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RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/22/2017 1:55:42 AM   
longwayhome


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Just as a quick q: If a woman keeps coming up to a bloke saying 'Yes' to him repeatedly, is he obliged to have sex with her?

Yes


Notwithstanding my previous response, as a s-type and a normal human being who wants to be thought of as hugely sexually attractive, that of course is a wonderful fantasy.

I do, of course, have to regularly beat women off with a stick. I bought the stick when so many of the poor deluded mites wouldn't take no for an answer. I mean a guy's got to eat and go to the toilet sometimes.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/22/2017 12:46:43 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


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quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome


quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Just as a quick q: If a woman keeps coming up to a bloke saying 'Yes' to him repeatedly, is he obliged to have sex with her?

Yes


Notwithstanding my previous response, as a s-type and a normal human being who wants to be thought of as hugely sexually attractive, that of course is a wonderful fantasy.

I do, of course, have to regularly beat women off with a stick. I bought the stick when so many of the poor deluded mites wouldn't take no for an answer. I mean a guy's got to eat and go to the toilet sometimes.


It sounds exhausting!

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/22/2017 12:59:31 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome


quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Just as a quick q: If a woman keeps coming up to a bloke saying 'Yes' to him repeatedly, is he obliged to have sex with her?

Yes


Notwithstanding my previous response, as a s-type and a normal human being who wants to be thought of as hugely sexually attractive, that of course is a wonderful fantasy.

I do, of course, have to regularly beat women off with a stick. I bought the stick when so many of the poor deluded mites wouldn't take no for an answer. I mean a guy's got to eat and go to the toilet sometimes.



I can relate to how you felt, re your previous comment. It's not as if I have to beat back women on a regular basis ... and on the rare occasions when a woman has been very pushy ... I've dealt with it pretty bloody badly. It's felt like I've ended up using a sledgehammer when tweezers were indicated. Guilt on my part by the spadeful. A close femdom friend of mine has repeatedly told me that I tend to treat women like delicate flowers and that this is the root of the problem.

Funny really. I have the fantasy of strident, tough women who demand sex ... but in real life, I almost never believe that's how any given woman really is 'underneath'. The aforementioned femdom friend frequently gets pissed off with me because of that. It *does* cause a lot of unnecessary problems - I realise that. And, yes, it *is* sexist. If WonderWoman herself were to smash down my wall and demand sex with me, and I were to refuse (on account of I wasn't in the mood, or whatever) there'd still be a part of me that would be expecting her to get tearful - and then, cue the guilt.

I know, I know - this is something I should get past. Doesn't make sense. Women are just men who are shorter and have high voices, and have tits but no dicks or goolies, that's all, etc, etc.

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(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/22/2017 1:20:16 PM   
Spiritedsub2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

...

I know, I know - this is something I should get past. Doesn't make sense. Women are just men who are shorter and have high voices, and have tits but no dicks or goolies, that's all, etc, etc.


The more I see and hear from men and women, the less I think the highlighted bit above is at all true.

_____________________________

Don’t grieve. Anything you lose comes round in another form.
~ Rumi

Laughing Dolphin

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/23/2017 2:46:35 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

...

I know, I know - this is something I should get past. Doesn't make sense. Women are just men who are shorter and have high voices, and have tits but no dicks or goolies, that's all, etc, etc.


The more I see and hear from men and women, the less I think the highlighted bit above is at all true.


Really? For me, it's generally worked better to start from the premise that men and women have more similarities than they have differences. But, then, that's me - I think I started with the assumption that women and men were *very* different.


< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 12/23/2017 3:08:40 PM >


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(in reply to Spiritedsub2)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/23/2017 3:02:35 PM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
One thing that you seem to have forgotten is sometimes, when you ask... the answer is yes.

Ummmm..... NO!!

That only applies to those that have a predatory mindset or those that have absolutely no idea of social cues.

If you can't read behavioural cues and have to ask.... the answer is NO.

I'm changing my original answer to you.

I'm just going to ask you a question; what if a person without a "predatory mindset" but just has "absolutely no idea of social cues" and "can't read behavioral cues", isn't that the very definition of someone who has to ask and so aren't you just telling that person that sex with anyone is hopeless and to just give up on the idea?


< Message edited by Milesnmiles -- 12/23/2017 4:08:14 PM >

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/23/2017 3:57:14 PM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
Regarding the risk of predators. There are no sure fire ways of protecting oneself from predators. You can follow all of the BDSM rules of engagement and still find yourself in harms way.

