quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

We're all supposed to understand everyone's perspective now. Our lives are all intertwined and affect each other... haven't you been paying attention?

Horseshit.

No... seriously. Evidently you're not Enlightened.

If say I'm a touch more enlightened than you are. What you are missing is that there is a difference between understanding and respect.

People have to earn my respect. Understanding is easier. I mean... i can understand your position (about whatever the topic may be at any point in time). That doesn't mean i respect you as a person.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

We're all supposed to understand everyone's perspective now. Our lives are all intertwined and affect each other... haven't you been paying attention?

Horseshit.

No... seriously. Evidently you're not Enlightened.

If say I'm a touch more enlightened than you are. What you are missing is that there is a difference between understanding and respect.

People have to earn my respect. Understanding is easier. I mean... i can understand your position (about whatever the topic may be at any point in time). That doesn't mean i respect you as a person.

Yeah, you don't understand. However, I really have no desire to explain it you. Due to how you treat people in these forums, this thread being a good example, I have no interest in discussing anything with you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Laura Antoniou light heatedly calls us the 'middle guard.'

Not exactly, it's "Middle-Aged Guard". She even sells pins

http://shop.lantoniou.com/Middle-Aged-Guard-Pin-MAG-Pin.htm

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Laura Antoniou light heatedly calls us the 'middle guard.' I think you put a good perspective on how intensity is irrelevant to the physical act and more a matter of perception. Nicely said. I use extreme examples like fluffy vs bloody to put a focus on the scope of it all, because BDSM includes it all.

It's never easy in that regard. If we were doing the scale of one to ten thing, I'd probably call myself a seven or an eight, depending on what thing I'm thinking of. The exception on this is the wax thing, which is way lower on the scale. Fire, when done right, doesn't really 'hurt.' Neither does cupping. Those are my fluffy type of examples.

quote:

I love the 'Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang' comment. My house (home) is called the Shady Rest. So I can see an old west Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang scene somewhere in the near future... thanks for the idea. Sounds like fun.

Ha! I'm glad. If you turn it into something, it might be a fun thread, too. Sometimes, neat ideas come from the most obscure thing.

I thought some of this was cool, so if you don't mind...

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
We probably should give a fuck about what science is saying about our social behavior. Ignoring bad science is how the DSM classified homosexuality as a mental disorder instead of a sexual preference for so long. And that lead to legislation and imprisonment homosexuals.

Are we really considering this "science" though? Ask a different thousand people (or whatever this research/poll number of participants was based on) and depending how the questions were phrased, there could be a different answer next week.

A part of what led to legislation against homosexuals also had a lot to do with fear and prejudice. How many years did religion play a part of that? I don't know how much of that was really science.

quote:

Albeit this is the reverse of that, it still seems like inaccurate science... ramifications seem more likely to end up with a spanking bench at the 9th hole and a cross on the clubhouse. Its damn funny how in less than 5 years ago (2013), the DSM-4 classified sadomasochism as a mental disorder. Then the DSM-5 reclassified it. ...and now a sociologists armed with study data says it is a leisure activity instead of a mental illness. That is an amazing leap in perception.

I don't golf, but wouldn't that kind of thing be funny as hell? A bag of clubs and a bag of *clubs*.

To be a bit more serious, the BDSM thing as a mental disorder was at least partially crap science, too. No other logical explanation, like it might just be fun to do kinky stuff, hey! Not 'normal'. As if it couldn't possibly be something but a deviance because people get off on endorphins.

quote:

Lets play "so what if." What if BDSM becomes even more accepted and some 50 shades tourists go to a BDSM convention and witnesses 'Team Fluffy' doing a barbed wire flogging in a bloodsport workshop? Or an elctro-play demo with 6 truck batteries, jumper cables, a boy chained to a cyclone fence with jumper cables and sparks flying everywhere? Or a resistance scene? What if the blood, bruising and sparks blow their mind, crushing the 50 shades of ice-cream & unicorns perception of BDSM they had. When tourist feel safe enough to come into our inner sanctum and our conventions to see the wilder side of BDSM, I am concerned it scare them into taking action.

