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RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/17/2017 2:33:17 AM   
Shandirra


Posts: 196
Joined: 11/28/2007
From: NYC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LTE
In the real world the old saying "fortune favors the bold" brings us success with women.



Your approach.


Reality.


_____________________________

Life shouldn't be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly shouting..."Wow! What a ride!

(in reply to LTE)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/17/2017 3:00:03 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32561
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So, are you saying that The Mark has policy reflective of your statement, Artie?



_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to LTE)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/17/2017 8:29:17 AM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome
Just in case you think that you are educating us here, we all understand the premise that "yes" can be undermined by your ability to consent or by coercion, just as "no" can mean entirely the opposite in the context of a D/s scene or relationship.

That does not mean that reasonable, thoughtful people with a care for other people and themselves should not start from the position of seeking an enthusiastic "yes" from a person who has the capacity to consent in real time and translating any kind of "no" as an instruction to back off.

Most of us also understand perfectly well that BDSM does not provide a defence in law for any number of actions - assault is still assault in the eyes of the law, however supposedly consensual and someone going through with a sexual act after being told "no" would have a very hard time explaining consensual non-consent to a court room.

The point is that on one hand yes only means yes from a person capable at the time of consenting of giving informed consent, and no only means something else if both parties agree and are very clear about the risks and potential outcomes (RACK and all that).

That does not change the fact that "only yes means yes, and no always means no" is the best way to approach any situation where there has not been any agreement to the contrary. This covers all the vast majority of first encounters and dating, as well as anything in the workplace, even where sexual relations between staff are sanctioned or tolerated.

Finding exceptions only prove the rule. If you are a guy who likes to be able to do anything he wants at any time to a woman, you may well be successful in finding that sort of woman (although as with anything there are always limits). However if you treat people you meet for the first time in this way, you are probably going to end up in a courtroom and rightly so.

I'm never quite sure exactly where you are heading with any of these threads but you seem at least to be implying that men shouldn't always trust it when a woman says yes. If you are then that is probably true - men should be wary and be sure before proceeding. Likewise if you are suggesting that men shouldn't always take no for an answer, all I can say is that there are situations where that is acceptable, but these need to be properly understood and consented to by both parties. This is not news to most people on these Boards.

You have been told on more than one occasion on more than one thread by men whom like that sort of thing that they go out of their way to treat women with respect and only enter into that sort of scene or relationship when they are sure it is what somebody wants. These men seem to be very clear about the consent they require before embarking on their kind of D/s relationship with a woman, and what the limits are.

Some men may have a fantasy about randomly meeting women who resist, say no, fight back or run, but they win the day through sheer persistence, force of personality or actual physical force.

Great fantasy if you are both into it and explicitly agree to it. Abuse, harassment and rape if you aren't.
In principle, I agree with most of what you have said here but would like to touch on a few points.

Such as; “Just in case you think that you are educating us here”, I was just posting a few of my thoughts on “Yes, means yes and no, no” based on the way some have used it and seem to think about. Whether some find it educating or not was not my point.

Another is this; “That does not mean that reasonable, thoughtful people with a care for other people and themselves should not start from the position of seeking an enthusiastic "yes" from a person”

Honestly, I never ever started from a “position of seeking an enthusiastic "yes"” with anyone, even with someone that I might want to have a consensual relationship someday. I always start with the thought; I wonder what I can do or say that will lead to being friends one day. (quite frankly I’m not afraid of the “friend zone”)

Then this; “That does not change the fact that "only yes means yes, and no always means no" is the best way to approach any situation where there has not been any agreement to the contrary.”

That is one of the reasons I don’t like “Yes, means yes and no, no” because many feel as you do, that it is “best way to approach any situation”. Personally, I have my own “Golden Rule”, if you will, and that is; “Do on to others as they want to be done onto” and I have found that to be a better approach to any situation than the “Yes, means yes and no, no” thing.

Also, you bought up fantasy and I have an excellent imagination, which is probably one of the reasons people have trouble with me in these threads, I can instantly create a whole universe around a comment like “Yes, means yes and no, no” and can see all these places where it falls short and like to ask questions about what I've seen but I am also a realist and can quickly and easily see where fantasies cannot be brought into the real world.

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/17/2017 8:42:43 AM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

So, what is the moral to the story, what is the point? If you’re putting all your eggs in one basket and hiding behind “Yes, means yes and no, no”, along with consent and expecting to be saved from the monsters out there in the real world, might I suggest you find something a little more substantial.



The people who have quoted "yes means yes and no means no" have done so as a principle for good behaviour, not as some kind of suit of armour for people to wear to protect them from bad people.

