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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 11:14:29 AM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why do you bother creating pretend arguments?

Obviously, whether he feels parents should pay or whether the government should pay for their alternate education is a leap you took without him.

Why do you ignore arguments you don't or can't defend. I'm still waiting on whether or not string theory I science, for instance.

I'm waiting for your justification for your belief that parental authority should be extended to other people's kids through a school board humouring parents who want their kids taught fairystories rather than a science curriculum based on generally accepted scientific research.
If you're going to whine about other people not rising to your own baiting of their arguments, you should at least pretend that you're dealing with objections to your own bullshit.

A) I don't whine. If you're seeing that, you're projecting. B) who are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't do. If what I said went over your head either say so or ignore it.

I'm somebody who thinks that you have no business telling other posters what to do when what you're demanding that they do is something you conspicuously avoid doing yourself.
Clear now?

No, not clear. Go into it in depth.

(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 11:35:42 AM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline
I wondered how long it would take for the posters to stop reading and even trying to understand what the other posters are saying and instead just posting whatever pops into their minds without worrying about whether their posts actually have any bearing on what has been said.

It's a little like putting on music from two different genres and listening to them at the same time, just a cacophony of sounds that drowns each other out.

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 11:38:03 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10540
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

The problem is the state has overeached and has established itself as a religion. This happens when it favors one religion over another, such as bigamy laws, gay cakes and so forth, hence the state religion is being fostered and FORCED upon people.

That is unadulterated, embarrassing horseshit.



bullshit vince, when the state takes a religious stand it establishes itself as a religion.

That is what religion is ffs.

The only legitimate course of action the state can choose is to dismiss those cases entirely on grounds they are religious matters.

If any case should stand out like a sore glaring red thumb its state bigamy laws used to trump the mormons religious practice of poly.



.....and why religion poisons everything. The very concept becomes and is now showing itself, to be very dangerous to society.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 11:42:08 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10540
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

basically when its done by the state, the state forces EVERYONE to do things the state way, and the people are FORCED to GIVE UP doing things their way. In the case of gay cakes which is clearly [a religion] because it is a precise antithesis to the christian religion.

extremely simply 101 synthesis, not much different than light/dark synthesis.

This is why religion is so important, because even atheists have morals and once the state gets a hold of the TOTAL or near toal power [as it is today] to establish and rule by state religion atheists can shove their morals where the sun dont shine because they too are subject to the state religion!

Right now most atheists are set on a course to self destruct because they dont have the mental capacity to think beyond their noses of the consequences of what they preach




Now you are out in left field...off the reservation.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 11:42:17 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Maybe you should read the answer.

I did read what you wrote. It was about the Big Bang, which I'll agree is measurable theoretically. It wasn't about string theory. Is it that you don't understand what was being discussed?

Then you read part of it. Now read the rest.

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 11:50:16 AM   
MAINEiacMISTRESS


Posts: 1180
Joined: 9/12/2012
Status: offline
"Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster"

That's a damn waste. It should be COMPOSTED. With all that "creation" in it, it would make the best dirt for growing vegetables!

(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 11:57:16 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10540
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

A couple of quick response. Not in California. Also, wherever those people obtain goods and services, someone is using the road. Sears won't fly to your house to fix your refrigerator. Buses actually do a disportionate amount of damage to roads compared to cars. Police and fire services use roads. School buses use roads. Pizza delivery people drive on roads.


So, your saying that roads are a social necessity? And would you agree that public education is a social necessity or did the Progressives of the 19th Century get that wrong?

I said roads are paid for by users and there is generally nobody that isn't a road user. In this state we pay nearly $0.80 per gallon in taxes on gas. You're leap to a progressive social necessity isn't the same idea as a conservative, if you use it you pay your fair share.

If you are talking about Calif.:

May 23. 2017

Brown's transportation package raises the state's gas excise tax from 18 cents to 30 cents a gallon, and diesel excise taxes from 16 to 36 cents a gallon. A special sales tax on diesel would jump from 1.75 percent to 5.75 percent. Car registration fees would increase by at least $25 and as much as $175, depending on the value of a vehicle.

