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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 6:40:05 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
...
I believe that the way this nation is set up, one central government shouldn't be dictating what the entire nation learns in the classroom. If parents want to teach that life climbed out of a lightning struck mud pool or was divinely created a few thousand years ago they should have access to the people who dictate the curriculum.
...


but choosing your own curriculum would be religious freedom and we cant have that in america, no no no!

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(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 6:40:49 AM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No difference. He thinks it's assumptions then building on that.

Science starts with hypotheses which are then tested.

Which answers your question as well. If it can't be tested, and independently verified, and hence used to predict, it's speculation, not science.

No matter how long or hard or brilliantly you think about it.


Which makes the Big Bang Theory, speculation and not science, as it is NOT testable.


It actually is testable... the large hadron collider could potentially debunk it, in fact.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/large-hadron-collider/11489442/Big-Bang-theory-could-be-debunked-by-Large-Hadron-Collider.html

I'm not going to pretend I understand it all, but sufficed to say the Big Bang Theory can be verified or debunked based on things that are observable.

God is not something that could ever be falsified and cannot be tested, and so can never be science.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 6:46:03 AM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
...
I believe that the way this nation is set up, one central government shouldn't be dictating what the entire nation learns in the classroom. If parents want to teach that life climbed out of a lightning struck mud pool or was divinely created a few thousand years ago they should have access to the people who dictate the curriculum.
...


but choosing your own curriculum would be religious freedom and we cant have that in america, no no no!


Not letting them force children to accept their dogma as science isn't the same thing as burning down their church.
Can you seriously not see the difference?

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 6:47:32 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

Unless one has infinite evidence, it is no more beneficial to make conclusions from than faith.

Again, this simply highlights your misunderstanding of what science is and does. It's not about conclusions -- it's about the process, the mode of inquiry.

Here's an entertaining overview: http://producer.csi.edu/cdraney/archive-courses/fall07/engl102/e-texts/gould-essay.pdf (starts on page 2).

As people, we draw conclusions everyday on imperfect evidence, often without faith it will work out, and often to our benefit. (Not science either, but your assertion is flawed even on the face of it.)

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 6:48:18 AM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
...
I believe that the way this nation is set up, one central government shouldn't be dictating what the entire nation learns in the classroom. If parents want to teach that life climbed out of a lightning struck mud pool or was divinely created a few thousand years ago they should have access to the people who dictate the curriculum.
...


So the ignorants who have no knowledge about any matters should and do dictate the curriculum?
No more questions ...


Ignorance is his whole way of life... you can't expect him to not defend it.

(in reply to blnymph)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 6:48:47 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No difference. He thinks it's assumptions then building on that.

Science starts with hypotheses which are then tested.

Which answers your question as well. If it can't be tested, and independently verified, and hence used to predict, it's speculation, not science.

No matter how long or hard or brilliantly you think about it.


Which makes the Big Bang Theory, speculation and not science, as it is NOT testable.


It actually is testable... the large hadron collider could potentially debunk it, in fact.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/large-hadron-collider/11489442/Big-Bang-theory-could-be-debunked-by-Large-Hadron-Collider.html

I'm not going to pretend I understand it all, but sufficed to say the Big Bang Theory can be verified or debunked based on things that are observable.

God is not something that could ever be falsified and cannot be tested, and so can never be science.

Further, if you want to maintain that God created the Universe using the Big Bang, that works as well as anything at the moment.

(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 6:51:36 AM   
heavyblinker


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So does the flying spaghetti monster.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 6:54:14 AM   
Musicmystery


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Sure. Though unnecessarily antagonistic.

It also introduces a new character, though, in violation of Ockham's razor.

(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 6:59:34 AM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Since this is junior high school science . . .

Dude.

As for astrophysics, I'll refer you to Richard Feynman, who pointed out we learn from the observation of effects in those instances.

And--science never "proves" anything . . . another misconception. It notes what's likely given what we know so far, and continues to test and expand knowledge by so doing. When a better explanation comes along, science changes. That's a key difference between your "assumption" model and testing hypotheses.

Speculation is a dead end. You have your belief. And that's where your "learning" stops.

