quote: In principle, I agree with most of what you have said here but would like to touch on a few points.
Just in case you think that you are educating us here, we all understand the premise that "yes" can be undermined by your ability to consent or by coercion, just as "no" can mean entirely the opposite in the context of a D/s scene or relationship.
That does not mean that reasonable, thoughtful people with a care for other people and themselves should not start from the position of seeking an enthusiastic "yes" from a person who has the capacity to consent in real time and translating any kind of "no" as an instruction to back off.
Most of us also understand perfectly well that BDSM does not provide a defence in law for any number of actions - assault is still assault in the eyes of the law, however supposedly consensual and someone going through with a sexual act after being told "no" would have a very hard time explaining consensual non-consent to a court room.
The point is that on one hand yes only means yes from a person capable at the time of consenting of giving informed consent, and no only means something else if both parties agree and are very clear about the risks and potential outcomes (RACK and all that).
That does not change the fact that "only yes means yes, and no always means no" is the best way to approach any situation where there has not been any agreement to the contrary. This covers all the vast majority of first encounters and dating, as well as anything in the workplace, even where sexual relations between staff are sanctioned or tolerated.
Finding exceptions only prove the rule. If you are a guy who likes to be able to do anything he wants at any time to a woman, you may well be successful in finding that sort of woman (although as with anything there are always limits). However if you treat people you meet for the first time in this way, you are probably going to end up in a courtroom and rightly so.
I'm never quite sure exactly where you are heading with any of these threads but you seem at least to be implying that men shouldn't always trust it when a woman says yes. If you are then that is probably true - men should be wary and be sure before proceeding. Likewise if you are suggesting that men shouldn't always take no for an answer, all I can say is that there are situations where that is acceptable, but these need to be properly understood and consented to by both parties. This is not news to most people on these Boards.
You have been told on more than one occasion on more than one thread by men whom like that sort of thing that they go out of their way to treat women with respect and only enter into that sort of scene or relationship when they are sure it is what somebody wants. These men seem to be very clear about the consent they require before embarking on their kind of D/s relationship with a woman, and what the limits are.
Some men may have a fantasy about randomly meeting women who resist, say no, fight back or run, but they win the day through sheer persistence, force of personality or actual physical force.
Great fantasy if you are both into it and explicitly agree to it. Abuse, harassment and rape if you aren't.
Such as; “Just in case you think that you are educating us here”, I was just posting a few of my thoughts on “Yes, means yes and no, no” based on the way some have used it and seem to think about. Whether some find it educating or not was not my point.
Another is this; “That does not mean that reasonable, thoughtful people with a care for other people and themselves should not start from the position of seeking an enthusiastic "yes" from a person”
Honestly, I never ever started from a “position of seeking an enthusiastic "yes"” with anyone, even with someone that I might want to have a consensual relationship someday. I always start with the thought; I wonder what I can do or say that will lead to being friends one day. (quite frankly I’m not afraid of the “friend zone”)
Then this; “That does not change the fact that "only yes means yes, and no always means no" is the best way to approach any situation where there has not been any agreement to the contrary.”
That is one of the reasons I don’t like “Yes, means yes and no, no” because many feel as you do, that it is “best way to approach any situation”. Personally, I have my own “Golden Rule”, if you will, and that is; “Do on to others as they want to be done onto” and I have found that to be a better approach to any situation than the “Yes, means yes and no, no” thing.
Also, you bought up fantasy and I have an excellent imagination, which is probably one of the reasons people have trouble with me in these threads, I can instantly create a whole universe around a comment like “Yes, means yes and no, no” and can see all these places where it falls short and like to ask questions about what I've seen but I am also a realist and can quickly and easily see where fantasies cannot be brought into the real world.