HERE

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 12:00:46 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10540
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS

"Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster"

That's a damn waste. It should be COMPOSTED. With all that "creation" in it, it would make the best dirt for growing vegetables!

You seem to have a lotta faith...in that dirt.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to MAINEiacMISTRESS)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 12:34:18 PM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why do you bother creating pretend arguments?

Obviously, whether he feels parents should pay or whether the government should pay for their alternate education is a leap you took without him.

Why do you ignore arguments you don't or can't defend. I'm still waiting on whether or not string theory I science, for instance.

I'm waiting for your justification for your belief that parental authority should be extended to other people's kids through a school board humouring parents who want their kids taught fairystories rather than a science curriculum based on generally accepted scientific research.
If you're going to whine about other people not rising to your own baiting of their arguments, you should at least pretend that you're dealing with objections to your own bullshit.

A) I don't whine. If you're seeing that, you're projecting. B) who are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't do. If what I said went over your head either say so or ignore it.

I'm somebody who thinks that you have no business telling other posters what to do when what you're demanding that they do is something you conspicuously avoid doing yourself.
Clear now?

No, not clear. Go into it in depth.

Is this some sort of weird mental block trumptooners develop because they think that only leftists are capable of hypocrisy and double standards, or just another attempt to evade answering the question that was raised?

_____________________________

On the level and looking for a square deal.

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 1:10:57 PM   
blnymph


Posts: 1534
Joined: 11/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
...
I believe that the way this nation is set up, one central government shouldn't be dictating what the entire nation learns in the classroom. If parents want to teach that life climbed out of a lightning struck mud pool or was divinely created a few thousand years ago they should have access to the people who dictate the curriculum.
...


So the ignorants who have no knowledge about any matters should and do dictate the curriculum?
No more questions ...

The parents of the child. Only a fascist would make your assumption and take away parental rights.


It is not justified by whatever parental right to force into curriculum that 1 plus 1 equals 3. It is simple and obvious stupidity.

School is to teach children what they need to know about the world they live in. This usually exceeds what their parents know. Happens to be like that for hundreds of years and generations. School was not introduced to make children sillier but wiser..

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 1:33:05 PM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

basically when its done by the state, the state forces EVERYONE to do things the state way, and the people are FORCED to GIVE UP doing things their way. In the case of gay cakes which is clearly [a religion] because it is a precise antithesis to the christian religion.

extremely simply 101 synthesis, not much different than light/dark synthesis.

This is why religion is so important, because even atheists have morals and once the state gets a hold of the TOTAL or near toal power [as it is today] to establish and rule by state religion atheists can shove their morals where the sun dont shine because they too are subject to the state religion!

Right now most atheists are set on a course to self destruct because they dont have the mental capacity to think beyond their noses of the consequences of what they preach




Now you are out in left field...off the reservation.


When is he not in outer space about everything?
Anyone who suggests that government isn't inherently evil and oppressive is a brainwashed sheeple cult member and slave.

There were a few guys like him in my high school... I remember them well.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 3:38:52 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

basically when its done by the state, the state forces EVERYONE to do things the state way, and the people are FORCED to GIVE UP doing things their way. In the case of gay cakes which is clearly [a religion] because it is a precise antithesis to the christian religion.

extremely simply 101 synthesis, not much different than light/dark synthesis.

This is why religion is so important, because even atheists have morals and once the state gets a hold of the TOTAL or near toal power [as it is today] to establish and rule by state religion atheists can shove their morals where the sun dont shine because they too are subject to the state religion!

Right now most atheists are set on a course to self destruct because they dont have the mental capacity to think beyond their noses of the consequences of what they preach




Now you are out in left field...off the reservation.


When is he not in outer space about everything?
Anyone who suggests that government isn't inherently evil and oppressive is a brainwashed sheeple cult member and slave.

There were a few guys like him in my high school... I remember them well.



you had skull n bones dubya x2, the clinton syndicate, the kenyan, now trump, I rest my case!


