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[Poll]

Are cakes art?

No: thinking that they are is really gay

35% (10)

No: of course they're not

3% (1)

Don't know

0% (0)

Don't care

17% (5)

Maybe if they're really good cakes

7% (2)

Yes: anybody who can charge for a made to order cake is an artisan

28% (8)

Yes: if Haring and Koon's smug whiffle is art, so's a fancy cake

7% (2)

Total Votes : 28

(last vote on : 9/27/2017 6:35:01 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

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RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 4:06:23 AM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
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Greta said

quote:

I believe the US has these "Black Only University" thingy too now or is it called "Black College". That's the way. Just help yourself within your community, pool together your strength and rise up.

Black only schools, in Louisiana, were threatened with closing if they didn't desegregate. I was offered a full scholarship to go there, but my father wouldn't let me attend. He said it was too dangerous. I think whomever was pushing the desegregation issue backed off eventually. It was a long time ago, my memory is foggy.

(in reply to Greta75)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 4:10:45 AM

Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Greta said
quote:

I believe the US has these "Black Only University" thingy too now or is it called "Black College". That's the way. Just help yourself within your community, pool together your strength and rise up.

Black only schools, in Louisiana, were threatened with closing if they didn't desegregate. I was offered a full scholarship to go there, but my father wouldn't let me attend. He said it was too dangerous. I think whomever was pushing the desegregation issue backed off eventually. It was a long time ago, my memory is foggy.

Good, they stand their ground! I see nothing wrong with "black only" colleges or Universities.

I hope they work very hard on becoming leaders in education and produce amazing results.

And become worldly recognised as some of the top producing universities or colleges in the world.

This is how, they will stop being "looked down" upon, once they get international recognition for being brilliant in education. WITHOUT any white people's help. This will seriously make them look very good and become very respected around the world.

All it needs is one extremely good black college and they are set! It's really good especially for minorities who are seen as the "struggling" community to show the world what they can do.

Being "black only" will really show case their capability as what their race can do.

They have made it in the Sports industry, and the music industry. Next is education! Step by Step!

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 4:28:11 AM

Posts: 3623
Status: offline

The only reason there are historically black colleges is because black people weren't allowed into the other colleges.

(in reply to Greta75)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 5:31:29 AM

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Joined: 11/1/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

But you are dealing with a religion that believes being gay is an abomination. So if we were going to allow freedom of religion, and this is a non-essential item, why should they be force to bake a cake that celebrates something that goes against their religious beliefs?

It's like forcing a Muslim to make a Bacon Cake for my wedding. It's like going a Jewish Baker and asking the poor guy to make a cake with "Hail Hitler" in it!

Are we gonna convict the Muslim or the Jew for refusing those customers?

Come on! It's ridiculous! It's their right when it trespass their religious beliefs.

Plus for gawd's sake gay people! Don't go to a Christian Baker!

greta, that just runs contrary to the comrades' notion that all social "problems" require government intervention.

(in reply to Greta75)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 6:34:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
greta, that just runs contrary to the comrades' notion that all social "problems" require government intervention.

LOL... so the southern states just would have naturally desegregated all on their own?
Slave owners would have given up having slaves?

(in reply to bounty44)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 7:18:08 AM

JVoV

Posts: 3229
Joined: 3/9/2015
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

Greta is right that some cakes can be real artworks. But some are just cakes.

Painting a wall doesn't just make if art, but there is always the potential.

So you're taking the line that a cake maker refusing to provide two homosexuals with a wedding cake proves that he's a proper artist, because artistry is defined by elitism and excluding people?

(I do like a couple of Greta's photos, though.)

I believe I was clear enough in what I said that there's no need for you to distort it. That's really annoying.

(in reply to WhoreMods)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 7:23:46 AM

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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigjb62
Here are a few more questions that should have been included in your pole:
1. If a Muslim bakery refused to make an art cake for a gay wedding, would they be persecuted the way Christian bakery's are for refusing for the same reasons?
2. Are Christian's the only one's who sell art cakes?
3. Are Christian bakeries who sell art cakes selling something essential that can only be bought there?

1. It's tough to call, but I would hope things are applied evenly.
2. No.
3. Well, let's see, (and this is an extreme hypothetical), if Picasso worked at one bakery, and only one bakery, one would not be able to buy a Picasso cake anywhere else. If a bakery gets a reputation for it's cakes, one would not be able to buy one of their cakes anywhere else. One could buy an "art cake" somewhere else. but it wouldn't be one of theirs.

