surfaces that disproves them.

The theory of evolution is the best explanation for the development of life according to what has been observed in nature.
The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven by anyone ever... it is not something that is falsifiable as God has no real identity or universal definition, and cannot be observed, verified or understood.
Those are the two things that I was talking about in my post... creationism attempts to equate faith-based beliefs with scientific conclusions.
As usual, I don't know what you are talking about... but eventually you'll probably start talking about little girls and their mommies again.

I'm blocking you now... both because you're a creep and because it's exhausting having to dumb shit down only to watch you get mad when you realize that the problem is you're slow.

(in reply to Nnanji)
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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 4:25:27 PM   
WickedsDesire


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And yet I, a mad olde loon with 3 cats and the ginger thieving bastard from two rows up, are still waiting on them all telling me the date of birth of splatgammon

Tetragrammaton

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 4:28:33 PM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

have said this numerous times in my life, and here as well, and as long as this type of broad nonsense keeps appearing, i'll keep saying it:

on the whole, each side starts with basic assumptions--there is a god, there is not a god--and then its a question of the evidence supporting one side or the other.


You should stop saying this... it's completely wrong.
You can believe in God and accept the theory of evolution.

The problem arises when, like you, someone tries to pretend that your faith-based beliefs are equivalent to someone else's evidence-based conclusions.


Unless one has infinite evidence, it is no more beneficial to make conclusions from than faith. In fact, partial evidence is probably less beneficial since at least someone of faith acknowledges it is faith and doesn't assume they have all necessary information to make conclusions.


Conclusions about what?
There are scientific studies on the existence of God?

The reason creationism isn't taken seriously is because it's pseudo-science or cherry picked anti-evolution arguments.


It's really bad when your failure to read comprehensively extends to what you write.


Scientific conclusions aren't taken as immutable truths, you painfully ignorant fuck.
They can change if new evidence surfaces that disproves them.

The theory of evolution is the best explanation for the development of life according to what has been observed in nature.
The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven by anyone ever... it is not something that is falsifiable as God has no real identity or universal definition, and cannot be observed, verified or understood.
Those are the two things that I was talking about in my post... creationism attempts to equate faith-based beliefs with scientific conclusions.
As usual, I don't know what you are talking about... but eventually you'll probably start talking about little girls and their mommies again.

I'm blocking you now... both because you're a creep and because it's exhausting having to dumb shit down only to watch you get mad when you realize that the problem is you're slow.

Two quick responses. 1) oh my god oh my god oh my god, he's going to block me! 2) yes as usual you don't know what I'm talking about even though I bolded it for you.

Oh sweetie, what a fuckwit. Mumsey will not be happy.

Oh the drama you create. That's what you really want isn't it?

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 4:40:45 PM   
WickedsDesire


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guffaws and wanders off

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 4:50:14 PM   
bounty44


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"The Scientific Case Against Evolution"

[heavily edited]

quote:

Belief in evolution is a remarkable phenomenon. It is a belief passionately defended by the scientific establishment, despite the lack of any observable scientific evidence for macroevolution (that is, evolution from one distinct kind of organism into another). This odd situation is briefly documented here by citing recent statements from leading evolutionists admitting their lack of proof. These statements inadvertently show that evolution on any significant scale does not occur at present, and never happened in the past, and could never happen at all.

Evolution Is Not Happening Now

First of all, the lack of a case for evolution is clear from the fact that no one has ever seen it happen. If it were a real process, evolution should still be occurring, and there should be many "transitional" forms that we could observe. What we see instead, of course, is an array of distinct "kinds" of plants and animals with many varieties within each kind, but with very clear and -- apparently -- unbridgeable gaps between the kinds. That is, for example, there are many varieties of dogs and many varieties of cats, but no "dats" or "cogs." Such variation is often called microevolution, and these minor horizontal (or downward) changes occur fairly often, but such changes are not true "vertical" evolution.

Evolutionary geneticists have often experimented on fruit flies and other rapidly reproducing species to induce mutational changes hoping they would lead to new and better species, but these have all failed to accomplish their goal. No truly new species has ever been produced, let alone a new "basic kind."