I suppose I'd have to ask you how you are using the term "taking action"? Do you mean said tourists are going to decide that we're sick again and shut us down? Do you mean it in the sense that they are going to ignore the 'don't try this at home' warnings and charge into the 'that looks cool, let's try it' philosophy? That our DM's at cons can't handle scene interruptions or the lighter players can't hack the idea that the door to the dungeon swings both ways? What are we talking about here, exactly?

quote:

Our society (and military) went from "don't ask don't tell" to "we accept you, it's safe to come out" to "now that you're out, you're fired because you're gay." And all they did was love people of the same gender, their behavior didn't include torturing people. I can't imagine how BDSM will be received once it is seen as anything other than 50 Shades of fluff... that whole "leisure activity" thing might fly out the window.

OK. This part was why I wanted to comment on this particular quote. I don't consider myself an expert in this area. Just my personal experience.

To really discuss this, we have to separate society from the military, and when I say military, we have to talk about the UCMJ. In addition, we have to talk about three categories of people. The LGBT community, poly people, and kinky people. (Yes, I know there is overlap there, but work with me.)

When we were talking about the 'don't ask, don't tell' days, all of this stuff was under the same umbrella. Don't announce to the COC (Chain of Command) what you were doing in the bedroom, and you could fly under the radar. Most people aren't that familiar that DADT applied to poly, kinky, and S/m people. It does.

When people with a non-het sexual orientation were allowed to openly serve in the military, (basically when DADT was rescinded) that's when the three categories of people weren't seen as parallel anymore. Gay folks can serve openly at this time. Consensual poly is not a valid concept to Uncle Sam. Neither is BDSM. What consenting adults choose to do is still illegal under the UCMJ as far as poly and kink go. As a generalization, poly is still considered adultery, which is a court martial offense. Uncle Sam does not recognize consensual kink. It is abuse or domestic violence, depending on the relationship status between the parties.

This is one of the reasons that 'outing' is still such a big deal in the military.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I can't imagine how BDSM will be received once it is seen as anything other than 50 Shades of fluff... that whole "leisure activity" thing might fly out the window.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloverodella

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I can't imagine how BDSM will be received once it is seen as anything other than 50 Shades of fluff... that whole "leisure activity" thing might fly out the window.

But wouldn't it be nice if kinksters who wanted to go to events, parties, etc. could do so without fear of the social stigma of being outed can bring? Or if someone into the extreme stuff was outed, it wouldn't violate a company "respectability clause" or whatever it's called, that can tank an executive's career?

BDSM may be considered a "leisure activity" to social scientists, but that doesn't mean a public display of golfing is akin to public displays of sex. There is still stigma around sex, i.e.: if a woman engages in lots of casual sex, her rapist is much more likely to go free.

It will be a long time before BDSM is considered "normal", regardless of the sociologists' classifications.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloverodella

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I can't imagine how BDSM will be received once it is seen as anything other than 50 Shades of fluff... that whole "leisure activity" thing might fly out the window.

But wouldn't it be nice if kinksters who wanted to go to events, parties, etc. could do so without fear of the social stigma of being outed can bring? Or if someone into the extreme stuff was outed, it wouldn't violate a company "respectability clause" or whatever it's called, that can tank an executive's career?

BDSM may be considered a "leisure activity" to social scientists, but that doesn't mean a public display of golfing is akin to public displays of sex. There is still stigma around sex, i.e.: if a woman engages in lots of casual sex, her rapist is much more likely to go free.

It will be a long time before BDSM is considered "normal", regardless of the sociologists' classifications.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
San Diego Six

You're absolutely right - regardless of what the sociologists say....there will still be stigma, firings and arrests.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
San Diego Six

You're absolutely right - regardless of what the sociologists say....there will still be stigma, firings and arrests.