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(in reply to bigjb62)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 7:35:36 AM

JVoV

Posts: 3229
Joined: 3/9/2015
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
So you're taking the line that a cake maker refusing to provide two homosexuals with a wedding cake proves that he's a proper artist, because artistry is defined by elitism and excluding people?

(I do like a couple of Greta's photos, though.)

I bet if a cake shop refuse to bake a cake for nazis in a nazi theme wedding that praise Hitler and celebrate the genocide of jews. Barely anybody would defend them.

I think when it comes to emotional bias. People just react because they are sympathetic to gay people.

But you are dealing with a religion that believes being gay is an abomination. So if we were going to allow freedom of religion, and this is a non-essential item, why should they be force to bake a cake that celebrates something that goes against their religious beliefs?

It's like forcing a Muslim to make a Bacon Cake for my wedding. It's like going a Jewish Baker and asking the poor guy to make a cake with "Hail Hitler" in it!

Are we gonna convict the Muslim or the Jew for refusing those customers?

Come on! It's ridiculous! It's their right when it trespass their religious beliefs.

Plus for gawd's sake gay people! Don't go to a Christian Baker!

This is going to end up being about much more than cakes. And there are still Christian-owned bakeries willing to make gay wedding cakes, which makes it hard to believe it has anything to do with religion at all.

(in reply to Greta75)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 7:38:43 AM

Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

Greta is right that some cakes can be real artworks. But some are just cakes.

Painting a wall doesn't just make if art, but there is always the potential.

So you're taking the line that a cake maker refusing to provide two homosexuals with a wedding cake proves that he's a proper artist, because artistry is defined by elitism and excluding people?

(I do like a couple of Greta's photos, though.)

I believe I was clear enough in what I said that there's no need for you to distort it. That's really annoying.

It was supposed to be a joke, but whatever.

_____________________________

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RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 7:48:54 AM

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Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
This is going to end up being about much more than cakes. And there are still Christian-owned bakeries willing to make gay wedding cakes, which makes it hard to believe it has anything to do with religion at all.

Well, with Christianity, there is Fundies and then there is like Christians who just refer to themselves as Christians, but they don't pray at all, or attend church. Just identify as one, because they do believe the Christian God exist, but they just don't believe it's necessary to go to Church or Pray at all. It's the marketing. Some truly believe that all they gotta do ask for forgiveness right before they die, and all is gonna be fine. So the rest of life, no need to do anything "Christian-ish", like pray or attend church.

So yea, it depends on how Fundie the Christian is. But end of the day, I think on a certain level, gay people gotta realise that, fundamentally, Christianity believes Marriage is between men and women only and there is a chance that their gay marriage will make a Christian person very uncomfortable, they may feel like they are going against their personal core values.

Because of their deep religious beliefs.

I mean, if you got the hippie Jesus Christians, they will embrace everything. And just believe Jesus is pure love for all. And embrace gay marriage too.

But I have the feeling that the Jesus described in the bible will not support gay marriage though.

(in reply to JVoV)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 7:56:34 AM

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

For the poll, I did answer that cakes can be art. If the cakes weren't pretty, the guy wouldn't be in business long. That doesn't change the fact that this is a case of discrimination. I'm figuring the 'art' angle is only being used because a similar case has already been lost based on the business/refuse services on religious premise aspect.

This was interesting though:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
I bet if a cake shop refuse to bake a cake for nazis in a nazi theme wedding that praise Hitler and celebrate the genocide of jews. Barely anybody would defend them.

I think when it comes to emotional bias. People just react because they are sympathetic to gay people.

But you are dealing with a religion that believes being gay is an abomination. So if we were going to allow freedom of religion, and this is a non-essential item, why should they be force to bake a cake that celebrates something that goes against their religious beliefs?

It's like forcing a Muslim to make a Bacon Cake for my wedding. It's like going a Jewish Baker and asking the poor guy to make a cake with "Hail Hitler" in it!

Are we gonna convict the Muslim or the Jew for refusing those customers?

Come on! It's ridiculous! It's their right when it trespass their religious beliefs.

Plus for gawd's sake gay people! Don't go to a Christian Baker!