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 3:42:15 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
...
I believe that the way this nation is set up, one central government shouldn't be dictating what the entire nation learns in the classroom. If parents want to teach that life climbed out of a lightning struck mud pool or was divinely created a few thousand years ago they should have access to the people who dictate the curriculum.
...


So the ignorants who have no knowledge about any matters should and do dictate the curriculum?
No more questions ...

The parents of the child. Only a fascist would make your assumption and take away parental rights.


It is not justified by whatever parental right to force into curriculum that 1 plus 1 equals 3. It is simple and obvious stupidity.

School is to teach children what they need to know about the world they live in. This usually exceeds what their parents know. Happens to be like that for hundreds of years and generations. School was not introduced to make children sillier but wiser..



kids? I have even seen it here where everyone are supposed adults.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to blnymph)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 4:43:07 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline
"Evolution Is Religion--Not Science"

a little repetition from previous posts but still worth sharing...

quote:

The writer has documented in two recent Impact articles1, 2 from admissions by evolutionists that the idea of particles-to-people evolution does not meet the criteria of a scientific theory. There are no evolutionary transitions that have ever been observed, either during human history or in the fossil record of the past; and the universal law of entropy seems to make it impossible on any significant scale.

Evolutionists claim that evolution is a scientific fact, but they almost always lose scientific debates with creationist scientists. Accordingly, most evolutionists now decline opportunities for scientific debates, preferring instead to make unilateral attacks on creationists.

The question is, just why do they need to counter the creationist message? Why are they so adamantly committed to anti-creationism?

The fact is that evolutionists believe in evolution because they want to. It is their desire at all costs to explain the origin of everything without a Creator. Evolutionism is thus intrinsically an atheistic religion. Some may prefer to call it humanism, and New Age evolutionists may place it in the context of some form of pantheism, but they all amount to the same thing. Whether atheism or humanism (or even pantheism), the purpose is to eliminate a personal God from any active role in the origin of the universe and all its components, including man.

The core of the humanistic philosophy is naturalism—the proposition that the natural world proceeds according to its own internal dynamics, without divine or supernatural control or guidance, and that we human beings are creations of that process. It is instructive to recall that the philosophers of the early humanistic movement debated as to which term more adequately described their position: humanism or naturalism. The two concepts are complementary and inseparable.4

Since both naturalism and humanism exclude God from science or any other active function in the creation or maintenance of life and the universe in general, it is very obvious that their position is nothing but atheism. And atheism, no less than theism, is a religion! Even doctrinaire-atheistic evolutionist Richard Dawkins admits that atheism cannot be proven to be true.

Therefore, they must believe it, and that makes it a religion. The atheistic nature of evolution is not only admitted, but insisted upon, by most of the leaders of evolutionary thought. Ernst Mayr, for example, says that:

quote:

Darwinism rejects all supernatural phenomena and causations
...

They must believe in evolution, therefore, in spite of all the evidence, not because of it. And speaking of deceptions, note the following remarkable statement

quote:

We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, . . . in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated commitment to materialism. . . . we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counterintuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.


The author of this frank statement is Richard Lewontin of Harvard. Since evolution is not a laboratory science, there is no way to test its validity, so all sorts of justso stories are contrived to adorn the textbooks. But that doesn't make them true! An evolutionist reviewing a recent book by another (but more critical) evolutionist, says:

quote:

We cannot identify ancestors or "missing links," and we cannot devise testable theories to explain how particular episodes of evolution came about. Gee is adamant that all the popular stories about how the first amphibians conquered the dry land, how the birds developed wings and feathers for flying, how the dinosaurs went extinct, and how humans evolved from apes are just products of our imagination, driven by prejudices and preconceptions.


A fascinatingly honest admission by a physicist indicates the passionate commitment of establishment scientists to naturalism...