A theory, in the scientific sense, can be used to accurately predict occurrences. If it works . . . it's a possibility, for now, until someone explains it better.

Gravity is "just a theory" by your logic. In fact, physicists didn't understand what it was. But as Newton noted, when you drop shit, it still falls. Now we know that it's really space-time curved toward the earth that appears to attract things at the rate of 16 ft/sec/sec. But with that update -- shit still falls.

"What you think" is useless in science. It's what do you think, based on observation, might explain the phenomenon, that you can test and verify and then use to predict.

What can Creationism predict? It's one and done.

Evolution is a couple of different theories. But that there's a fossil record showing a gradual change as we move through millions of years of geological strata -- that we know well enough to predict the kinds of life we'd find at a certain place, for example.

That evolution happens in some species in abrupt jumps in response to environmental changes (punctuated equilibrium) -- like pepper moths and galapagos finches -- has been observed and studied already.

Not because someone believes it, or because someone has assumptions that favor it -- but because available data supports it, can be independently verified, and can be used to predict what we'll find in similar circumstances.

And not because someone has decided it's true, because that's not how science works. When we know more, and it works better, science updates.

Incidentally, string theory is one of many models to explain the universe, and it's an older one. Check out Carlo Rovelli's books for an entertaining and fascinating explanation of these (I won't try to explain them -- it's interesting stuff, though, and he shows why these are favored, in terms of better explaining the universe).



All of this cut and paste is fine except you totally ignored my comments to you. I notice you trimmed them so people couldn't see that your response had nothing to do with my comments to you. Now, perhaps you'll get back to the topic VML posted.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 7:01:25 AM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

Unless one has infinite evidence, it is no more beneficial to make conclusions from than faith.

Again, this simply highlights your misunderstanding of what science is and does. It's not about conclusions -- it's about the process, the mode of inquiry.

Here's an entertaining overview: http://producer.csi.edu/cdraney/archive-courses/fall07/engl102/e-texts/gould-essay.pdf (starts on page 2).

As people, we draw conclusions everyday on imperfect evidence, often without faith it will work out, and often to our benefit. (Not science either, but your assertion is flawed even on the face of it.)

I see you trimmed the context of the comment which makes your comment silly. You seem to do that a lot. Now can you get back to the OP?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 7:03:22 AM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

"The Scientific Case Against Evolution"


Do you think, or expect anyone else to think, that an entity known as "the institute for creation research" is going to be anything like 1% independent?

Be fucking serious willya?
If you had posted something form an actual scientific journal, it might have credence.

Well then show a dat or a cog in a fossil record. That's all you have to do. You don't need to be insulting.

1. I think you might have some typos. Pls elaborate.

2. If one wishes to be taken seriously, one might use sources that don't have orders of magnitude less journalistic integrity than Vox or The Washington Times.
The source used makes the National Enquirer look like the Wall Street Journal.

If you'd have read the post you were commenting on before you made your comment you'd see there was no misspelling.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 7:05:55 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

Unless one has infinite evidence, it is no more beneficial to make conclusions from than faith.

Again, this simply highlights your misunderstanding of what science is and does. It's not about conclusions -- it's about the process, the mode of inquiry.

Here's an entertaining overview: http://producer.csi.edu/cdraney/archive-courses/fall07/engl102/e-texts/gould-essay.pdf (starts on page 2).

As people, we draw conclusions everyday on imperfect evidence, often without faith it will work out, and often to our benefit. (Not science either, but your assertion is flawed even on the face of it.)

I see you trimmed the context of the comment which makes your comment silly. You seem to do that a lot. Now can you get back to the OP?

No, I responded to the relevant point, rather than continually requoting irrelevant parts. You seem to use this "objection" a lot.

And, we are on the OP.

If you don't want to discuss a particular point, don't post it. If you post it, it's gonna be discussed. It's how forums work.

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 7:08:14 AM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
...
I believe that the way this nation is set up, one central government shouldn't be dictating what the entire nation learns in the classroom. If parents want to teach that life climbed out of a lightning struck mud pool or was divinely created a few thousand years ago they should have access to the people who dictate the curriculum.
...