A current leading evolutionist, Jeffrey Schwartz, professor of anthropology at the University of Pittsburgh, has recently acknowledged that:

quote:

. it was and still is the case that, with the exception of Dobzhansky's claim about a new species of fruit fly, the formation of a new species, by any mechanism, has never been observed.

...

Evolution Never Happened in the Past

Evolutionists commonly answer the above criticism by claiming that evolution goes too slowly for us to see it happening today. They used to claim that the real evidence for evolution was in the fossil record of the past, but the fact is that the billions of known fossils do not include a single unequivocal transitional form with transitional structures in the process of evolving...

The entire history of evolution from the evolution of life from non-life to the evolution of vertebrates from invertebrates to the evolution of man from the ape is strikingly devoid of intermediates: the links are all missing in the fossil record, just as they are in the present world.

With respect to the origin of life, a leading researcher in this field, Leslie Orgel, after noting that neither proteins nor nucleic acids could have arisen without the other, concludes:

quote:

And so, at first glance, one might have to conclude that life could never, in fact, have originated by chemical means...The precise events giving rise to the RNA world remain unclear. . . . investigators have proposed many hypotheses, but evidence in favor of each of them is fragmentary at best.


The Equivocal Evidence from Genetics

Nevertheless, because of the lack of any direct evidence for evolution, evolutionists are increasingly turning to dubious circumstantial evidences, such as similarities in DNA or other biochemical components of organisms as their "proof" that evolution is a scientific fact. A number of evolutionists have even argued that DNA itself is evidence for evolution since it is common to all organisms. More often is the argument used that similar DNA structures in two different organisms proves common evolutionary ancestry.

Neither argument is valid. There is no reason whatever why the Creator could not or would not use the same type of genetic code based on DNA for all His created life forms. This is evidence for intelligent design and creation, not evolution.

The most frequently cited example of DNA commonality is the human/chimpanzee "similarity," noting that chimpanzees have more than 90% of their DNA the same as humans. This is hardly surprising, however, considering the many physiological resemblances between people and chimpanzees. Why shouldn't they have similar DNA structures in comparison, say, to the DNA differences between men and spiders?

Similarities -- whether of DNA, anatomy, embryonic development, or anything else -- are better explained in terms of creation by a common Designer than by evolutionary relationship. The great differences between organisms are of greater significance than the similarities, and evolutionism has no explanation for these if they all are assumed to have had the same ancestor. How could these great gaps between kinds ever arise at all, by any natural process?

The apparently small differences between human and chimpanzee DNA obviously produce very great differences in their respective anatomies, intelligence, etc. The superficial similarities between all apes and human beings are nothing compared to the differences in any practical or observable sense...

Evolution Could Never Happen at All

The main scientific reason why there is no evidence for evolution in either the present or the past (except in the creative imagination of evolutionary scientists) is because one of the most fundamental laws of nature precludes it. The law of increasing entropy -- also known as the second law of thermodynamics -- stipulates that all systems in the real world tend to go "downhill," as it were, toward disorganization and decreased complexity.

This law of entropy is, by any measure, one of the most universal, best proved laws of nature. It applies not only in physical and chemical systems, but also in biological and geological systems -- in fact, in all systems, without exception.

quote:

No exception to the second law of thermodynamics has ever been found -- not even a tiny one. Like conservation of energy (the "first law"), the existence of a law so precise and so independent of details of models must have a logical foundation that is independent of the fact that matter is composed of interacting particles


The author of this quote is referring primarily to physics, but he does point out that the second law is "independent of details of models." Besides, practically all evolutionary biologists are reductionists -- that is, they insist that there are no "vitalist" forces in living systems, and that all biological processes are explicable in terms of physics and chemistry. That being the case, biological processes also must operate in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics, and practically all biologists acknowledge this.