Incidentally it is the basis of the law in most countries. We all know that the mere existence of a law does not mean that it will be adhered to but that is hardly the point.

A nuanced understanding of the principle that "yes means yes and no means no" (including a proper appreciation of what constitutes capacity) is certainly helpful to make people think about being very sure before they proceed so that they don't damage other human beings or put themselves at risk of such an accusation. For anyone who says "yes or no" understanding that they need to be clear and unequivocal about there communication is always helpful.

No-one has however suggested that an understanding of the principle or clear communication will deter determined attackers or "monsters".

I think you have just constructed another enormous strawman with which to accuse and deride your fellow posters.

What "something a little more substantial" do you suggest people find to "save them"? I'm intrigued to know. Without that you have merely picked holes in what you suppose to be other people's positions while offering nothing of substance yourself.

Well, I'm only going to touch on this last part. Yes, I agree, I have been woefully slacking in offering alternatives, mainly because I have wanted to hear what others have to say on that subject and after all, I already know what I think about it. I have found that both Greta75 and LadyPact, when she’s not telling how mad she is at me, have offered some excellent advice to all those who will listen.

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/17/2017 8:45:29 AM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Miles, I can sum this all up for you.

IF you have to ask, then the answer is no.

For example:

"Is (insert pronoun) really not interested in me, or is (insert pronoun) being coy?"
"I know the individual is a minor, but they really like me; so is it ok to molest them?"
"Ok so they have hard limits, but they consented to be tied up and they can't 'technologically say no' to their hard limits being violated so is it ok to do so?"
"I know the workplace policy is no fraternization between subordinates, but she smiled at me and wears a tight skirt. She obviously wants me even though I've asked her out a few times already. Should I keep pestering her?"
"I like it when I can push my weight around and they know they can't say no or I'd blacklist them sooo of course they are consenting in a round about way, right?"

Knowing something is wrong, but talking yourself into doing it anyway is called rationalization.
Not even knowing the basic humanitarian rules is either being socially inept or a predator.

Yes Is yes, no IS no - any and most exceptions are either rationalization or predatory.

C(onsensual)N(on)C(onsent) begins with a communication of consent.

Again, if one has to ask; the answer is no.

One thing that you seem to have forgotten is sometimes, when you ask... the answer is yes.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/17/2017 8:50:02 AM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Regarding the risk of predators. There are no sure fire ways of protecting oneself from predators. You can follow all of the BDSM rules of engagement and still find yourself in harms way.

Predators ,are predators because consent means nothing to them or because violating consent is their purpose.

If this isn't obvious, and rationalization comes into play in any way - consider that you might be a predator.

If yes, then go straight to a precinct and have yourself arrested or committed.

If no, then consider seeing someone who can teach you social cues so that you don't inadvertently violate consent.

Otherwise this is probably a no brainer.

I agree, there is no sure fire ways of protecting oneself from predators but as I keep telling you there are a lot of better ways of reducing the chances of it than "depending" on Yes means yes and no, no.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/17/2017 8:52:43 AM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissKatya


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick




Damn...you beat me to it.

**insert drum shot**

I agree “Yes, means yes and no, no” is a dead horse and people should stop trying to get it to get up and dance. ;-)

Look Capt. God-Botherer, just because you are confused doesn't mean anybody else is


This, a thousand times.

It's just not that difficult for the rest of us.

If it is not that "difficult for the rest of us", just why is it so hard for you to just comment on the OP without turning the thread into an insult fest?

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/18/2017 4:16:15 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Miles, I can sum this all up for you.

IF you have to ask, then the answer is no.

For example:

"Is (insert pronoun) really not interested in me, or is (insert pronoun) being coy?"
"I know the individual is a minor, but they really like me; so is it ok to molest them?"
"Ok so they have hard limits, but they consented to be tied up and they can't 'technologically say no' to their hard limits being violated so is it ok to do so?"
"I know the workplace policy is no fraternization between subordinates, but she smiled at me and wears a tight skirt. She obviously wants me even though I've asked her out a few times already. Should I keep pestering her?"
"I like it when I can push my weight around and they know they can't say no or I'd blacklist them sooo of course they are consenting in a round about way, right?"

Knowing something is wrong, but talking yourself into doing it anyway is called rationalization.
Not even knowing the basic humanitarian rules is either being socially inept or a predator.

Yes Is yes, no IS no - any and most exceptions are either rationalization or predatory.

C(onsensual)N(on)C(onsent) begins with a communication of consent.

Again, if one has to ask; the answer is no.





This is an A+ short and concise explanation.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/18/2017 8:33:19 PM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissKatya


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick




Damn...you beat me to it.