Evolution is, indeed, the pseudoscientific basis of religious atheism, as Ruse pointed out. Will Provine at Cornell University is another scientist who frankly acknowledges this.

quote:

As the creationists claim, belief in modern evolution makes atheists of people. One can have a religious view that is compatible with evolution only if the religious view is indistinguishable from atheism


Once again we emphasize that evolution is not science, evolutionists' tirades notwithstanding. It is a philosophical worldview, nothing more. Another prominent evolutionist comments as follows:

quote:

(Evolution) must, they feel, explain everything. . . . A theory that explains everything might just as well be discarded since it has no real explanatory value. Of course, the other thing about evolution is that anything can be said because very little can be disproved. Experimental evidence is minimal


Even that statement is too generous. Actual experimental evidence demonstrating true evolution (that is, macroevolution) is not "minimal." It is nonexistent!...

In closing this summary of the scientific case against evolution (and, therefore, for creation), the reader is reminded again that all quotations in the article are from doctrinaire evolutionists. No Bible references are included, and no statements by creationists. The evolutionists themselves, to all intents and purposes, have shown that evolutionism is not science, but religious faith in atheism.


http://www.icr.org/i/pdf/imp/imp-332.pdf (go here comrades)

http://www.icr.org/article/455/

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 4:44:31 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline
"Evolution Is Religion--Not Science"

a little repetition from previous posts but still worth sharing...

quote:

The writer has documented in two recent Impact articles1, 2 from admissions by evolutionists that the idea of particles-to-people evolution does not meet the criteria of a scientific theory. There are no evolutionary transitions that have ever been observed, either during human history or in the fossil record of the past; and the universal law of entropy seems to make it impossible on any significant scale.

Evolutionists claim that evolution is a scientific fact, but they almost always lose scientific debates with creationist scientists. Accordingly, most evolutionists now decline opportunities for scientific debates, preferring instead to make unilateral attacks on creationists.

The question is, just why do they need to counter the creationist message? Why are they so adamantly committed to anti-creationism?

The fact is that evolutionists believe in evolution because they want to. It is their desire at all costs to explain the origin of everything without a Creator. Evolutionism is thus intrinsically an atheistic religion. Some may prefer to call it humanism, and New Age evolutionists may place it in the context of some form of pantheism, but they all amount to the same thing. Whether atheism or humanism (or even pantheism), the purpose is to eliminate a personal God from any active role in the origin of the universe and all its components, including man.

The core of the humanistic philosophy is naturalism—the proposition that the natural world proceeds according to its own internal dynamics, without divine or supernatural control or guidance, and that we human beings are creations of that process. It is instructive to recall that the philosophers of the early humanistic movement debated as to which term more adequately described their position: humanism or naturalism. The two concepts are complementary and inseparable.4

Since both naturalism and humanism exclude God from science or any other active function in the creation or maintenance of life and the universe in general, it is very obvious that their position is nothing but atheism. And atheism, no less than theism, is a religion! Even doctrinaire-atheistic evolutionist Richard Dawkins admits that atheism cannot be proven to be true.

Therefore, they must believe it, and that makes it a religion. The atheistic nature of evolution is not only admitted, but insisted upon, by most of the leaders of evolutionary thought. Ernst Mayr, for example, says that:

quote:

Darwinism rejects all supernatural phenomena and causations
...

They must believe in evolution, therefore, in spite of all the evidence, not because of it. And speaking of deceptions, note the following remarkable statement

quote:

We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, . . . in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated commitment to materialism. . . . we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counterintuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.


The author of this frank statement is Richard Lewontin of Harvard. Since evolution is not a laboratory science, there is no way to test its validity, so all sorts of justso stories are contrived to adorn the textbooks. But that doesn't make them true! An evolutionist reviewing a recent book by another (but more critical) evolutionist, says:

quote:

We cannot identify ancestors or "missing links," and we cannot devise testable theories to explain how particular episodes of evolution came about. Gee is adamant that all the popular stories about how the first amphibians conquered the dry land, how the birds developed wings and feathers for flying, how the dinosaurs went extinct, and how humans evolved from apes are just products of our imagination, driven by prejudices and preconceptions.