Evolutionists commonly insist, however, that evolution is a fact anyhow, and that the conflict is resolved by noting that the earth is an "open system," with the incoming energy from the sun able to sustain evolution throughout the geological ages in spite of the natural tendency of all systems to deteriorate toward disorganization. That is how an evolutionary entomologist has dismissed W. A. Dembski's impressive recent book, Intelligent Design. This scientist defends what he thinks is "natural processes' ability to increase complexity" by noting what he calls a "flaw" in "the arguments against evolution based on the second law of thermodynamics." And what is this flaw?

quote:

Although the overall amount of disorder in a closed system cannot decrease, local order within a larger system can increase even without the actions of an intelligent agent.


This naive response to the entropy law is typical of evolutionary dissimulation. While it is true that local order can increase in an open system if certain conditions are met, the fact is that evolution does not meet those conditions. Simply saying that the earth is open to the energy from the sun says nothing about how that raw solar heat is converted into increased complexity in any system, open or closed.

The fact is that the best known and most fundamental equation of thermodynamics says that the influx of heat into an open system will increase the entropy of that system, not decrease it. All known cases of decreased entropy (or increased organization) in open systems involve a guiding program of some sort and one or more energy conversion mechanisms.

Evolution has neither of these. Mutations are not "organizing" mechanisms, but disorganizing (in accord with the second law). They are commonly harmful, sometimes neutral, but never beneficial (at least as far as observed mutations are concerned). Natural selection cannot generate order, but can only "sieve out" the disorganizing mutations presented to it, thereby conserving the existing order, but never generating new order. In principle, it may be barely conceivable that evolution could occur in open systems, in spite of the tendency of all systems to disintegrate sooner or later. But no one yet has been able to show that it actually has the ability to overcome this universal tendency, and that is the basic reason why there is still no bona fide proof of evolution, past or present.

From the statements of evolutionists themselves, therefore, we have learned that there is no real scientific evidence for real evolution. The only observable evidence is that of very limited horizontal (or downward) changes within strict limits.

Evolution is Religion -- Not Science

In no way does the idea of particles-to-people evolution meet the long-accepted criteria of a scientific theory. There are no such evolutionary transitions that have ever been observed in the fossil record of the past; and the universal law of entropy seems to make it impossible on any significant scale.

Evolutionists claim that evolution is a scientific fact, but they almost always lose scientific debates with creationist scientists. Accordingly, most evolutionists now decline opportunities for scientific debates, preferring instead to make unilateral attacks on creationists.

quote:

Scientists should refuse formal debates because they do more harm than good, but scientists still need to counter the creationist message.


The question is, just why do they need to counter the creationist message? Why are they so adamantly committed to anti-creationism?

The fact is that evolutionists believe in evolution because they want to. It is their desire at all costs to explain the origin of everything without a Creator. Evolutionism is thus intrinsically an atheistic religion. Some may prefer to call it humanism, and "new age" evolutionists place it in the context of some form of pantheism, but they all amount to the same thing. Whether atheism or humanism (or even pantheism), the purpose is to eliminate a personal God from any active role in the origin of the universe and all its components, including man.

The core of the humanistic philosophy is naturalism -- the proposition that the natural world proceeds according to its own internal dynamics, without divine or supernatural control or guidance, and that we human beings are creations of that process. It is instructive to recall that the philosophers of the early humanistic movement debated as to which term more adequately described their position: humanism or naturalism. The two concepts are complementary and inseparable.21

Since both naturalism and humanism exclude God from science or any other active function in the creation or maintenance of life and the universe in general, it is very obvious that their position is nothing but atheism. And atheism, no less than theism, is a religion! Even doctrinaire-atheistic evolutionist Richard Dawkins admits that atheism cannot be proved to be true.

quote:

Of course we can't prove that there isn't a God.


Therefore, they must believe it, and that makes it a religion.

The atheistic nature of evolution is not only admitted, but insisted upon by most of the leaders of evolutionary thought. Ernst Mayr, for example, says that:

quote:

Darwinism rejects all supernatural phenomena and causations.


A professor in the Department of Biology at Kansas State University says:

quote:

Even if all the data point to an intelligent designer, such a hypothesis is excluded from science because it is not naturalistic.