Predators ,are predators because consent means nothing to them or because violating consent is their purpose.

If this isn't obvious, and rationalization comes into play in any way - consider that you might be a predator.

If yes, then go straight to a precinct and have yourself arrested or committed.

If no, then consider seeing someone who can teach you social cues so that you don't inadvertently violate consent.

Otherwise this is probably a no brainer.

I agree, there is no sure fire ways of protecting oneself from predators but as I keep telling you there are a lot of better ways of reducing the chances of it than "depending" on Yes means yes and no, no.

What better ways? If there is no sure way?
Surely you must realize that, even if there is no "sure way", a 99% sure way is better than 10% sure way and that using five or six 10% ways is better than using one 20% way or just using all the ways you can no matter how sure they are.
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
Shit happens. Predators exist.
Yep, pretty sure that's what I've been saying.
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
Risk Aware means one proceeds with the understanding that venturing beyond the fringes of "societal norms" comes with risk.
Yep but honestly, all life comes with risk and you don't have to venture beyond the fringes of "societal norms" to find it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
Communication, Consent (defining the yes and no parameters,) Safe-Calls and other basic protocols are designed to minimize the risk with the knowledge that it cannot mitigate all risk.
I don't believe that I have ever spoken out against using multiple ways of minimizing risk. What I have been speaking out against is this seemingly ubiquitous idea that "yes means yes and no means no" is all you need to protect yourself. It just isn't.
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
I proceed by NOT playing games, my yes means yes and my no means just that.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
Now, that said, I know people play games. I understand that courtship can be a dance of sorts and the hunt and Chase has a bit of blurred boundaries. Body language, inflection, eye contact can all have a voice in the overall courtship ritual and are a form of communication; BUT, IF someone you are interested in communicates NO, well? No means no. This is as much to protect the one pursuing as it is to protect the pursued.
I don't believe that I have disagreed with this either but I have pointed out that there is subset of people who not only don't want their no to mean no but don't even want the option of no and what I have said is these people should taken into consideration when forcing "yes means yes and no, no" on others.

(I also realize that there is a subset of people that do not want to accept no from others and that most are directing their "yes means yes and no, no" posts at these people but those poeple are generally so dense that such posts are wasted on them, which is why have continually suggested using other methods in dealing with them. Also, I'm not talking about them when I mention "No means no". )
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
ETA These are my views and how I perceive things; intended for discussion purposes. Take what you can use, leave the rest.
Thanx, well stated.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/23/2017 4:05:49 PM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shandirra

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Ummmm..... NO!!
That only applies to those that have a predatory mindset or those that have absolutely no idea of social cues.
If you can't read behavioural cues and have to ask.... the answer is NO.


This. ^

The only exceptions are mental, emotional and/or physical incapacity to competently consent. Then the answer is NO!, every single time, even if they say YES.

Now... Can we let these dead horses about consent die off, finally???

Really? Tell me why, if the outcome can be predetermined by "experts", do they go head and play sports? Because the outcome can't be predicted and so the answer is always no if you don't ask but in the real world, if you ask, sometimes the answer is yes.

(in reply to Shandirra)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/23/2017 4:14:12 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

...

I know, I know - this is something I should get past. Doesn't make sense. Women are just men who are shorter and have high voices, and have tits but no dicks or goolies, that's all, etc, etc.


The more I see and hear from men and women, the less I think the highlighted bit above is at all true.

As a youth, I once thought that women were just female men but I was quickly disabused of that idea and have come to wonder if men and women are even of the same species. ;-)

(in reply to Spiritedsub2)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/28/2017 3:58:27 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
One thing that you seem to have forgotten is sometimes, when you ask... the answer is yes.

Ummmm..... NO!!

That only applies to those that have a predatory mindset or those that have absolutely no idea of social cues.

If you can't read behavioural cues and have to ask.... the answer is NO.

I'm changing my original answer to you.

I'm just going to ask you a question; what if a person without a "predatory mindset" but just has "absolutely no idea of social cues" and "can't read behavioral cues", isn't that the very definition of someone who has to ask and so aren't you just telling that person that sex with anyone is hopeless and to just give up on the idea?


Oh what a hapless halfwit.

Not that having sex with anyone is hopeless, no.
Just that if you really can't work it out and have to ask.... then you don't belong on this planet.