A fascinatingly honest admission by a physicist indicates the passionate commitment of establishment scientists to naturalism...

Evolution is, indeed, the pseudoscientific basis of religious atheism, as Ruse pointed out. Will Provine at Cornell University is another scientist who frankly acknowledges this.

quote:

As the creationists claim, belief in modern evolution makes atheists of people. One can have a religious view that is compatible with evolution only if the religious view is indistinguishable from atheism


Once again we emphasize that evolution is not science, evolutionists' tirades notwithstanding. It is a philosophical worldview, nothing more. Another prominent evolutionist comments as follows:

quote:

(Evolution) must, they feel, explain everything. . . . A theory that explains everything might just as well be discarded since it has no real explanatory value. Of course, the other thing about evolution is that anything can be said because very little can be disproved. Experimental evidence is minimal


Even that statement is too generous. Actual experimental evidence demonstrating true evolution (that is, macroevolution) is not "minimal." It is nonexistent!...

In closing this summary of the scientific case against evolution (and, therefore, for creation), the reader is reminded again that all quotations in the article are from doctrinaire evolutionists. No Bible references are included, and no statements by creationists. The evolutionists themselves, to all intents and purposes, have shown that evolutionism is not science, but religious faith in atheism.


http://www.icr.org/i/pdf/imp/imp-332.pdf (go here comrades)

http://www.icr.org/article/455/

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 4:48:21 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

"Evolution Is Religion--Not Science"

a little repetition from previous posts but still worth sharing...


http://www.icr.org/article/455/


Frequent repetition of shit is called diarrhea.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 6:04:40 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
Fingers in his ears, copy and paste.

Business as usual.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 6:13:24 PM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
...
I believe that the way this nation is set up, one central government shouldn't be dictating what the entire nation learns in the classroom. If parents want to teach that life climbed out of a lightning struck mud pool or was divinely created a few thousand years ago they should have access to the people who dictate the curriculum.
...


So the ignorants who have no knowledge about any matters should and do dictate the curriculum?
No more questions ...

The parents of the child. Only a fascist would make your assumption and take away parental rights.


It is not justified by whatever parental right to force into curriculum that 1 plus 1 equals 3. It is simple and obvious stupidity.

School is to teach children what they need to know about the world they live in. This usually exceeds what their parents know. Happens to be like that for hundreds of years and generations. School was not introduced to make children sillier but wiser..

Spoken like a true facist.

(in reply to blnymph)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 6:39:37 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline


Evolution as Fact and Theory

by Stephen Jay Gould

Kirtley Mather, who died last year at age ninety, was a pillar of both science and Christian religion in America and one of my dearest friends. The difference of a half-century in our ages evaporated before our common interests. The most curious thing we shared was a battle we each fought at the same age. For Kirtley had gone to Tennessee with Clarence Darrow to testify for evolution at the Scopes trial of 1925. When I think that we are enmeshed again in the same struggle for one of the best documented, most compelling and exciting concepts in all of science, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

According to idealized principles of scientific discourse, the arousal of dormant issues should reflect fresh data that give renewed life to abandoned notions. Those outside the current debate may therefore be excused for suspecting that creationists have come up with something new, or that evolutionists have generated some serious internal trouble. But nothing has changed; the creationists have presented not a single new fact or argument. Darrow and Bryan were at least more entertaining than we lesser antagonists today. The rise of creationism is politics, pure and simple; it represents one issue (and by no means the major concern) of the resurgent evangelical right. Arguments that seemed kooky just a decade ago have reentered the mainstream.

The basic attack of modern creationists falls apart on two general counts before we even reach the supposed factual details of their assault against evolution. First, they play upon a vernacular misunderstanding of the word "theory" to convey the false impression that we evolutionists are covering up the rotten core of our edifice. Second, they misuse a popular philosophy of science to argue that they are behaving scientifically in attacking evolution. Yet the same philosophy demonstrates that their own belief is not science, and that "scientific creationism" is a meaningless and self-contradictory phrase, an example of what Orwell called "newspeak."