It is well known by almost everyone in the scientific world today that such influential evolutionists as Stephen Jay Gould and Edward Wilson of Harvard, Richard Dawkins of England, William Provine of Cornell, and numerous other evolutionary spokesmen are dogmatic atheists. Eminent scientific philosopher and ardent Darwinian atheist Michael Ruse has even acknowledged that evolution is their religion!

Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion -- a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality . . . . Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today...

They must believe in evolution, therefore, in spite of all the evidence, not because of it. And speaking of deceptions, note the following remarkable statement

quote:

We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, . . . in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated commitment to materialism. . . . we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counterintuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.


The author of this frank statement is Richard Lewontin of Harvard. Since evolution is not a laboratory science, there is no way to test its validity, so all sorts of justso stories are contrived to adorn the textbooks. But that doesn't make them true! An evolutionist reviewing a recent book by another (but more critical) evolutionist, says:

quote:

We cannot identify ancestors or "missing links," and we cannot devise testable theories to explain how particular episodes of evolution came about. Gee is adamant that all the popular stories about how the first amphibians conquered the dry land, how the birds developed wings and feathers for flying, how the dinosaurs went extinct, and how humans evolved from apes are just products of our imagination, driven by prejudices and preconceptions.


A fascinatingly honest admission by a physicist indicates the passionate commitment of establishment scientists to naturalism. Speaking of the trust students naturally place in their highly educated college professors, he says:

quote:

And I use that trust to effectively brainwash them. . . . our teaching methods are primarily those of propaganda. We appeal -- without demonstration -- to evidence that supports our position. We only introduce arguments and evidence that supports the currently accepted theories and omit or gloss over any evidence to the contrary


Creationist students in scientific courses taught by evolutionist professors can testify to the frustrating reality of that statement. Evolution is, indeed, the pseudoscientific basis of religious atheism, as Ruse pointed out. Will Provine at Cornell University is another scientist who frankly acknowledges this.

quote:

As the creationists claim, belief in modern evolution makes atheists of people. One can have a religious view that is compatible with evolution only if the religious view is indistinguishable from atheism


Once again, we emphasize that evolution is not science, evolutionists' tirades notwithstanding. It is a philosophical worldview, nothing more...

As far as the twentieth century is concerned, the leading evolutionist is generally considered to be Sir Julian Huxley, primary architect of modern neo-Darwinism. Huxley called evolution a "religion without revelation" and wrote a book with that title (2nd edition, 1957). In a later book, he said:

quote:

Evolution . . . is the most powerful and the most comprehensive idea that has ever arisen on earth


Later in the book he argued passionately that we must change "our pattern of religious thought from a God-centered to an evolution-centered pattern." Then he went on to say that: "The God hypothesis . . . is becoming an intellectual and moral burden on our thought." Therefore, he concluded that "we must construct something to take its place."

That something, of course, is the religion of evolutionary humanism, and that is what the leaders of evolutionary humanism are trying to do today.

In closing this survey of the scientific case against evolution (and, therefore, for creation), the reader is reminded again that all quotations in the article are from doctrinaire evolutionists. No Bible references are included, and no statements by creationists. The evolutionists themselves, to all intents and purposes, have shown that evolutionism is not science, but religious faith in atheism.



http://www.icr.org/home/resources/resources_tracts_scientificcaseagainstevolution/

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 7/16/2017 4:52:23 PM >

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 5:10:18 PM   
mnottertail


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it may be that you have some quotes that are on the outskirts of problems with evolution, that does not make a case for creation as is blathered.

Garlic keeps vampires at bay, why? Because there are no vampires right here. Nope.



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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 5:19:00 PM   
Milesnmiles


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Whereas, I’m not a big believer in “Creationism” and the “young earth theory”, a philosophical argument can be made for it. If you postulate an almighty God, then he could have made the universe yesterday or for that matter 15 minutes ago. Yes, I’ve heard the stuff about light taking billions of years to cross the universe but then God could have just created it to look that way.

As for Evolution, all the “overwhelming scientific evidence for evolution” is not directly evidence of evolution, while it might prove that it could have happened that way, it does not prove that it actually did happen that way.

So, until someone invents a time machine and goes back in time and records what actually happened and brings it back and shows us, each one of us can decide for ourselves what to believe.