Women will make it bloody obvious if they want sex and at that point, you really don't need to ask.
But if there is any doubt whatsoever, then the answer is a firm NO!
To persist and stoop to asking is just plain rude, condescending, and outright offensive.

If you really can't work that out for yourself, seek a proffessional therapist.
Either that or turn yourself in as a potential sexual predator.


_____________________________

If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/28/2017 4:19:27 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

asking is just plain rude, condescending, and outright offensive

Dafuq?

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Not your average bimbo.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/28/2017 11:43:38 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Oh what a hapless halfwit.

Not that having sex with anyone is hopeless, no.
Just that if you really can't work it out and have to ask.... then you don't belong on this planet.

Women will make it bloody obvious if they want sex and at that point, you really don't need to ask.
But if there is any doubt whatsoever, then the answer is a firm NO!
To persist and stoop to asking is just plain rude, condescending, and outright offensive.

If you really can't work that out for yourself, seek a proffessional therapist.
Either that or turn yourself in as a potential sexual predator.
What you are talking about is implied consent and quite a few here will tell you that there is no such thing as "implied consent".

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/29/2017 6:58:44 PM   
longwayhome


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There certainly is such a thing as implied consent. The problem is that there is in whether the implied consent is more accurately imagined consent where the someone thinks (or more maliciously pretends) that consent has been given.

Let's imagine that someone is good-hearted and would never want to do anything another human-being did not consent to, they would be on safer ground judging implied consent where they were in a relationship with someone they knew well and had had many sexual encounters with than they would be with someone they had just met (or knew as a friend or work colleague but not sexually).

Surely it cannot be too great an imposition to actively seek positive consent at first and interpret only a positive yes as a yes and everything else as a no.? In that scenario, getting into any form of consensual non-consent when someone says "no", even if you suspect that they would like it, is arrogance at best and criminal at worst. "I just knew she wanted it, even though she said no" is a line likely to get someone locked up, even if they thought it was true.

Putting too much faith on implied consent is clearly dangerous in all types of ways, bearing in mind that a number of people convicted of rape claim implied consent, in the reported absence of a clear "yes" or "no". The fact that many people are convicted despite using this defence shows clearly the limits of relying on implied consent. Implied consent is of course also the excuse people use for sexually assaulting or raping their wife or long-term partner by saying that consent for them had always been non-verbal so they didn't need a firm "yes". Hell, reputable porn producers often stop scenes at various points to confirm continuing consent, even if all parties had provided actual consent to carrying out certain acts in advance.

So there is such a thing as implied consent. It's just that it's hardly something to relay on if you want to protect potential sexual partners and yourself.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/31/2017 9:13:45 AM   
Milesnmiles


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Joined: 12/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

There certainly is such a thing as implied consent. The problem is that there is in whether the implied consent is more accurately imagined consent where the someone thinks (or more maliciously pretends) that consent has been given.

Let's imagine that someone is good-hearted and would never want to do anything another human-being did not consent to, they would be on safer ground judging implied consent where they were in a relationship with someone they knew well and had had many sexual encounters with than they would be with someone they had just met (or knew as a friend or work colleague but not sexually).

Surely it cannot be too great an imposition to actively seek positive consent at first and interpret only a positive yes as a yes and everything else as a no.? In that scenario, getting into any form of consensual non-consent when someone says "no", even if you suspect that they would like it, is arrogance at best and criminal at worst. "I just knew she wanted it, even though she said no" is a line likely to get someone locked up, even if they thought it was true.

Putting too much faith on implied consent is clearly dangerous in all types of ways, bearing in mind that a number of people convicted of rape claim implied consent, in the reported absence of a clear "yes" or "no". The fact that many people are convicted despite using this defence shows clearly the limits of relying on implied consent. Implied consent is of course also the excuse people use for sexually assaulting or raping their wife or long-term partner by saying that consent for them had always been non-verbal so they didn't need a firm "yes". Hell, reputable porn producers often stop scenes at various points to confirm continuing consent, even if all parties had provided actual consent to carrying out certain acts in advance.

So there is such a thing as implied consent. It's just that it's hardly something to relay on if you want to protect potential sexual partners and yourself.

If you'll notice, I did not say that there is no such thing as implied consent but I have noticed that there quite a few here that have said; "there is no such thing as implied consent" and have in fact have equated implied consent with rape.

I just wish people would make up their minds, what is it; if you have to ask the answer is no or there is no such thing as implied consent?

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 54
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