What you're missing here is that there is a difference between products not available and products that are available, but not available to ALL customers. The latter is when it is discriminatory.

For example, a bakery that does not have the option to have bacon included in a cake, doesn't have that option available to ANYONE. If the bakery just plain doesn't make that kind of cake, no matter who orders it, there's no discrimination. Same with a cake that would be Nazi themed. The shop doesn't make cakes with that design.

However, this case is based on refusal of service because of WHO was ordering the cake. Not because of types of cakes they didn't sell or ingredients they didn't offer. The reason the baker didn't want to provide the service was based solely on sexual orientation of the customers, which makes the business practice discriminatory.

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(in reply to Greta75)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 7:56:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
3. Well, let's see, (and this is an extreme hypothetical), if Picasso worked at one bakery, and only one bakery, one would not be able to buy a Picasso cake anywhere else. If a bakery gets a reputation for it's cakes, one would not be able to buy one of their cakes anywhere else. One could buy an "art cake" somewhere else. but it wouldn't be one of theirs.

As an artist though, usually most artist pick and choose their jobs that they accept that suit their artistic inclination.

Most artists won't be dictated on what they should or should not paint. If they are true artist with integrity. They need to go with their own flow.

Imagine demanding Picasso paint a specific way you want him to. Or imagine if Picasso is against gay marriage, and then this couple demand that Picasso paint their wedding and he absolutely refuse to do it, because it's against his beliefs. And this couple reported him to authorities. He would probably be the artist who will go to jail for his beliefs. Rather than yield to this couple's demands.

And this couple want him specifically because he is the best. So they try to force him to paint them by causing him to be jailed.

Who are the bad guys here?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 8:07:09 AM

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Joined: 5/6/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
3. Well, let's see, (and this is an extreme hypothetical), if Picasso worked at one bakery, and only one bakery, one would not be able to buy a Picasso cake anywhere else. If a bakery gets a reputation for it's cakes, one would not be able to buy one of their cakes anywhere else. One could buy an "art cake" somewhere else. but it wouldn't be one of theirs.

As an artist though, usually most artist pick and choose their jobs that they accept that suit their artistic inclination.

Most artists won't be dictated on what they should or should not paint. If they are true artist with integrity. They need to go with their own flow.

Imagine demanding Picasso paint a specific way you want him to. Or imagine if Picasso is against gay marriage, and then this couple demand that Picasso paint their wedding and he absolutely refuse to do it, because it's against his beliefs. And this couple reported him to authorities. He would probably be the artist who will go to jail for his beliefs. Rather than yield to this couple's demands.

And this couple want him specifically because he is the best. So they try to force him to paint them by causing him to be jailed.

Who are the bad guys here?

Fine artists who have a big enough name can do that, yes. We're talking about commercial art here, though, which inevitably involves compromises if the artist doesn't want to be blacklisted and end up having to get another job. Names like Jack Kirby (who, notoriously, would happily do ridiculous nonsense to pay the bills in between creating masterpieces on a work for hire basis) seem a bit more relevant to this discussion than Picasso's.

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RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 10:14:13 AM

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It's easy to make Greta's examples salient. In the case of the jewish bakery, could they refuse a "happy 50th" cake purely because they know it's going to an anti-semite?

(in reply to Greta75)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 10:37:41 AM

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And could they refuse to make a fluffy sponge cake because they're supposed to stick to unleavened stuff with no milk in it to stay kosher?
They certainly couldn't make a cheesecake, put it that way...

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RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 10:38:02 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Greta said
quote:

I believe the US has these "Black Only University" thingy too now or is it called "Black College". That's the way. Just help yourself within your community, pool together your strength and rise up.

Black only schools, in Louisiana, were threatened with closing if they didn't desegregate. I was offered a full scholarship to go there, but my father wouldn't let me attend. He said it was too dangerous. I think whomever was pushing the desegregation issue backed off eventually. It was a long time ago, my memory is foggy.

Traditionally Black Colleges , I graduated from one. I was only threatened with violence 5 time.

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(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 10:39:23 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Greta said
quote:

I believe the US has these "Black Only University" thingy too now or is it called "Black College". That's the way. Just help yourself within your community, pool together your strength and rise up.