What should schools teach? Personally I don’t care, I hope that they will teach reading, writing and arithmetic; some common sense and thinking ability would be nice too but teaching children is really the parents responsibility and parents need to stand up and make sure that their children are getting the well-rounded education they need, even if they have to teach them themselves.

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 5:59:15 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

"The Scientific Case Against Evolution"


Do you think, or expect anyone else to think, that an entity known as "the institute for creation research" is going to be anything like 1% independent?

Be fucking serious willya?
If you had posted something form an actual scientific journal, it might have credence.

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 6:28:04 PM   
WickedsDesire


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is there anyone on here arguing the earth is 4000 years olde?



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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 6:33:40 PM   
heavyblinker


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The Earth is actually 20 minutes old.
It was created exactly as it is now and all evidence suggesting otherwise is the work of Satan.

Prove me wrong.

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 6:34:26 PM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

"The Scientific Case Against Evolution"


Do you think, or expect anyone else to think, that an entity known as "the institute for creation research" is going to be anything like 1% independent?

Be fucking serious willya?
If you had posted something form an actual scientific journal, it might have credence.

Well then show a dat or a cog in a fossil record. That's all you have to do. You don't need to be insulting.

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 6:36:44 PM   
WickedsDesire


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Do any of you understand the concept of the beginning

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 6:38:57 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

have said this numerous times in my life, and here as well, and as long as this type of broad nonsense keeps appearing, i'll keep saying it:

on the whole, each side starts with basic assumptions--there is a god, there is not a god--and then its a question of the evidence supporting one side or the other.

apart from that its the biggest lie fobbed off on mankind ever, its also not "science" in this strictest sense and it requires more "faith" to believe in evolution than it does in creationism.






And that's why numerous times you've demonstrated that you have no clue what science is.

Science is a mode of inquiry. Not a belief. Not a list of conclusions.

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 6:44:22 PM   
WickedsDesire


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can anyone find me the trailer ffs

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 6:47:45 PM   
WickedsDesire


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goddamn you poverty - give me a few moments

will this one do dear readers? Babylon 5 EPIC Battle Montage

best sci fi show ever - bar non

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 7:26:05 PM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

have said this numerous times in my life, and here as well, and as long as this type of broad nonsense keeps appearing, i'll keep saying it:

on the whole, each side starts with basic assumptions--there is a god, there is not a god--and then its a question of the evidence supporting one side or the other.

apart from that its the biggest lie fobbed off on mankind ever, its also not "science" in this strictest sense and it requires more "faith" to believe in evolution than it does in creationism.






And that's why numerous times you've demonstrated that you have no clue what science is.

Science is a mode of inquiry. Not a belief. Not a list of conclusions.

I think you missed that he was discussing evolution, not science.

As to science:

sci·ence
ˈsīəns/
noun
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.


How does the intellectual activity encompassing the study of the natural world through observation exclude a creationist vantage point?


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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 7:27:45 PM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

The Earth is actually 20 minutes old.
It was created exactly as it is now and all evidence suggesting otherwise is the work of Satan.

Prove me wrong.

Honestly, if the earth was created by an all knowing all seeing all powerful God 20 minutes ago and he wanted us to believe the Earth was millions of years old, there would be no evidence suggesting otherwise, unless someone like Satan came along later and faked it.
;-)

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 7:28:58 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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No difference. He thinks it's assumptions then building on that.

Science starts with hypotheses which are then tested.

Which answers your question as well. If it can't be tested, and independently verified, and hence used to predict, it's speculation, not science.

No matter how long or hard or brilliantly you think about it.

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/16/2017 7:39:59 PM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No difference. He thinks it's assumptions then building on that.

Science starts with hypotheses which are then tested.

Which answers your question as well. If it can't be tested, and independently verified, and hence used to predict, it's speculation, not science.

No matter how long or hard or brilliantly you think about it.

Explain the difference between assumption and hypotheses?

String theory is said to be unprovable yet it takes up a lot of time with a lot of physicists. By your statement, String Theory is not science and those physicists are not scientists.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 40
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