**insert drum shot**

I agree “Yes, means yes and no, no” is a dead horse and people should stop trying to get it to get up and dance. ;-)

Look Capt. God-Botherer, just because you are confused doesn't mean anybody else is


This, a thousand times.

It's just not that difficult for the rest of us.

If it is not that "difficult for the rest of us", just why is it so hard for you to just comment on the OP without turning the thread into an insult fest?

You have a point, but you, yourself, have hardly been polite and generous in your treatment of other posters in these threads.

There are always those who turn to insults as their standard first response, but also those who end up there only after finding their own posts belittled. You have attracted ungenerous comments from both, which reflects the tenor of your own responses.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/19/2017 5:04:34 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Miles, I can sum this all up for you.

IF you have to ask, then the answer is no.

For example:

"Is (insert pronoun) really not interested in me, or is (insert pronoun) being coy?"
"I know the individual is a minor, but they really like me; so is it ok to molest them?"
"Ok so they have hard limits, but they consented to be tied up and they can't 'technologically say no' to their hard limits being violated so is it ok to do so?"
"I know the workplace policy is no fraternization between subordinates, but she smiled at me and wears a tight skirt. She obviously wants me even though I've asked her out a few times already. Should I keep pestering her?"
"I like it when I can push my weight around and they know they can't say no or I'd blacklist them sooo of course they are consenting in a round about way, right?"

Knowing something is wrong, but talking yourself into doing it anyway is called rationalization.
Not even knowing the basic humanitarian rules is either being socially inept or a predator.

Yes Is yes, no IS no - any and most exceptions are either rationalization or predatory.

C(onsensual)N(on)C(onsent) begins with a communication of consent.

Again, if one has to ask; the answer is no.

This is an A+ short and concise explanation.

It seems that you as well, in your hurry to "grade" this "explaintion" have over looked the fact that sometimes, when you ask... the answer is yes.

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/19/2017 5:20:58 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissKatya

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick


Damn...you beat me to it.

**insert drum shot**

I agree “Yes, means yes and no, no” is a dead horse and people should stop trying to get it to get up and dance. ;-)

Look Capt. God-Botherer, just because you are confused doesn't mean anybody else is


This, a thousand times.

It's just not that difficult for the rest of us.

If it is not that "difficult for the rest of us", just why is it so hard for you to just comment on the OP without turning the thread into an insult fest?

You have a point, but you, yourself, have hardly been polite and generous in your treatment of other posters in these threads.

There are always those who turn to insults as their standard first response, but also those who end up there only after finding their own posts belittled. You have attracted ungenerous comments from both, which reflects the tenor of your own responses.
Thanx for saying I have a point but I think it would behoove you to check your facts before you accuse someone of something. This a short thread perhaps you can point out all the times I have been impolite and ungenerous or even insulting.

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/19/2017 6:08:58 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
Status: offline
Oh fuck off CG-B, we all know you are a troll, either that or an absolute idiot. Your chice, but either way why anybody bothers with you is beyond me.

_____________________________

Not your average bimbo.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/20/2017 4:18:28 AM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome
You have a point, but you, yourself, have hardly been polite and generous in your treatment of other posters in these threads.
...
Now here is a good example of someone being "polite and generous in their treatment of other posters in these threads".
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
Oh fuck off CG-B, we all know you are a troll, either that or an absolute idiot. Your choice, but either way why anybody bothers with you is beyond me.
Notice, if you will, the inclusion of a well crafted comment on the thread as well.

So I guess my question to you is; why is it that you comment on the few insults that I may have delivered in the course of commenting on the thread and you are mute about comments like this that have no thread value at all and are merely for the purpose of trolling and hijacking the thread?

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/20/2017 12:57:40 PM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

You have a point, but you, yourself, have hardly been polite and generous in your treatment of other posters in these threads.

There are always those who turn to insults as their standard first response, but also those who end up there only after finding their own posts belittled. You have attracted ungenerous comments from both, which reflects the tenor of your own responses.
Thanx for saying I have a point but I think it would behoove you to check your facts before you accuse someone of something. This a short thread perhaps you can point out all the times I have been impolite and ungenerous or even insulting.


You have indeed engaged with people positively in this thread, which is why I said what I said.

Two postings ago, I responded to you on the basis of some of your comments in previous threads, which is why I was only too happy to concede that you had a point about this one.

What goes around, comes around, but I would be the first to concede that not all of your comments are insulting by any means and that the tone of your responses on this thread have been quite different to some of your previous threads.

What's the point of goodwill, if it's only for people you liked or agreed with in the first place?