In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"—part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus creationists can (and do) argue: evolution is "only" a theory, and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is less than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science—that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."

Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" does not mean "absolute certainty." The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been clear about this distinction between fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory—natural selection—to explain the mechanism of evolution. He wrote in The Descent of Man: "I had two distinct objects in view; firstly, to show that species had not been separately created, and secondly, that natural selection had been the chief agent of change. . . . Hence if I have erred in . . . having exaggerated its [natural selection's] power . . . I have at least, as I hope, done good service in aiding to overthrow the dogma of separate creations."

Thus Darwin acknowledged the provisional nature of natural selection while affirming the fact of evolution. The fruitful theoretical debate that Darwin initiated has never ceased. From the 1940s through the 1960s, Darwin's own theory of natural selection did achieve a temporary hegemony that it never enjoyed in his lifetime. But renewed debate characterizes our decade, and, while no biologists questions the importance of natural selection, many doubt its ubiquity. In particular, many evolutionists argue that substantial amounts of genetic change may not be subject to natural selection and may spread through the populations at random. Others are challenging Darwin's linking of natural selection with gradual, imperceptible change through all intermediary degrees; they are arguing that most evolutionary events may occur far more rapidly than Darwin envisioned.

Scientists regard debates on fundamental issues of theory as a sign of intellectual health and a source of excitement. Science is—and how else can I say it?—most fun when it plays with interesting ideas, examines their implications, and recognizes that old information might be explained in surprisingly new ways. Evolutionary theory is now enjoying this uncommon vigor. Yet amidst all this turmoil no biologist has been lead to doubt the fact that evolution occurred; we are debating how it happened. We are all trying to explain the same thing: the tree of evolutionary descent linking all organisms by ties of genealogy. Creationists pervert and caricature this debate by conveniently neglecting the common conviction that underlies it, and by falsely suggesting that evolutionists now doubt the very phenomenon we are struggling to understand.

Secondly, creationists claim that "the dogma of separate creations," as Darwin characterized it a century ago, is a scientific theory meriting equal time with evolution in high school biology curricula. But a popular viewpoint among philosophers of science belies this creationist argument. Philosopher Karl Popper has argued for decades that the primary criterion of science is the falsifiability of its theories. We can never prove absolutely, but we can falsify. A set of ideas that cannot, in principle, be falsified is not science.

The entire creationist program includes little more than a rhetorical attempt to falsify evolution by presenting supposed contradictions among its supporters. Their brand of creationism, they claim, is "scientific" because it follows the Popperian model in trying to demolish evolution. Yet Popper's argument must apply in both directions. One does not become a scientist by the simple act of trying to falsify a rival and truly scientific system; one has to present an alternative system that also meets Popper's criterion — it too must be falsifiable in principle.

"Scientific creationism" is a self-contradictory, nonsense phrase precisely because it cannot be falsified. I can envision observations and experiments that would disprove any evolutionary theory I know, but I cannot imagine what potential data could lead creationists to abandon their beliefs. Unbeatable systems are dogma, not science. Lest I seem harsh or rhetorical, I quote creationism's leading intellectual, Duane Gish, Ph.D. from his recent (1978) book, Evolution? The Fossils Say No! "By creation we mean the bringing into being by a supernatural Creator of the basic kinds of plants and animals by the process of sudden, or fiat, creation. We do not know how the Creator created, what process He used, for He used processes which are not now operating anywhere in the natural universe [Gish's italics]. This is why we refer to creation as special creation. We cannot discover by scientific investigations anything about the creative processes used by the Creator." Pray tell, Dr. Gish, in the light of your last sentence, what then is scientific creationism?

Our confidence that evolution occurred centers upon three general arguments. First, we have abundant, direct, observational evidence of evolution in action, from both the field and laboratory. This evidence ranges from countless experiments on change in nearly everything about fruit flies subjected to artificial selection in the laboratory to the famous populations of British moths that became black when industrial soot darkened the trees upon which the moths rest. (Moths gain protection from sharp-sighted bird predators by blending into the background.) Creationists do not deny these observations; how could they? Creationists have tightened their act. They now argue that God only created "basic kinds," and allowed for limited evolutionary meandering within them. Thus toy poodles and Great Danes come from the dog kind and moths can change color, but nature cannot convert a dog to a cat or a monkey to a man.