This is really sad and unfortunate. Especially when I have the impression that California as a whole, is quite open about BDSM.

quote:



You're absolutely right - regardless of what the sociologists say....there will still be stigma, firings and arrests.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Laura Antoniou light heatedly calls us the 'middle guard.' I think you put a good perspective on how intensity is irrelevant to the physical act and more a matter of perception. Nicely said. I use extreme examples like fluffy vs bloody to put a focus on the scope of it all, because BDSM includes it all.

It's never easy in that regard. If we were doing the scale of one to ten thing, I'd probably call myself a seven or an eight, depending on what thing I'm thinking of. The exception on this is the wax thing, which is way lower on the scale. Fire, when done right, doesn't really 'hurt.' Neither does cupping. Those are my fluffy type of examples.

quote:

I love the 'Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang' comment. My house (home) is called the Shady Rest. So I can see an old west Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang scene somewhere in the near future... thanks for the idea. Sounds like fun.

Ha! I'm glad. If you turn it into something, it might be a fun thread, too. Sometimes, neat ideas come from the most obscure thing.

I thought some of this was cool, so if you don't mind...

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
We probably should give a fuck about what science is saying about our social behavior. Ignoring bad science is how the DSM classified homosexuality as a mental disorder instead of a sexual preference for so long. And that lead to legislation and imprisonment homosexuals.

Are we really considering this "science" though? Ask a different thousand people (or whatever this research/poll number of participants was based on) and depending how the questions were phrased, there could be a different answer next week.

A part of what led to legislation against homosexuals also had a lot to do with fear and prejudice. How many years did religion play a part of that? I don't know how much of that was really science.

quote:

Albeit this is the reverse of that, it still seems like inaccurate science... ramifications seem more likely to end up with a spanking bench at the 9th hole and a cross on the clubhouse. Its damn funny how in less than 5 years ago (2013), the DSM-4 classified sadomasochism as a mental disorder. Then the DSM-5 reclassified it. ...and now a sociologists armed with study data says it is a leisure activity instead of a mental illness. That is an amazing leap in perception.

I don't golf, but wouldn't that kind of thing be funny as hell? A bag of clubs and a bag of *clubs*.

To be a bit more serious, the BDSM thing as a mental disorder was at least partially crap science, too. No other logical explanation, like it might just be fun to do kinky stuff, hey! Not 'normal'. As if it couldn't possibly be something but a deviance because people get off on endorphins.

quote:

Lets play "so what if." What if BDSM becomes even more accepted and some 50 shades tourists go to a BDSM convention and witnesses 'Team Fluffy' doing a barbed wire flogging in a bloodsport workshop? Or an elctro-play demo with 6 truck batteries, jumper cables, a boy chained to a cyclone fence with jumper cables and sparks flying everywhere? Or a resistance scene? What if the blood, bruising and sparks blow their mind, crushing the 50 shades of ice-cream & unicorns perception of BDSM they had. When tourist feel safe enough to come into our inner sanctum and our conventions to see the wilder side of BDSM, I am concerned it scare them into taking action.

I suppose I'd have to ask you how you are using the term "taking action"? Do you mean said tourists are going to decide that we're sick again and shut us down? Do you mean it in the sense that they are going to ignore the 'don't try this at home' warnings and charge into the 'that looks cool, let's try it' philosophy? That our DM's at cons can't handle scene interruptions or the lighter players can't hack the idea that the door to the dungeon swings both ways? What are we talking about here, exactly?

quote:

Our society (and military) went from "don't ask don't tell" to "we accept you, it's safe to come out" to "now that you're out, you're fired because you're gay." And all they did was love people of the same gender, their behavior didn't include torturing people. I can't imagine how BDSM will be received once it is seen as anything other than 50 Shades of fluff... that whole "leisure activity" thing might fly out the window.

OK. This part was why I wanted to comment on this particular quote. I don't consider myself an expert in this area. Just my personal experience.

To really discuss this, we have to separate society from the military, and when I say military, we have to talk about the UCMJ. In addition, we have to talk about three categories of people. The LGBT community, poly people, and kinky people. (Yes, I know there is overlap there, but work with me.)