Black only schools, in Louisiana, were threatened with closing if they didn't desegregate. I was offered a full scholarship to go there, but my father wouldn't let me attend. He said it was too dangerous. I think whomever was pushing the desegregation issue backed off eventually. It was a long time ago, my memory is foggy.

Good, they stand their ground! I see nothing wrong with "black only" colleges or Universities.

I hope they work very hard on becoming leaders in education and produce amazing results.

And become worldly recognised as some of the top producing universities or colleges in the world.

This is how, they will stop being "looked down" upon, once they get international recognition for being brilliant in education. WITHOUT any white people's help. This will seriously make them look very good and become very respected around the world.

All it needs is one extremely good black college and they are set! It's really good especially for minorities who are seen as the "struggling" community to show the world what they can do.

Being "black only" will really show case their capability as what their race can do.

They have made it in the Sports industry, and the music industry. Next is education! Step by Step!

If white only schools are illegal so are black only schools.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Greta75)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 10:40:58 AM

Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Greta said
quote:

I believe the US has these "Black Only University" thingy too now or is it called "Black College". That's the way. Just help yourself within your community, pool together your strength and rise up.

Black only schools, in Louisiana, were threatened with closing if they didn't desegregate. I was offered a full scholarship to go there, but my father wouldn't let me attend. He said it was too dangerous. I think whomever was pushing the desegregation issue backed off eventually. It was a long time ago, my memory is foggy.

Good, they stand their ground! I see nothing wrong with "black only" colleges or Universities.

I hope they work very hard on becoming leaders in education and produce amazing results.

And become worldly recognised as some of the top producing universities or colleges in the world.

This is how, they will stop being "looked down" upon, once they get international recognition for being brilliant in education. WITHOUT any white people's help. This will seriously make them look very good and become very respected around the world.

All it needs is one extremely good black college and they are set! It's really good especially for minorities who are seen as the "struggling" community to show the world what they can do.

Being "black only" will really show case their capability as what their race can do.

They have made it in the Sports industry, and the music industry. Next is education! Step by Step!

If white only schools are illegal so are black only schools.

So does that mean that the qualification from a spook college you donned blackface to gain shouldn't be recognised by anybody?

_____________________________

On the level and looking for a square deal.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 10:41:22 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
So you're taking the line that a cake maker refusing to provide two homosexuals with a wedding cake proves that he's a proper artist, because artistry is defined by elitism and excluding people?

(I do like a couple of Greta's photos, though.)

I bet if a cake shop refuse to bake a cake for nazis in a nazi theme wedding that praise Hitler and celebrate the genocide of jews. Barely anybody would defend them.

I think when it comes to emotional bias. People just react because they are sympathetic to gay people.

But you are dealing with a religion that believes being gay is an abomination. So if we were going to allow freedom of religion, and this is a non-essential item, why should they be force to bake a cake that celebrates something that goes against their religious beliefs?

It's like forcing a Muslim to make a Bacon Cake for my wedding. It's like going a Jewish Baker and asking the poor guy to make a cake with "Hail Hitler" in it!

Are we gonna convict the Muslim or the Jew for refusing those customers?

Come on! It's ridiculous! It's their right when it trespass their religious beliefs.

Plus for gawd's sake gay people! Don't go to a Christian Baker!

This is going to end up being about much more than cakes. And there are still Christian-owned bakeries willing to make gay wedding cakes, which makes it hard to believe it has anything to do with religion at all.

Religion is personal.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to JVoV)

RE: Are cakes art? - 9/20/2017 10:44:18 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigjb62
Here are a few more questions that should have been included in your pole:
1. If a Muslim bakery refused to make an art cake for a gay wedding, would they be persecuted the way Christian bakery's are for refusing for the same reasons?
2. Are Christian's the only one's who sell art cakes?
3. Are Christian bakeries who sell art cakes selling something essential that can only be bought there?

1. It's tough to call, but I would hope things are applied evenly.
2. No.
3. Well, let's see, (and this is an extreme hypothetical), if Picasso worked at one bakery, and only one bakery, one would not be able to buy a Picasso cake anywhere else. If a bakery gets a reputation for it's cakes, one would not be able to buy one of their cakes anywhere else. One could buy an "art cake" somewhere else. but it wouldn't be one of theirs.

No they are not, many Muslim bakeries will not make cakes for gay weddings but nobody goes after them.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

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