The second and third arguments for evolution—the case for major changes—do not involve direct observation of evolution in action. They rest upon inference, but are no less secure for that reason. Major evolutionary change requires too much time for direct observation on the scale of recorded human history. All historical sciences rest upon inference, and evolution is no different from geology, cosmology, or human history in this respect. In principle, we cannot observe processes that operated in the past. We must infer them from results that still surround us: living and fossil organisms for evolution, documents and artifacts for human history, strata and topography for geology.

The second argument—that the imperfection of nature reveals evolution—strikes many people as ironic, for they feel that evolution should be most elegantly displayed in the nearly perfect adaptation expressed by some organisms—the camber of a gull's wing, or butterflies that cannot be seen in ground litter because they mimic leaves so precisely. But perfection could be imposed by a wise creator or evolved by natural selection. Perfection covers the tracks of past history. And past history—the evidence of descent—is the mark of evolution.

Evolution lies exposed in the imperfections that record a history of descent. Why should a rat run, a bat fly, a porpoise swim, and I type this essay with structures built of the same bones unless we all inherited them from a common ancestor? An engineer, starting from scratch, could design better limbs in each case. Why should all the large native mammals of Australia be marsupials, unless they descended from a common ancestor isolated on this island continent? Marsupials are not "better," or ideally suited for Australia; many have been wiped out by placental mammals imported by man from other continents. This principle of imperfection extends to all historical sciences. When we recognize the etymology of September, October, November, and December (seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth), we know that the year once started in March, or that two additional months must have been added to an original calendar of ten months.

The third argument is more direct: transitions are often found in the fossil record. Preserved transitions are not common—and should not be, according to our understanding of evolution (see next section) but they are not entirely wanting, as creationists often claim. The lower jaw of reptiles contains several bones, that of mammals only one. The non-mammalian jawbones are reduced, step by step, in mammalian ancestors until they become tiny nubbins located at the back of the jaw. The "hammer" and "anvil" bones of the mammalian ear are descendants of these nubbins. How could such a transition be accomplished? the creationists ask. Surely a bone is either entirely in the jaw or in the ear. Yet paleontologists have discovered two transitional lineages of therapsids (the so-called mammal-like reptiles) with a double jaw joint—one composed of the old quadrate and articular bones (soon to become the hammer and anvil), the other of the squamosal and dentary bones (as in modern mammals). For that matter, what better transitional form could we expect to find than the oldest human, Australopithecus afarensis, with its apelike palate, its human upright stance, and a cranial capacity larger than any ape�s of the same body size but a full 1,000 cubic centimeters below ours? If God made each of the half-dozen human species discovered in ancient rocks, why did he create in an unbroken temporal sequence of progressively more modern features—increasing cranial capacity, reduced face and teeth, larder body size? Did he create to mimic evolution and test our faith thereby?

Faced with these facts of evolution and the philosophical bankruptcy of their own position, creationists rely upon distortion and innuendo to buttress their rhetorical claim. If I sound sharp or bitter, indeed I am—for I have become a major target of these practices.

I count myself among the evolutionists who argue for a jerky, or episodic, rather than a smoothly gradual, pace of change. In 1972 my colleague Niles Eldredge and I developed the theory of punctuated equilibrium. We argued that two outstanding facts of the fossil record—geologically "sudden" origin of new species and failure to change thereafter (stasis)—reflect the predictions of evolutionary theory, not the imperfections of the fossil record. In most theories, small isolated populations are the source of new species, and the process of speciation takes thousands or tens of thousands of years. This amount of time, so long when measured against our lives, is a geological microsecond. It represents much less than 1 per cent of the average life-span for a fossil invertebrate species—more than ten million years. Large, widespread, and well established species, on the other hand, are not expected to change very much. We believe that the inertia of large populations explains the stasis of most fossil species over millions of years.