When we were talking about the 'don't ask, don't tell' days, all of this stuff was under the same umbrella. Don't announce to the COC (Chain of Command) what you were doing in the bedroom, and you could fly under the radar. Most people aren't that familiar that DADT applied to poly, kinky, and S/m people. It does.

When people with a non-het sexual orientation were allowed to openly serve in the military, (basically when DADT was rescinded) that's when the three categories of people weren't seen as parallel anymore. Gay folks can serve openly at this time. Consensual poly is not a valid concept to Uncle Sam. Neither is BDSM. What consenting adults choose to do is still illegal under the UCMJ as far as poly and kink go. As a generalization, poly is still considered adultery, which is a court martial offense. Uncle Sam does not recognize consensual kink. It is abuse or domestic violence, depending on the relationship status between the parties.

This is one of the reasons that 'outing' is still such a big deal in the military.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
San Diego Six

You're absolutely right - regardless of what the sociologists say....there will still be stigma, firings and arrests.

This is really sad and unfortunate. Especially when I have the impression that California as a whole, is quite open about BDSM.

Google The Spanner Case.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Somewhere on the east coat (Salem, Massachusetts?) there was similar incident. Undercover vice went to a dungeon party and arrested a bunch of people for assault and other crimes. The "victims" who were "assaulted" with floggers etc, refused to press charges. The prosecutor pressed charges anyway based on police (witness) testimony.

When a sociologist's study claims an activity, like consensual flogging which can lead to felony assault charges, is a leisure activity akin to golf or swimming... I think that is fucked up science.

(And thanks for the San Diego Six link)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
San Diego Six

You're absolutely right - regardless of what the sociologists say....there will still be stigma, firings and arrests.

This is really sad and unfortunate. Especially when I have the impression that California as a whole, is quite open about BDSM.

Google The Spanner Case.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Somewhere on the east coat (Salem, Massachusetts?) there was similar incident. Undercover vice went to a dungeon party and arrested a bunch of people for assault and other crimes. The "victims" who were "assaulted" with floggers etc, refused to press charges. The prosecutor pressed charges anyway based on police (witness) testimony.

When a sociologist's study claims an activity, like consensual flogging which can lead to felony assault charges, is a leisure activity akin to golf or swimming... I think that is fucked up science.

(And thanks for the San Diego Six link)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
San Diego Six

You're absolutely right - regardless of what the sociologists say....there will still be stigma, firings and arrests.

This is really sad and unfortunate. Especially when I have the impression that California as a whole, is quite open about BDSM.

Google The Spanner Case.

The really appalling thing is that the people accused in these stupid and pointless wastes of public money gain criminal records over this nonsense. I think one of the Spanner defendants actually spent a few months inside.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Operation Spanner and the resulting case that ruled "consent was not a valid legal defense for doing bodily harm" in the UK was insane. When I see people take things like my OP with a carefree attitude, ignoring the dangers of tourists getting injected into to the front lines of BDSM, it concerns me. How far in the sand you have to have your head buried to say shit like it "doesn't matter what other people think" or "everyone should interpret it the way they want" or drop personal troll bait replies. I can only imagine they have no clue about the social, political and legal war BDSM has been through. They must be ignorant to the fact people are imprisoned, lives are ruined, lives were lost and all of that can happen to them if some horny 50 shades policeman's wife or politician's wife shows up at their next BDSM convention and gets shocked by the lack of ice-cream rainbows & unicorns. Consent doesn't have a history of holding up in a court of law in the UK or the USA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptR

Somewhere in the afterlife there is a medieval torturer saying. "Fucking amateur, "The Tree" has deeper roots than you ever imagined!" ;).
Not discounting your experience level. Just saying it's different for everyone as you've stated and homage may be due beyond the leather scene. None of this we do is new. The Romans did it and sexual "deviancy" was in Vogue before them. The only thing "new" about this lifestyle is the technology.