So the ignorants who have no knowledge about any matters should and do dictate the curriculum?
No more questions ...

The parents of the child. Only a fascist would make your assumption and take away parental rights.

(in reply to blnymph)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 7:10:01 AM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
...
I believe that the way this nation is set up, one central government shouldn't be dictating what the entire nation learns in the classroom. If parents want to teach that life climbed out of a lightning struck mud pool or was divinely created a few thousand years ago they should have access to the people who dictate the curriculum.
...


So the ignorants who have no knowledge about any matters should and do dictate the curriculum?
No more questions ...


Ignorance is his whole way of life... you can't expect him to not defend it.

I thought you blocked me. Telling lies again. We see you're a fascist too.

(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 7:10:16 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

No they weren't clearly designed. if they were designed, they would be a hell of a lot more efficient.

Who in their right minds would have ever designed humans the way we are .....?

Stephen Fry talks of a bug that only lives in the eyes of children, blinding them. Is that the creation of an intelligent designer? Or a deranged vicious cosmic psychopath?

The scabies mite, threadworms (I think the eye bug is a grub related to threadworms: David Attenborough had raised that as an objection to intelligent design a good twenty years before Stephen Fry), the dysentry amoeba and the influenza virus all raise questions about that as well.

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 7:10:24 AM   
Musicmystery


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As this nation is set up, one central government doesn't dictate what the entire nation learns in the classroom. The state education departments and the local school boards do that primarily. They did pretty much entirely, until Bush intervened with No Child Left Behind, ushering in Common Core which in some states (like NY) actually lowered standards.

Parents are welcome to share their views and to run for school board. Or for statewide office.

Or national, for that matter. It's a matter of representation.

Certainly a unit on, say, the Civil War, looks very different in Mississippi than it does in Massachusetts.

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 7:11:56 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
...
I believe that the way this nation is set up, one central government shouldn't be dictating what the entire nation learns in the classroom. If parents want to teach that life climbed out of a lightning struck mud pool or was divinely created a few thousand years ago they should have access to the people who dictate the curriculum.
...


So the ignorants who have no knowledge about any matters should and do dictate the curriculum?
No more questions ...

The parents of the child. Only a fascist would make your assumption and take away parental rights.

The child's parents' authority should extend to every other child in the school district as well as their own , then?

_____________________________

On the level and looking for a square deal.

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 7:14:52 AM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
...
I believe that the way this nation is set up, one central government shouldn't be dictating what the entire nation learns in the classroom. If parents want to teach that life climbed out of a lightning struck mud pool or was divinely created a few thousand years ago they should have access to the people who dictate the curriculum.
...


So the ignorants who have no knowledge about any matters should and do dictate the curriculum?
No more questions ...

The parents of the child. Only a fascist would make your assumption and take away parental rights.

The child's parents' authority should extend to every other child in the school district as well as their own , then?


Those families can move to Venezuela.

(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 7:14:56 AM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

As this nation is set up, one central government doesn't dictate what the entire nation learns in the classroom. The state education departments and the local school boards do that primarily. They did pretty much entirely, until Bush intervened with No Child Left Behind, ushering in Common Core which in some states (like NY) actually lowered standards.

Parents are welcome to share their views and to run for school board. Or for statewide office.

Or national, for that matter. It's a matter of representation.

Right...no child left behind isn't in every school. Well, actually it's not anymore. It's been replaced with the next college of Ed. Boondoggle. The Department of Ed is a big government (that's why you must like it) power structure that does dictate to states and local school districts. You're full of shit if you think otherwise.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 7:16:16 AM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
...
I believe that the way this nation is set up, one central government shouldn't be dictating what the entire nation learns in the classroom. If parents want to teach that life climbed out of a lightning struck mud pool or was divinely created a few thousand years ago they should have access to the people who dictate the curriculum.
...


So the ignorants who have no knowledge about any matters should and do dictate the curriculum?
No more questions ...

The parents of the child. Only a fascist would make your assumption and take away parental rights.

The child's parents' authority should extend to every other child in the school district as well as their own , then?

What an idiot.

(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 80
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