We proposed the theory of punctuated equilibrium largely to provide a different explanation for pervasive trends in the fossil record. Trends, we argued, cannot be attributed to gradual transformation within lineages, but must arise from the different success of certain kinds of species. A trend, we argued, is more like climbing a flight of stairs (punctuated and stasis) than rolling up an inclined plane.

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups. Yet a pamphlet entitled "Harvard Scientists Agree Evolution Is a Hoax" states: "The facts of punctuated equilibrium which Gould and Eldredge…are forcing Darwinists to swallow fit the picture that Bryan insisted on, and which God has revealed to us in the Bible."

Continuing the distortion, several creationists have equated the theory of punctuated equilibrium with a caricature of the beliefs of Richard Goldschmidt, a great early geneticist. Goldschmidt argued, in a famous book published in 1940, that new groups can arise all at once through major mutations. He referred to these suddenly transformed creatures as "hopeful monsters." (I am attracted to some aspects of the non-caricatured version, but Goldschmidt's theory still has nothing to do with punctuated equilibrium—see essays in section 3 and my explicit essay on Goldschmidt in The Pandas Thumb.) Creationist Luther Sunderland talks of the "punctuated equilibrium hopeful monster theory" and tells his hopeful readers that "it amounts to tacit admission that anti-evolutionists are correct in asserting there is no fossil evidence supporting the theory that all life is connected to a common ancestor." Duane Gish writes, "According to Goldschmidt, and now apparently according to Gould, a reptile laid an egg from which the first bird, feathers and all, was produced." Any evolutionists who believed such nonsense would rightly be laughed off the intellectual stage; yet the only theory that could ever envision such a scenario for the origin of birds is creationism—with God acting in the egg.

I am both angry at and amused by the creationists; but mostly I am deeply sad. Sad for many reasons. Sad because so many people who respond to creationist appeals are troubled for the right reason, but venting their anger at the wrong target. It is true that scientists have often been dogmatic and elitist. It is true that we have often allowed the white-coated, advertising image to represent us—"Scientists say that Brand X cures bunions ten times faster than…" We have not fought it adequately because we derive benefits from appearing as a new priesthood. It is also true that faceless and bureaucratic state power intrudes more and more into our lives and removes choices that should belong to individuals and communities. I can understand that school curricula, imposed from above and without local input, might be seen as one more insult on all these grounds. But the culprit is not, and cannot be, evolution or any other fact of the natural world. Identify and fight our legitimate enemies by all means, but we are not among them.

I am sad because the practical result of this brouhaha will not be expanded coverage to include creationism (that would also make me sad), but the reduction or excision of evolution from high school curricula. Evolution is one of the half dozen "great ideas" developed by science. It speaks to the profound issues of genealogy that fascinate all of us—the "roots" phenomenon writ large. Where did we come from? Where did life arise? How did it develop? How are organisms related? It forces us to think, ponder, and wonder. Shall we deprive millions of this knowledge and once again teach biology as a set of dull and unconnected facts, without the thread that weaves diverse material into a supple unity?

But most of all I am saddened by a trend I am just beginning to discern among my colleagues. I sense that some now wish to mute the healthy debate about theory that has brought new life to evolutionary biology. It provides grist for creationist mills, they say, even if only by distortion. Perhaps we should lie low and rally around the flag of strict Darwinism, at least for the moment—a kind of old-time religion on our part.

But we should borrow another metaphor and recognize that we too have to tread a straight and narrow path, surrounded by roads to perdition. For if we ever begin to suppress our search to understand nature, to quench our own intellectual excitement in a misguided effort to present a united front where it does not and should not exist, then we are truly lost.

[ Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory," May 1981; from Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes, New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1994, pp. 253-262. ]







(in reply to bounty44)
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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 7/17/2017 7:15:03 PM   
bounty44


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dear comrades, go back and read, or re-read everything ive posted in this thread. there are NO FACTS showing evolution to be true.

it's a godless faith system.

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