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/21/2017 8:20:06 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
One thing that you seem to have forgotten is sometimes, when you ask... the answer is yes.

Ummmm..... NO!!

That only applies to those that have a predatory mindset or those that have absolutely no idea of social cues.

If you can't read behavioural cues and have to ask.... the answer is NO.


_____________________________

If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/21/2017 9:20:36 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Regarding the risk of predators. There are no sure fire ways of protecting oneself from predators. You can follow all of the BDSM rules of engagement and still find yourself in harms way.

Predators ,are predators because consent means nothing to them or because violating consent is their purpose.

If this isn't obvious, and rationalization comes into play in any way - consider that you might be a predator.

If yes, then go straight to a precinct and have yourself arrested or committed.

If no, then consider seeing someone who can teach you social cues so that you don't inadvertently violate consent.

Otherwise this is probably a no brainer.

I agree, there is no sure fire ways of protecting oneself from predators but as I keep telling you there are a lot of better ways of reducing the chances of it than "depending" on Yes means yes and no, no.


What better ways? If there is no sure way?

Shit happens. Predators exist.

Risk Aware means one proceeds with the understanding that venturing beyond the fringes of "societal norms" comes with risk.
Communication, Consent (defining the yes and no parameters,) Safe-Calls and other basic protocols are designed to minimize the risk with the knowledge that it cannot mitigate all risk.

I proceed by NOT playing games, my yes means yes and my no means just that.

Now, that said, I know people play games. I understand that courtship can be a dance of sorts and the hunt and Chase has a bit of blurred boundaries. Body language, inflection, eye contact can all have a voice in the overall courtship ritual and are a form of communication; BUT, IF someone you are interested in communicates NO, well? No means no. This is as much to protect the one pursuing as it is to protect the pursued.

ETA These are my views and how I perceive things; intended for discussion purposes. Take what you can use, leave the rest.


< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 12/21/2017 10:19:51 AM >

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/21/2017 3:34:22 PM   
Shandirra


Posts: 196
Joined: 11/28/2007
From: NYC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Ummmm..... NO!!
That only applies to those that have a predatory mindset or those that have absolutely no idea of social cues.
If you can't read behavioural cues and have to ask.... the answer is NO.


This. ^

The only exceptions are mental, emotional and/or physical incapacity to competently consent. Then the answer is NO!, every single time, even if they say YES.

Now... Can we let these dead horses about consent die off, finally???

_____________________________

Life shouldn't be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly shouting..."Wow! What a ride!

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/21/2017 4:08:17 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
FR

Just as a quick q: If a woman keeps coming up to a bloke saying 'Yes' to him repeatedly, is he obliged to have sex with her?

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to Shandirra)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/21/2017 4:30:25 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Just as a quick q: If a woman keeps coming up to a bloke saying 'Yes' to him repeatedly, is he obliged to have sex with her?

Yes

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/22/2017 1:52:00 AM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Just as a quick q: If a woman keeps coming up to a bloke saying 'Yes' to him repeatedly, is he obliged to have sex with her?

Yes


Joking aside, there have only been two women in my life who persistently said yes when I was saying no. I liked both of them, was close to both of them and it happened at the same time (i.e. at the same point in my life - it wasn't an offer of a fantasy threesome).

I am ashamed to say that in both cases the fact that I said no was not entirely respected by either party. Ashamed because I have always thought that I should have communicated better and that by communicating better I might still have some kind of relationship with them. I was in a fairly vulnerable place in my life and needed friends rather than sexual or romantic partners. Both women were fully aware of that.

I eventually consented to a limited level of intimacy with one of them, which I then stopped. This then went badly wrong when I did eventually meet someone. The second one I had to cut off all communication with to the extent that I didn't tell her when I moved where I was going.

The relevant point for this thread is how uncomfortable and how difficult I felt when dealing with these situations, not because I felt directly threatened but because I didn't want to hurt or offend either of them, and our close friendship created a certain sense of obligation. I know it shouldn't have but I'm just being honest. I should also point out that at no point was I in physical danger and neither woman had any work-based authority over me.

If I could feel the way I did in a situation with no physical threat, including feeling so conflicted about my messages being ignored by two people who knew I was not in a good place, I have every sympathy with women who have to deal with far more directly with overly assertive male advances from people they do and don't know.

When some men suggest that they should be given a free pass (usually under the banner of getting the signals mixed up) my response is that they are being actively disingenuous or they need to learn to be 100% more aware and careful.

Complacency is not a defence or an excuse when issues of consent and unwanted advances are so much in the public eye and so much part of everyday conversation at the moment. Not that complacency was ever an excuse for poor or abusive behaviour.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 40
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